Fear Not! The BATF is keeping us safe from Assault Garands!

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-11-20 02:15am

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/16/natio ... ner=GOOGLE

Agency Fighting Proposal to Import Old Weapons

By JEFF GERTH and RICHARD W. STEVENSON

WASHINGTON, Nov. 14 — The federal gun control bureau is strongly opposing a proposal to let gun sellers and owners import as many as two million World War II era infantry weapons that were made in the United States and exported to the world's armies decades ago.

The objections from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms come as the State Department is considering the proposal, which is being pressed by a trade association that lobbies for gun importers. The bureau says the idea, which would lift a 50-year-old ban, would flood the market with outdated but deadly weapons that could fall into the hands of criminals and would be hard to regulate.

A letter from the firearms bureau, part of the Treasury Department, warned that the change would prevent it from stopping the criminal use of "particularly dangerous" old guns: pistols that are readily concealed and carbines and Garand rifles, which can be easily converted into automatic weapons. Moreover, the letter warned, the carbine and Garand can fire bullets capable of piercing the soft body armor worn by police officers.

The weapons, exported to Asia, South America and countries elsewhere and still available around the world, have generally not been allowed back into the United States, though there is a legal exception that permits the import of equipment classified as "curio or relics."

The State Department, which by law regulates trade in United States defense equipment, is weighing a proposal made last year by the Firearms Importers' Roundtable Trade Group, which is led by a top dealer in and collector of machine-gun parts and accessories. The group, set up in the wake of import restrictions by the Clinton administration, argues that the imports would be used by collectors, in shooting competitions or for other legitimate purposes.

A briefing paper prepared by the firearm importers says the guns "are not crime guns" or "weapons of choice among criminals," an argument based on the group's analysis of crime reports by the firearms bureau.

But the bureau warned that the change could allow as many as two million weapons, many of them able to shoot the deadlier kinds of bullets, to enter the private commercial market legally for the first time. The bureau cited a recent report of its own that found that 7,243 American-made weapons intended for military use had been used in crimes, even though it was unlawful to re-import most if not all of them.

John P. Malone, the assistant director for firearms and explosives at the bureau, cited this statistic two months ago when he wrote the State Department to oppose the proposal.

A department spokesman declined to discuss the proposal, saying it was still under review.

"It is a matter of interagency discussion, and it would be inappropriate to comment," the spokesman said on the condition of anonymity.

At issue are rifles and handguns sold to United States allies more than 50 years ago. The potential universe, a 1998 federal report says, includes more than 950,000 Garand rifles, more than 1.2 million M-1 carbines and nearly 300,000 M-1911 pistols. A firearms expert who supports the policy change estimates the market at 1.5 million, but says many of them may not be capable of being fired.

It is not known how many of the weapons still work.

The firearms trade group says "there will not be millions of guns flooding the marketplace" because "market forces will control what is imported" and there would be "unusually lengthy" reviews by the firearms bureau and the State Department. The group also says buyers would be subject to the "same requirements that apply when purchasing other firearms," like background checks.

But Mr. Malone, in his letter to the State Department, said the group's proposal "would open the United States commercial market to potentially 2.5 million new weapons" which "A.T.F. generally has no authority to control."

Mr. Malone's letter was provided by an official opposed to the policy change.

The gun trade group was set up in 1994 after the Clinton administration imposed an embargo on the importation of firearms and ammunition from China. The group's goal, according to reports in the specialized gun trade press, is to open United States gun markets and provide as many choices as possible. Commercial manufacturers make firearms similar to the old military models.

The trade group's president is Charles Steen. A profile of Mr. Steen's company, Sarco Inc., in the magazine Small Arms Review, says the business, which is based in Stirling, N.J., and licensed by the firearms bureau, focuses on the accumulation or collection of surplus military material. The profile describes Sarco as "the leader in machine-gun parts and accessories" and "arguably the largest dealer in surplus war material in the country."

Sarco's Web site draws attention to a new feature: "Machine Gun Dave's Machine Gun Page," where the top item is a 1928 Colt commercial water- cooled tripod listed for $1,250.

On June 27, 2001, Mr. Steen's group petitioned the State Department to "lift the import restrictions historically imposed on `obsolete and historic U.S. military small arms, ammunition, and demilitarized equipment,' " according to Mr. Malone's letter.

The trade group's lawyer is Mark Barnes, a leading firearms lobbyist in Washington. Mr. Barnes provided a copy of the trade group's background paper — which echoes its 2001 proposal — but Mr. Steen declined to be interviewed for this article.

After the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the proposal sat idle, but more recently the trade group has met with State Department officials, including once late last summer, a person who attended said.

On Sept. 10, Mr. Malone wrote to Lincoln P. Bloomfield Jr., the assistant secretary of state for political-military affairs, saying that the proposal would "undo over 50 years of established policy governing the transfer and import of these weapons."

Surplus military firearms have been banned from import under federal gun control laws. But in 1984, the Gun Control Act was amended to create an exception: firearms classified as "curio or relics," which include weapons and ammunition more than 50 years old.

Since 1949 there have been strict limits on the ability of foreign governments to distribute equipment they receive under United States military assistance programs. In 1987, the State Department restated its general ban on the initial retransfer of United States military weapons, but created an exception.

Foreign governments could sell to private entities if they could show "significant public interest," including guarantees that the equipment would be used for its intended purpose, such as being placed on "static display in a museum and demilitarized," Mr. Malone's letter said.

Mr. Steen's group maintains that the State Department has interpreted the law too narrowly and should approve as "the rule, rather than the exception," imports of United States military equipment.

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-11-20 02:19am

You sure love your guns, don't you Shep?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-11-20 02:21am

data_link wrote:You sure love your guns, don't you Shep?

