Post-Borged Vader really weaken?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-05-20 02:40pm

Darth Wong wrote:No, he seeks ultimate power for himself. That is his new ambition, laid out clearly in the ANH and TESB novelizations. He does not suffer from a lack of clarity, at least not beyond the short term.

And who says he hasn't recovered power by the OT? He is poised and prepared to overthrow Palpatine in ROTJ, again.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2005-05-20 02:41pm

I wonder what the actual prerequisites are for being a true Force sensitive person. I've never really thought about it, but it doesn't strike me as being a case of "Congrats, you got the gene for being a Jedi!" and since the Force itself seems to be an entity of sorts, some ethereal connection exists.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-05-20 02:42pm

Darth Wong wrote:And Padme got nothing from prolonged proximity despite bending over for him on a regular basis? There is obviously some kind of physical connection, either genetics or midichlorians. And genetics seem rather unlikely given the fact that Jedi seem to randomly span countless different species.

She is already alive and matured to adulthood; proximity to certain chemicals and radiation has very different effects on the developing fetus than it does on an already adult human? Why cannot exposure to the Force be similar?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-05-20 02:45pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:And Padme got nothing from prolonged proximity despite bending over for him on a regular basis? There is obviously some kind of physical connection, either genetics or midichlorians. And genetics seem rather unlikely given the fact that Jedi seem to randomly span countless different species.
She is already alive and matured to adulthood; proximity to certain chemicals and radiation has very different effects on the developing fetus than it does on an already adult human? Why cannot exposure to the Force be similar?

So why can't Sith Lords run around making baby Sith at will by simply kidnapping infants and using the Force around them?

Darth Mortis · Post by **Darth Mortis** » 2005-05-20 02:47pm

Well, actually could they? I mean, it would seem they have better things to do than spout kids, but I think that's at least conceivable (no pun intended). At least Palpatine would have you believe that.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2005-05-20 02:50pm

Training an apprentice is one thing, but I doubt they can simply inflict Force powers at will on just anyone. Only those the Force itself seems to have chosen are able to become true users.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-05-20 02:50pm

Darth Mortis wrote:Well, actually could they? I mean, it would seem they have better things to do than spout kids, but I think that's at least conceivable (no pun intended). At least Palpatine would have you believe that.

It would make you wonder why Darth Plagueius had to learn some kind of fantastic new ability just to make an infant Sith if he could do it so easily by simply "exposing" any infant to his powers.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-05-20 02:54pm

Darth Wong wrote:So why can't Sith Lords run around making baby Sith at will by simply kidnapping infants and using the Force around them?

Well, according to the EU, to a certain extent, very powerful Sith Lords can forcibly awaken some level of Force sensitivity in those born without it artificially.

However, again, the influence on a developing human by outside factors is much more prounounced during pregnancy and early pregnancy than otherwise. Put isotreninin in a first trimester pregnant mother and a 1 week old baby and wait a year and the difference will be significant.

If you take my view that the Force causes midichlorians as opposed to the other way around - perhaps midichlorian counts develop predominantly during the early-to-mid phases of pregnancy.

Darth Mortis · Post by **Darth Mortis** » 2005-05-20 02:55pm

The Code of the Sith forbids this type of activity does it not (only two at a time) , and I am pretty convinced that Palpatine was a rather liberal Sith, not following the path directly down the middle. Perhaps it because they could not be assed to wait 8 years to start training.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-05-20 02:56pm

Darth Wong wrote:It would make you wonder why Darth Plagueius had to learn some kind of fantastic new ability just to make an infant Sith if he could do it so easily by simply "exposing" any infant to his powers.

Except he did not make Anakin unless Maul was trained from very very young childhood to adulthood and Sith Lorddom inside nine years. There's not enough time for Plagueis to make Anakin, be knocked-off by Sidious, for Sidious to find and acquire Maul, and then train him through to adulthood before TPM.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2005-05-20 02:57pm

So those that can use the Force are essentially picked by the Force itself and the midichlorians are simply a byproduct, a gauge even, for how adept they are?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-05-20 02:58pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:So those that can use the Force are essentially picked by the Force itself and the midichlorians are simply a byproduct, a gauge even, for how adept they are?

Yes, that's what I always assumed. Midichlorians seem particularly entuned to the Living Force, and would multiply in excess where it was concentrated, i.e., in Force sensitive individuals.

Of course it is tempting that the Force is a willful, intelligent entity itself, which removes the need for any external mechanisms. Of course then the constant ad hoc explanation for everything inevitably becomes "the Force willed it."

