Plagueis and Sideous (SPOLIERS)

[Darth Fanboy]

There was killing Sidious (quite possibly within Anakin's ability at this stage. By the time he's on Mustafar, he is confident of his ability to do so) available to him though.

I agree he could have done it, I disagree that it was an option since the entire point of Anakin's turning to the Dark Side was to get the knowledge from Palpatine to save Padme.

Edit:

Id love to see a poll actually on the "Child of Force" vs. "Created by Sith" debate. With an "Other" option as well.

[Karza]

I don't really believe that Plagueis was even capable of what Palpatine claimed. Just a lie to lure Anakin.

[Isolder74]

I don't really believe that Plagueis was even capable of what Palpatine claimed. Just a lie to lure Anakin.

I agree. Since when does a Sith ever tell the truth? Dath Sidious has been lying to his aprentices and his allies this whole time. When Vader arrives at the lava planet, they are shocked when Datrh Vader cuts them apart. This whole time Darth Sidious has been playing both side as a patsy. I think that even the cones were intended for one thing only, destroying the Jedi. After all only a clone could have an order like Order 66 encoded into him. If Cody was a real soldier I doudt that he would have been able to obey such and order. After all he owes his life to Obi Wan Kenobi! Would you be able to make such a betrayal?

In the Senate he tells them that Mace attacked him when its clearly the other way around! He tells Maul he is reqady to face 2 jedi, when it is now obvious he was not. He does not tell Darth Tayranus what he is really up to either.

If Sidious is really Plagiuos' apprentice, then his 'legend' was told for one reason only. He knew Anikin's 'problem' which he may have even been feeding him on purpose with the Dark Side, using his true dream about his mother as a way to confirm it. Perhaps his mother's death was influenced by him in the first place. It find it telling that Padma's death is actually a result of Anakin's turn to the Dark Side.

[kheegster]

In the Senate he tells them that Mace attacked him when its clearly the other way around! He tells Maul he is reqady to face 2 jedi, when it is now obvious he was not.

The fight between Maul and Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan was almost a victory for Maul, only his arrogance led to his death.

[Isolder74]

In the Senate he tells them that Mace attacked him when its clearly the other way around! He tells Maul he is reqady to face 2 jedi, when it is now obvious he was not.

The fight between Maul and Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan was almost a victory for Maul, only his arrogance led to his death.

He almost won by having to seperate the two jedi

[NecronLord]

I agree he could have done it, I disagree that it was an option since the entire point of Anakin's turning to the Dark Side was to get the knowledge from Palpatine to save Padme.

I would kill him for stringing me along like that. Hell according to the novel, that was the first thing he tried when his head cleared after the borging.

[Darth Wong]

I don't really believe that Plagueis was even capable of what Palpatine claimed. Just a lie to lure Anakin.

I agree. Since when does a Sith ever tell the truth?

Surprisingly often, actually. And artificial interference seems a more palatable explanation than the Force itself just arbitrarily deciding to create a child.

[Isolder74]

I don't really believe that Plagueis was even capable of what Palpatine claimed. Just a lie to lure Anakin.

I agree. Since when does a Sith ever tell the truth?

Surprisingly often, actually. And artificial interference seems a more palatable explanation than the Force itself just arbitrarily deciding to create a child.

They only seem to tell the truth when it suits them. Then they never actually tell the whole truth but the part of it that suits their needs at the time.

I must admit that Obi Wan didn't tell Luke the whole truth about his father but would Luke have beleived the whole truth?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

He almost won by having to seperate the two jedi

I just got to rewatch TPM recently and he seemed to be doing quite OK before he got to his Separating Walls (IIRC the novelization also suggests he was holding his own quite well). Besides, the active use of terrain is part of good strategy, and it was his skill that ensured the separation could take place.

The fact was, he did manage to maneuver into a winning position, but he spent too long cackling (mentally) and got sliced by a lucky shot.

[Lord Poe]

Well, that boils down to opinion. I think the idea that Anakin was created by a Sith is lame, and a bit far reaching.

All we're going off is a vague reference by Palpy, that we can't even confirm to be true or not. In fact, it's very likely that he was just telling Anakin what he wanted to hear.

The point is moot. That was Lucas' intent all along. That's why midi-chlorians were introduced in the first place. Palpatine comes right out and says he created Anakin in earlier drafts of the ROTS script.

[Master of Ossus]

The point is moot. That was Lucas' intent all along. That's why midi-chlorians were introduced in the first place. Palpatine comes right out and says he created Anakin in earlier drafts of the ROTS script.

Lucas has the right to change what he will show, at least up until the release of any film (and, he would argue, even after). Need I remind you of the various iterations of the original trilogy's scripts? They have no bearing on what was actually shown, and what Palpatine says in the Opera House cannot in and of itself be accepted as proof that he created Skywalker. There simply isn't enough evidence to rule definitively either way.

[Lord Poe]

The point is moot. That was Lucas' intent all along. That's why midi-chlorians were introduced in the first place. Palpatine comes right out and says he created Anakin in earlier drafts of the ROTS script.

Lucas has the right to change what he will show, at least up until the release of any film (and, he would argue, even after). Need I remind you of the various iterations of the original trilogy's scripts? They have no bearing on what was actually shown, and what Palpatine says in the Opera House cannot in and of itself be accepted as proof that he created Skywalker. There simply isn't enough evidence to rule definitively either way.

Need I remind you that there is absolutely nothing in ROTS to indicate Palpatine DIDN'T create Anakin? "I have no idea how you were created, Anakin!" Nope, its not there.

The only line Palpatine uses on Anakin after he seduces him to the Dark Side is telling him "together we will learn the secret", which is akin to stringing Anakin along.

