Post-Borged Vader really weaken?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I agree. Unfortunately, thats whats factual now.

Fuck him. Its not in the film I saw, and not in the novel I read. His commentaries change incessantly anyway.

[Darth Wong]

It's true; Lucas' off-screen comments since 1977 haven't exactly been consistent. Unless you're deep in denial, you must surely recognize that Lucas has changed his mind about a lot of things and retrofitted parts of the backstory as he went along. He has that right, but it also means that his offscreen comments shouldn't be taken too seriously.

[Shroom Man 777]

If we apply this cyborgization makes baby Jesus cry bullshit, then how come Anakin was so strong after having one of his arms replaced by a robot one?

*punches George Lucas*

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Having limbs cut off hurts the Force?

The former is a bit funny, but perhaps could be a peculiarity involving Force pathways in one's body. This above makes perfect sense. What's so hard to believe that a lifeform is the Union of Soul and Body, and that losing most of your body can't possibly be good for your Force Access?

Moreover, it puts a physical view of the Force over the mystical, something I find infuriating.

In which case, you should have started getting pissed at the ANH novelization, where scientists have investigated it, though not fully understanding its nature (P.80-81). From the very start, it was supposed to be partially explainable and quantifiable. And of course there were those Universal Energy Cages (DE: I know Vympel hates DE but IP apparently not so much), the Force detectors used by the Jedi Hunters, or perhaps even the Sith Alchemy and boosting gear and even the midichlorians. All these indicate a partial scientific understanding of the Force, which in turn implies that the Force itself is partially Physical!

I don't think this is the best literary move (I agree yours would have been the more touching story), but it does make sense and honestly does not offend me.

And what ever happened to: "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter!"

Nice, but one can see the special requirements just for keeping your soul in one piece after the loss of your body (even in ANH I doubt there is anyone that doesn't understand Obi-Wan was a special case). It isn't hard to understand that while we ourselves may be "Luminous Beings", we are desperately reliant on that "crude matter" that's our body.

If we apply this cyborgization makes baby Jesus cry bullshit, then how come Anakin was so strong after having one of his arms replaced by a robot one?

There is that simple fact that a single hand is not comparable to 50% of your body.

[Vympel]

Fuck him. Its not in the film I saw, and not in the novel I read. His commentaries change incessantly anyway.

Dude, it is in the novel you read. That's what I was referring to:

And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow that has destroyed you, but you are so far less than what you were, you are more than half-machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you are strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow.

If it was just George Lucas saying it outside of canon, I wouldn't give a shit. Reading it, one could make the argument that it's Anakin's delusion that he's weakened because of his injuries, but you know, that's a stretch.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Having limbs cut off hurts the Force?

The former is a bit funny, but perhaps could be a peculiarity involving Force pathways in one's body. This above makes perfect sense. What's so hard to believe that a lifeform is the Union of Soul and Body, and that losing most of your body can't possibly be good for your Force Access?

Moreover, it puts a physical view of the Force over the mystical, something I find infuriating.

In which case, you should have started getting pissed at the ANH novelization, where scientists have investigated it, though not fully understanding its nature (P.80-81). From the very start, it was supposed to be partially explainable and quantifiable. And of course there were those Universal Energy Cages (DE: I know Vympel hates DE but IP apparently not so much), the Force detectors used by the Jedi Hunters, or perhaps even the Sith Alchemy and boosting gear and even the midichlorians. All these indicate a partial scientific understanding of the Force, which in turn implies that the Force itself is partially Physical!

I don't think this is the best literary move (I agree yours would have been the more touching story), but it does make sense and honestly does not offend me.

And what ever happened to: "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter!"

Nice, but one can see the special requirements just for keeping your soul in one piece after the loss of your body (even in ANH I doubt there is anyone that doesn't understand Obi-Wan was a special case). It isn't hard to understand that while we ourselves may be "Luminous Beings", we are desperately reliant on that "crude matter" that's our body.

If we apply this cyborgization makes baby Jesus cry bullshit, then how come Anakin was so strong after having one of his arms replaced by a robot one?

There is that simple fact that a single hand is not comparable to 50% of your body.

Kaz, stop with the apologetics. We all know the excuses and mental gymnastics. But it is hardly the preferable or most intelligent reason, and its rather hokey, shitty, and ad hoc in nature.

[Illuminatus Primus]

If it was just George Lucas saying it outside of canon, I wouldn't give a shit. Reading it, one could make the argument that it's Anakin's delusion that he's weakened because of his injuries, but you know, that's a stretch.

I know that. I'm saying the stupid "bionics and amputations fuck the Force" REASON given by GL.

[Vympel]

I know that. I'm saying the stupid "bionics and amputations fuck the Force" REASON given by GL.

Well, that reason is in the novel: 'You are more than half-machine, you are so much less than what you were'. Saying that "bionics" or whatever fuck the force is bollocks, but the horrible injuries obviously do.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I know that. I'm saying the stupid "bionics and amputations fuck the Force" REASON given by GL.

Well, that reason is in the novel: 'You are more than half-machine, you are so much less than what you were'. Saying that "bionics" or whatever fuck the force is bollocks, but the horrible injuries obviously do.

It sounds more like figurative and poignant reflection on his overall tragedy than a technical reason. THAT is why his injuries are significant. They reflect his inner defeat and failure; he is a man in an iron lung with robot limbs because inside he is a broken and embittered man.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Kaz, stop with the apologetics. We all know the excuses and mental gymnastics. But it is hardly the preferable or most intelligent reason, and its rather hokey, shitty, and ad hoc in nature.