Darth Mortis · Post by **Darth Mortis** » 2005-05-20 02:59pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:It would make you wonder why Darth Plagueius had to learn some kind of fantastic new ability just to make an infant Sith if he could do it so easily by simply "exposing" any infant to his powers.
Except he did not make Anakin unless Maul was trained from very very young childhood to adulthood and Sith Lorddom inside nine years. There's not enough time for Plagueis to make Anakin, be knocked-off by Sidious, for Sidious to find and acquire Maul, and then train him through to adulthood before TPM.

How long did Luke Train? 4years?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-05-20 03:00pm

Darth Mortis wrote:How long did Luke Train? 4years?

The EU and I'm pretty sure the novelisation tells us that Maul was trained from near-infancy to adulthood.

Darth Mortis · Post by **Darth Mortis** » 2005-05-20 03:02pm

And what if his species grows at a faster rate that a standard human, It could be plausible, yes?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2005-05-20 03:03pm

Darth Mortis wrote:And what if his species grows at a faster rate that a standard human, It could be plausible, yes?

He clearly is a human subspeices and the aforementioned sources give him a human life cycle.

kheegster · Post by **kheegster** » 2005-05-20 03:04pm

Darth Mortis wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:It would make you wonder why Darth Plagueius had to learn some kind of fantastic new ability just to make an infant Sith if he could do it so easily by simply "exposing" any infant to his powers.
Except he did not make Anakin unless Maul was trained from very very young childhood to adulthood and Sith Lorddom inside nine years. There's not enough time for Plagueis to make Anakin, be knocked-off by Sidious, for Sidious to find and acquire Maul, and then train him through to adulthood before TPM.
How long did Luke Train? 4years?

Luke was nowhere the Force user Maul was.

And why is everyone assuming that Darth Maul's species has similar life-spans to humans? Perhaps Maul is only about 10 years old during TPM?

Darth Mortis · Post by **Darth Mortis** » 2005-05-20 03:05pm

What the hell are you talking about? Luke would own Maul.

Also, A gorilla is human like and it has a distinct lifespan.

McC · Post by **McC** » 2005-05-20 03:06pm

Maul is a Zabrak.

Also, why is it so conclusive that Force aptitude isn't genetic?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2005-05-20 03:09pm

McC wrote:Maul is a Zabrak.

Also, why is it so conclusive that Force aptitude isn't genetic?

Because then, like we've said, it would be a case of Sidious et al simply cloning as many Sith as they wanted rather than even bother with Clonetroopers. Since I don't see a Sith army anywhere from Kamino, it's simply not as cut and dry as just being genetics.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-05-20 03:12pm

MKSheppard wrote:Another thought is, he was weak as hell at the end of ROTS; if you
compare his burned body with what you see in ROTJ; 20 years of
healing would allow his force powers to slowly return to pre-lava level...

I don't know about one in Dark Empire, but Jedi Knight's Maw was in better shape than Anakin. Sure, he had no legs, but he was at least able to breathe unaided.

kheegster · Post by **kheegster** » 2005-05-20 03:13pm

Darth Mortis wrote:What the hell are you talking about? Luke would own Maul.

Also, A gorilla is human like and it has a distinct lifespan.

Luke would own Maul? Maul held his own against two Jedi knights simultaneously, then killed Qui-Gon before narrowly losing to Obi Wan. Luke could barely hold up against the crippled Darth Vader, and never looked completely comfortable with his lightsaber.

Darth Mortis · Post by **Darth Mortis** » 2005-05-20 03:15pm

I along with 99% of the world scratch our heads at your statement.

Luke is the choosen ONE, period.

Luke has powers nobody else has EVER had.

Maul was a good fighter, however how long would he of lasted against Yoda?

Oh yeah, he's dead, killed by a Jedi.

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-05-20 03:16pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:And who says he hasn't recovered power by the OT? He is poised and prepared to overthrow Palpatine in ROTJ, again.

Yes. He has undoubtedly advanced in skill since RotS. Skill and learning can trump raw force power. See Yoda vs Dooku.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-05-20 03:17pm

Darth Mortis wrote:What the hell are you talking about? Luke would own Maul.

Also, A gorilla is human like and it has a distinct lifespan.

Stop behaving like a wanker.

kheegan wrote:And why is everyone assuming that Darth Maul's species has similar life-spans to humans? Perhaps Maul is only about 10 years old during TPM?

Because we know how old Maul was and how long he was trained. We also know what Zabrak lifespans are, and there's nothing that states they age any faster than humans.