What pisses me off is the way that Clinton had millions of rounds
of ammo destroyed, and virtually all of the surplus M-14s destroyed
rather than selling them off to close the budget deficit..

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-11-20 02:23am

ASSAULT GARAND?

That's just fucking moronic. I can just picture criminals running around with M1 Garands, holding up old ladies as we speak ....

There's NO WAY IN HELL you can covert a Garand to fire full auto. And if there is, who the fuck would BOTHER? It's got a tiny clip!!!!

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-11-20 02:24am

MKSheppard wrote:
data_link wrote:You sure love your guns, don't you Shep?
What pisses me off is the way that Clinton had millions of rounds
of ammo destroyed, and virtually all of the surplus M-14s destroyed
rather than selling them off to close the budget deficit..

- Who would buy M-14s?

- What kind of ammunition was it?

- Why would it be enough to close the deficit?

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-11-20 02:25am

MKSheppard wrote:What pisses me off is the way that Clinton had millions of rounds of ammo destroyed, and virtually all of the surplus M-14s destroyed rather than selling them off to close the budget deficit..

Nobody ever said politicians were smart... well okay somebody did say that, but they were shot by people who knew better.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2002-11-20 02:28am

Vympel wrote: - Who would buy M-14s?

- What kind of ammunition was it?

- Why would it be enough to close the deficit?

My Uncle Les. He's been looking for an M-14 for years and Years.

Since all of them were made BEFORE 1986, they'd flood the market
for NFA weaopns, and that's something clinton couldn't abide with,
the fuckwit he was....

And the ammo was milsurplus 7.62 NATO..

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2002-11-20 03:10am

*L* assault Garand???? maybe the carbine with it 20 rnd magazine but not the good ol M-1 with its integral 8 rnd

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2002-11-20 03:30am

I wouldn't mind having a nice M1 in good working order.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-11-20 07:54am

GrandAdmiralPrawn wrote:I wouldn't mind having a nice M1 in good working order.

Yeah, It would be a something rather cool to own.

I don't see the sense in keeping these weapons out the US. Really, they won't make that much difference. Street criminals aren't going to be fighting gang wars with garands.

Mike_6002 · Post by **Mike_6002** » 2002-11-20 07:59am

A M1 Carbine, nice small, and a collectors item me want one, Full Auto M1 Assault Rifle

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-11-20 08:04am

An auto M1? How many rounds did they have? 10?

Mike_6002 · Post by **Mike_6002** » 2002-11-20 08:07am

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:An auto M1? How many rounds did they have? 10?

8 in it's magazine

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-11-20 08:10am

Mike_6002 wrote:
Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:An auto M1? How many rounds did they have? 10?
8 in it's magazine

Wow, that'll be an effective auto gun

Mike_6002 · Post by **Mike_6002** » 2002-11-20 08:11am

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:
Mike_6002 wrote:
Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:An auto M1? How many rounds did they have? 10?
8 in it's magazine

Wow, that'll be an effective auto gun

Just needs a few modfications it's already semi-auto, and just needs 10+ more rounds per mag, and we have a neo-vintage Assault rifle

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-11-20 08:19am

Thanks I'll take a Tompson or better yet an STG-44

Or Better yet a .30Cal MG

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2002-11-20 10:45am

Mr Bean wrote:Thanks I'll take a Tompson or better yet an STG-44

Or Better yet a .30Cal MG

In high school we used to joke that our World History teacher would one day pull out a Browning M2 on his desk to quiet down the class

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2002-11-20 12:46pm

I think it would be neat to own a M-1 from a collectors point of view.

As for the deficit ? Do you mean debt? They are too different things.

If you have a deficit, you reduce spending. Thats the only real way to close the gap. Selling a bunch of old rifles wont do much.

The debt is what we owe other people for the reckless spending of our politicians on both sides of the aisle.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-11-20 02:50pm

TrailerParkJawa wrote:I think it would be neat to own a M-1 from a collectors point of view.

As for the deficit ? Do you mean debt? They are too different things.

If you have a deficit, you reduce spending. Thats the only real way to close the gap. Selling a bunch of old rifles wont do much.

The debt is what we owe other people for the reckless spending of our politicians on both sides of the aisle.

Selling guns would help close the gap by raising the amount of capital that would be on hand. Deficits can be closed by increaseing the availbul funds via taxs or reducing spending.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-11-20 02:52pm

phongn wrote:
Mr Bean wrote:Thanks I'll take a Tompson or better yet an STG-44

Or Better yet a .30Cal MG
In high school we used to joke that our World History teacher would one day pull out a Browning M2 on his desk to quiet down the class

Even after the first couple school shootings my 7th grade History teacher brought in working examples of weapons from every time periods we studied.

GrandMasterTerwynn · Post by **GrandMasterTerwynn** » 2002-11-20 03:03pm

An M-1 Garand? You're kidding me, right? I've seen M-1s, converting one of those to an automatic would be a waste of a perfectly good vintage weapon. Sure you could get a semi-decent rate of fire out of one of those, but it's got a tiny little magazine.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2002-11-20 03:25pm

An M-1 Garand? You're kidding me, right? I've seen M-1s, converting one of those to an automatic would be a waste of a perfectly good vintage weapon. Sure you could get a semi-decent rate of fire out of one of those, but it's got a tiny little magazine.

I think criminals would find it easier to get weapons on the street than worry about M-1's that probably for the most part would end up in the hands of collectors.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-11-20 04:13pm

The M1's a collectors object, and so is the M-14.

Rubberanvil · Post by **Rubberanvil** » 2002-11-20 05:54pm

Mike_6002 wrote:Full Auto M1 Assault Rifle

Not enough ammo to fire more then two seconds, Browning Automatic Rifles are a better choice if you want an American vintage WWII automatic rifle.