Are you saying "I can't possibly like this idea?" I'm sorry, but I actually thought it was pretty good. I didn't have to jump through hoops in my mind, definitely nothing like Stackpole novels or the like. If I think something is truly horrible, I will say so without reservation. But this ain't it.

[Vympel]

It sounds more like figurative and poignant reflection on his overall tragedy than a technical reason. THAT is why his injuries are significant. They reflect his inner defeat and failure; he is a man in an iron lung with robot limbs because inside he is a broken and embittered man.

Possible. Following that, the quote about him not even wanting to reach out and crush the shadow (i.e Palpatine) would tend to him being of two minds.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Kaz, stop with the apologetics. We all know the excuses and mental gymnastics. But it is hardly the preferable or most intelligent reason, and its rather hokey, shitty, and ad hoc in nature.

Are you saying "I can't possibly like this idea?" I'm sorry, but I actually thought it was pretty good. I didn't have to jump through hoops in my mind, definitely nothing like Stackpole novels or the like. If I think something is truly horrible, I will say so without reservation. But this ain't it.

Sometimes I wonder if the only thing which ever bothers you is technical discomforts.

[Darth Wong]

Why is it so "hokey" that a ravaged body would be an impediment to using the Force to its greatest effectiveness?

[Sean Howard]

Yeah, but LIFE is NOT the same thing as body volume or organic autonomy. Lord Vader is a fully functional living thing, and the fact that he has cyborg components which help him survive does not change the fact he is alive.

That's why the Midichlorians thing outraged me so much. Wouldn't a big fat guy have more force potential than Yoda, simply because he has more tissue?

It sucks ass, but Phantom Menace totally dismantled the idea of the Force as purely mystical and pantheist in nature.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Why is it so "hokey" that a ravaged body would be an impediment to using the Force to its greatest effectiveness?

Because Palpatine's body certainly does not suffer much impediment. There is no proportional or known loss from maiming like Anakin suffered in AOTC, and I prefer the mystical view of the Force: "luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."

[Admiral Valdemar]

I thought the lost limbs meant decreased midichlorian count and therefore less presence in the Force?

[Darth Mortis]

Why is it so "hokey" that a ravaged body would be an impediment to using the Force to its greatest effectiveness?

Perhaps he must channel a large amount of his force ability to maintain his life force? Just reaching here....


I still am going with the less living flesh=less blood=less force potential.

[Illuminatus Primus]

I thought the lost limbs meant decreased midichlorian count and therefore less presence in the Force?

There's still no evidence that midichlorians cause the Force or their count causes someone to be able to contact it.

By the extreme physical position you're taking, the physical volume of your body is more important than anything else, and like they said, Yoda should not be powerful as he is.

[Sean Howard]

Why is it so "hokey" that a ravaged body would be an impediment to using the Force to its greatest effectiveness?

Because Palpatine's body certainly does not suffer much impediment. There is no proportional or known loss from maiming like Anakin suffered in AOTC, and I prefer the mystical view of the Force: "luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."

IP, I wish you were right. It seems way more satisfying to say that he just no longer has the passion he once did. He is a shell of a man that is just half-heartedly going through the motions now that he has lost everything.

[Darth Mortis]

Yeah, but LIFE is NOT the same thing as body volume or organic autonomy. Lord Vader is a fully functional living thing, and the fact that he has cyborg components which help him survive does not change the fact he is alive.

That's why the Midichlorians thing outraged me so much. Wouldn't a big fat guy have more force potential than Yoda, simply because he has more tissue?

.

That makes no sense, it's the count not the size of the body.

Yoda could easily have 5 billions times more Midi's than Chewbacca.

[Admiral Valdemar]

There's still no evidence that midichlorians cause the Force or their count causes someone to be able to contact it.

By the extreme physical position you're taking, the physical volume of your body is more important than anything else, and like they said, Yoda should not be powerful as he is.

Aye, but it seems a confusing issue this. I tried to rationalise it by thinking density was important too. That Yoda, despite being smaller, had far denser amounts of those same midichlorians. So even if a normal human is larger, Yoda being so much more adept still has more despite his mass.

Are there any other theories on this?

[Illuminatus Primus]

How about - its not the midichlorians, just like I said? There's no evidence they cause on to be able to touch the Force or that they cause or create it.

[Darth Mortis]

How about - its not the midichlorians, just like I said? There's no evidence they cause on to be able to touch the Force or that they cause or create it.

Yup that's the plot hole, as there is no evidence against it either.

[Sean Howard]

Yeah, but LIFE is NOT the same thing as body volume or organic autonomy. Lord Vader is a fully functional living thing, and the fact that he has cyborg components which help him survive does not change the fact he is alive.

That's why the Midichlorians thing outraged me so much. Wouldn't a big fat guy have more force potential than Yoda, simply because he has more tissue?

.

That makes no sense, it's the count not the size of the body.

Yoda could easily have 5 billions times more Midi's than Chewbacca.

Yeah I get that, but isn't the count like a parts per million type deal? I mean, your body must constantly have to reproduce a certain amount of them, because if they are cells, they periodically die off.

So gaining 100 pounds of fat should make you more powerful right?

[Admiral Valdemar]

They don't have to die off. Neurons don't and your body only has a finite amount of those.