Post-Borged Vader really weaken?

[Petrosjko]

We can bop the issue with 'size matters not'.

Otherwise, the Jedi would be a bunch of Buddha types constantly scarfing ice cream.

[Darth Wong]

Why is it so "hokey" that a ravaged body would be an impediment to using the Force to its greatest effectiveness?

Because Palpatine's body certainly does not suffer much impediment.

So? His body is in much better shape than Anakin's body. Anakin can't even breathe without assistance for fuck's sake.

There is no proportional or known loss from maiming like Anakin suffered in AOTC, and I prefer the mystical view of the Force: "luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."

You are taking an unnecessarily extreme position. The idea that one's use of the Force is limited if his body is ravaged is not incompatible with a power increase between AOTC and ROTS; Anakin simply learned more. Everything in life is a combination of innate ability and learned skill; why should this be any different?

[Sean Howard]

They don't have to die off. Neurons don't and your body only has a finite amount of those.

That's true. Maybe you're born with x number of midichlorians, and thats your allocation for life.

Its still super lame. I hate that there is any physical explanation at all.

I wish they could just leave some things unexplained. Like the whole thing with Jabba not falling for Luke's Jedi Mind Tricks. They had to write in all this crap about Hutts not having midichlorians and being immune to the Force. What a bunch of crap. It couldn't just be that Jabba is particularly strong willed?

I still vote for Vader is only weaker because he doesn't care to be strong any more.

[Darth Wong]

We can bop the issue with 'size matters not'.

Otherwise, the Jedi would be a bunch of Buddha types constantly scarfing ice cream.

I'm sick of hearing this argument, because it makes no sense. There is no indication that you continually acquire more of these things as you get bigger. But that doesn't mean that you won't lose any if you cut off half your body.

[MKSheppard]

Well, I think a lot of vader's powers were sucked down by the agonizing
pain he was in; if you read the ROTJ novelization or something, he tries
to heal his body with the Force...

[Darth Wong]

Well, I think a lot of vader's powers were sucked down by the agonizing pain he was in; if you read the ROTJ novelization or something, he tries to heal his body with the Force...

There is also Yoda's line in TESB about how you must be of sound mind and body to use the Force to its fullest effectiveness.

[Ghost Rider]

For Vader, he was poised near death, this isn't DBZ where such level of injuries are shrugged off and he can go "Cool, I gots to be a Cyborg!!!!". Literally he lost most of his body, the novels tells us barring his noddle he was crisped and for fuck's sake he had enough energy to last until Palpatine came to him.

Just accept that when he lost all his major limbs and got cooked like a roast, he likely destroyed a vast amount of these little suckers with him.

Also for Midi meaning anything then a gauge...remember Qui-Gon's own words?

"They tell us the will of the Force."

The novels goes into description that they are lifeforms that live within everyone and the more you have the better you can hear the Force, never an indication that because you're larger you have more. He even tells Anakin that everyone has them but you need training to allow your mind to hear them. Lucas just tied on a name to his Zen wisdom philobabble about listening to the universe.

Never has he gone and outright said "You know since I only have a MC count of 12K and Obi Wan 13K....we can kick that Sith Lord's ass of only a mere 18K!"

[Darth Mortis]

I agree with Mike here, perhaps they travel by blood (like uber white blood cells) and if you loose a lot of blood (like Anakin) you lose force abilty( like Anakin)

[Sean Howard]

For Vader, he was poised near death, this isn't DBZ where such level of injuries are shrugged off and he can go "Cool, I gots to be a Cyborg!!!!". Literally he lost most of his body, the novels tells us barring his noddle he was crisped and for fuck's sake he had enough energy to last until Palpatine came to him.

Just accept that when he lost all his major limbs and got cooked like a roast, he likely destroyed a vast amount of these little suckers with him.

Also for Midi meaning anything then a gauge...remember Qui-Gon's own words?

"They tell us the will of the Force."

The novels goes into description that they are lifeforms that live within everyone and the more you have the better you can hear the Force, never an indication that because you're larger you have more. He even tells Anakin that everyone has them but you need training to allow your mind to hear them. Lucas just tied on a name to his Zen wisdom philobabble about listening to the universe.

Never has he gone and outright said "You know since I only have a MC count of 12K and Obi Wan 13K....we can kick that Sith Lord's ass of only a mere 18K!"

When I learned of the Midis I felt like thats exactly what they were saying.

This kid has 18/00 STR!! He gets +2 to hit!!1!1one

[MKSheppard]

There is also Yoda's line in TESB about how you must be of sound mind and body to use the Force to its fullest effectiveness.

I don't know about that, I think we've seen Jedi Knights with only half
a body in the EU....

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Well, I think a lot of vader's powers were sucked down by the agonizing
pain he was in; if you read the ROTJ novelization or something, he tries
to heal his body with the Force...

That was in Shadows of the Empire. Vader had to channel virtually all of his wrath and hatred into the Dark Side to experience any momentary heeling, meaning that he literally couldn't do anything else while he was "meditating."

[Illuminatus Primus]

The physical explanation always has holes - why is the Force sensitivity hereditary without genetics? Why cannot Force users bolster their strength by artificially breeding or collecting and then infusing themselves with midichlorians? Why not graft Vader some clone limbs from his own genetic template and give him some new lungs and skin grafts? Surely he could return to his grandeur, if it was simple as making him whole again. And why not nab a few Jedi alive and suck out their midichlorians?

The best solution I think is that midichlorians are caused by Force sensitivity - they do not cause Force sensitivity (remember SW.com says high midi counts MAY mean Force sensitivity or may not; recall Qui-Gon unsure remarks in reference to Anakin's count). That Force sensitivity may be passed hereditarily, but only sometimes, and not genetically. And that Anakin's state of mind and clarity of purpose and passionate convictions, which cannot be repaired by medical science, are to blame for his state of indefinite weakness.

[Ghost Rider]

There is also Yoda's line in TESB about how you must be of sound mind and body to use the Force to its fullest effectiveness.

I don't know about that, I think we've seen Jedi Knights with only half
a body in the EU....

Yes, and they were nothing compared to Skywalker. They could use the Force to suppliment whats's left but they were greatly weakened as such.

You see one in Jedi Knight and another in Dark Empire 2 and Empire's End.

[MKSheppard]

Another thought is, he was weak as hell at the end of ROTS; if you
compare his burned body with what you see in ROTJ; 20 years of
healing would allow his force powers to slowly return to pre-lava level...

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I agree with Mike here, perhaps they travel by blood (like uber white blood cells) and if you loose a lot of blood (like Anakin) you lose force abilty( like Anakin)

If I recall, they're actually part of the cell structure.

[Ghost Rider]

I agree with Mike here, perhaps they travel by blood (like uber white blood cells) and if you loose a lot of blood (like Anakin) you lose force abilty( like Anakin)

If I recall, they're actually part of the cell structure.

Nope, they are seperate living beings as Qui Gon says

Symbionts. Life forms living together for a mutual advantage. Without the midichlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force. Our midi-chlorians constantly speak to us, Annie, telling us the will of the Force.

[Darth Wong]

The physical explanation always has holes - why is the Force sensitivity hereditary without genetics? Why cannot Force users bolster their strength by artificially breeding or collecting and then infusing themselves with midichlorians?

Because the midichlorians will reject them or they will reject the midichlorians? You can't always transplant things. You don't even know where they come from; they apparently entered Shmi Skywalker's body with no real explanation and then left her with the boy, so she didn't gain any powers out of the deal.

Why not graft Vader some clone limbs from his own genetic template and give him some new lungs and skin grafts? Surely he could return to his grandeur, if it was simple as making him whole again. And why not nab a few Jedi alive and suck out their midichlorians?

See above.

The best solution I think is that midichlorians are caused by Force sensitivity - they do not cause Force sensitivity (remember SW.com says high midi counts MAY mean Force sensitivity or may not; recall Qui-Gon unsure remarks in reference to Anakin's count). That Force sensitivity may be passed hereditarily, but only sometimes, and not genetically. And that Anakin's state of mind and clarity of purpose and passionate convictions, which cannot be repaired by medical science, are to blame for his state of indefinite weakness.

Frankly, I think that using his "state of mind" or "clarity of purpose" as an explanation is much weaker than simply attributing it to his mangled body. He is seriously fucked in the head when he sees Obi-Wan standing on the landing ramp of Padme's ship, but that doesn't weaken him.

[Sean Howard]

The best solution I think is that midichlorians are caused by Force sensitivity - they do not cause Force sensitivity

I like this idea.

Midichlorians could also be a type of cell that gets created like cancer, with the force being the carcinogen.

Ok bad example, but it could be that its not the midis doing anything, they're just a symptom of being force sensitive.

[Admiral Valdemar]

If I recall, they're actually part of the cell structure.

The first thing I thought when I heard of this new thing in Episode I was "He's obviously just read about mitochondria", because the spelling and idea is similar.

Mitochondria in biology 101 are basically symbiotic bacteria that went into larger cells millions of years back and gave us the modern cells we have today. They are why we can be macroscale beings; all cells working in unison with the energy boost these symbionts give us.

Likewise, it would seem midichlorians perform the same role but where the Force is concerned. It may not be a case of genetics, at least purely, hence why they can't just clone limbs for Vader and get his capability back (which may not have worked for the mental problems he already acquired anyway).

[Darth Wong]

The best solution I think is that midichlorians are caused by Force sensitivity - they do not cause Force sensitivity

I like this idea.

Midichlorians could also be a type of cell that gets created like cancer, with the force being the carcinogen.

Ok bad example, but it could be that its not the midis doing anything, they're just a symptom of being force sensitive.

This explanation completely falls apart when you attempt to explain how the fuck Luke inherited his Force ability from his father. There must be some kind of physical cause involved; any explanation which flatly denies this is fucking ostrich head-in-sand material.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Because the midichlorians will reject them or they will reject the midichlorians? You can't always transplant things. You don't even know where they come from; they apparently entered Shmi Skywalker's body with no real explanation and then left her with the boy, so she didn't gain any powers out of the deal.

Are you suggesting unicellular organisms are intelligent? And she did have midichlorians inside her already. Qui-Gon says all living things contain them.

Frankly, I think that using his "state of mind" or "clarity of purpose" as an explanation is much weaker than simply attributing it to his mangled body. He is seriously fucked in the head when he sees Obi-Wan standing on the landing ramp of Padme's ship, but that doesn't weaken him.

Yes, but he's not a defeatist in his head. Being mentally ill does not effect ones apitude in the Force, but as Nic Gilliard said, Anakin believes he is invincible before the Mustafar duel. Afterward, he was defeated by Obi-Wan, his entire reason for acquiring the powers - Padme - is dead, he has lost friend, Republic, and his own dignity, independence, and has been disfigured and maimed. Every motivation he has ever had has been torn away from him. He's just submitted to Palpatine now.

[Illuminatus Primus]

This explanation completely falls apart when you attempt to explain how the fuck Luke inherited his Force ability from his father. There must be some kind of physical cause involved; any explanation which flatly denies this is fucking ostrich head-in-sand material.

Why must there? The Force was supposed to be mystical; perhaps proximity to Anakin's vergence in the Force stimulates his own strength.

[Darth Mortis]

The best solution I think is that midichlorians are caused by Force sensitivity - they do not cause Force sensitivity

I like this idea.

Midichlorians could also be a type of cell that gets created like cancer, with the force being the carcinogen.

Ok bad example, but it could be that its not the midis doing anything, they're just a symptom of being force sensitive.

This explanation completely falls apart when you attempt to explain how the fuck Luke inherited his Force ability from his father. There must be some kind of physical cause involved; any explanation which flatly denies this is fucking ostrich head-in-sand material.

Raised Hand, Oh oh oh!! Could it be becuase of the prophecy?

[Darth Wong]

Are you suggesting unicellular organisms are intelligent? And she did have midichlorians inside her already. Qui-Gon says all living things contain them.

But she does not have this anomalously high count; that passed into her son. And uni-cellular (actually sub-cellular IIRC) organisms do not have to be intelligent in order to be controlled by the Force. If the Force can impregnant women out of thin air and smash battle droids and keep people alive, I don't see why it can't influence the movement of little sub-cellular organisms.

Yes, but he's not a defeatist in his head. Being mentally ill does not effect ones apitude in the Force, but as Nic Gilliard said, Anakin believes he is invincible before the Mustafar duel. Afterward, he was defeated by Obi-Wan, his entire reason for acquiring the powers - Padme - is dead, he has lost friend, Republic, and his own dignity, independence, and has been disfigured and maimed. Every motivation he has ever had has been torn away from him. He's just submitted to Palpatine now.

No, he seeks ultimate power for himself. That is his new ambition, laid out clearly in the ANH and TESB novelizations. He does not suffer from a lack of clarity, at least not beyond the short term.

[Darth Wong]

This explanation completely falls apart when you attempt to explain how the fuck Luke inherited his Force ability from his father. There must be some kind of physical cause involved; any explanation which flatly denies this is fucking ostrich head-in-sand material.

Why must there? The Force was supposed to be mystical; perhaps proximity to Anakin's vergence in the Force stimulates his own strength.

And Padme got nothing from prolonged proximity despite bending over for him on a regular basis? There is obviously some kind of physical connection, either genetics or midichlorians. And genetics seem rather unlikely given the fact that Jedi seem to randomly span countless different species.