[Kamakazie Sith]

The point is moot. That was Lucas' intent all along. That's why midi-chlorians were introduced in the first place. Palpatine comes right out and says he created Anakin in earlier drafts of the ROTS script.

And perhaps George Lucas decided that he didn't want that, and that's why he removed it from the script.

Need I remind you that there is absolutely nothing in ROTS to indicate Palpatine DIDN'T create Anakin? "I have no idea how you were created, Anakin!" Nope, its not there.

The only line Palpatine uses on Anakin after he seduces him to the Dark Side is telling him "together we will learn the secret", which is akin to stringing Anakin along.

Like MoO said, there isn't enough evidence to rule either way. Just because there isn't evidence against it doesn't mean that it did happen. There has to be evidence for it.

[Taran_Wanderer]

I kinda like the "Immaculate Connception" bit, coupled with the prophecy. One might think of the Force creating Anakin as a concentration of Light to counter the Dark in Palpatine.

[Lord Revan]

the main problems with the Sith creating Anakin is that it's far from certain that any Jedi would find Anakin at right time (and not too early or too late) and Dath Plageuis did know secrect of immortaly, so it's possilbe he lied to Sidious in first place. There just too many "what if"s in the Sith theory.

[Drooling Iguana]

the main problems with the Sith creating Anakin is that it's far from certain that any Jedi would find Anakin at right time (and not too early or too late) and Dath Plageuis did know secrect of immortaly, so it's possilbe he lied to Sidious in first place. There just too many "what if"s in the Sith theory.

Maybe Plagueis created Anakin, Sideous caught wind of it and thought "oh shit, he's preparing his own custom-grown super-Sith to replace me" which prompted him to kill Plagueis in his sleep and start looking for Anakin.

[Lord Revan]

still too many "what if"s unless it test by Plageuis that went wrong (Anakin could have been killed naytime pre or post TPM and shoot the plan to hell).

[Kamakazie Sith]

the main problems with the Sith creating Anakin is that it's far from certain that any Jedi would find Anakin at right time (and not too early or too late) and Dath Plageuis did know secrect of immortaly, so it's possilbe he lied to Sidious in first place. There just too many "what if"s in the Sith theory.

Not only that, but if you watch TPM it doesn't seem like the Queen escaping is part of Palpatine's plan at all.

[Duckie]

Not only that, but if you watch TPM it doesn't seem like the Queen escaping is part of Palpatine's plan at all.

Darth Wong addresses that on his Analysis page for Episode I- it seems like he altered the plan in mid-flight when the Feds bungled the operation and still managed to improve it.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Not only that, but if you watch TPM it doesn't seem like the Queen escaping is part of Palpatine's plan at all.

Darth Wong addresses that on his Analysis page for Episode I- it seems like he altered the plan in mid-flight when the Feds bungled the operation and still managed to improve it.

My point is that he couldn't have planned for Anakin to end up in the hands of the Jedi. If everything would have gone to plan then Anakin would still be on Tatooine.

[Drooling Iguana]

still too many "what if"s unless it test by Plageuis that went wrong (Anakin could have been killed naytime pre or post TPM and shoot the plan to hell).

Plagueis may have been planning to retrieve Anakin as an infant and start training him right away before Sideous killed him. Unfortunately, Plagueis never told Sideous where Anakin was, so he spent nine years searching for him before the Jedi stumbled upon him.

[Currald]

Here's another possible scenario. Plagueis made several of these "Chosen One wannabes." Most of them were born in the Republic, and Palpatine was able to get wind of them and destroy them before the Jedi got wise. Perhaps routine testing of potential Jedi is administer by a governmental agency that Palpatine managed to suborn, so he got the information before the Jedi did. Anakin, being outside of the Republic, wasn't detected by anyone except when chance (or the will of the Force, if you prefer) brought Padme's party to Tatooine. I can't imagine that Palpatine would deliberately allow such a resource languish on some backwater, out of any supervision or control.

[18-Till-I-Die]

I dont, personally, buy this 'Sith Creationism' thing. It's just too...far reaching. I have less trouble beleiving in one man castinga shroud of darkside energy over the entire Jedi Order, which is in and of itself kind of unbeleiveable, than i do one man singlehandedly manipulating EVERY event to his favor. I mean, one mistake and it all come scrashing down. Anakin was a slave, what if he is abused and killed? What if he gets caught in a pod-racer engine, or mamed by a malfunctioning machine? What if he tries to escape and is killed? No one, i think, is that good that they can have EVERY possibility planed for. Even counting Palpy's precog, he'd have to have agents everywhere, for years, to track and protect Anakin to make it all work out.

It seems only slightly less unbeleiveable that the Force, which has shown to be tied to some kind of cell life forms (Midichlorians) any way, might have spontaneously caused a mutation/conception to create a 'Chosen One' wannabe of a sort, though the huge plot hole there is if he isnt the Chosen One and Luke is then why would teh Force create Anakin at all?

The more i think about it the more i wish GL had just come straight out and had Palpatine say "Anakin, i am your father!" or something and just say like "Yeah i did your mom, freaky eh?" as it would have made everything far more easy to explain. In that respect, he's just Palpatine's bastard love child who has his father's great power and so was mistaken for teh Chosen One when he's just a reeeealy powerful Sith. That's be much more easy to swallow. Just my two cents.

[Perinquus]

I don't really believe that Plagueis was even capable of what Palpatine claimed. Just a lie to lure Anakin.

I agree. Since when does a Sith ever tell the truth?

Surprisingly often, actually. And artificial interference seems a more palatable explanation than the Force itself just arbitrarily deciding to create a child.

I agree. Moreover, the Sith are expert deceivers. And the best lies are those that are not complete falsehood, but rather those that mix truth with untruth, the better to deceive. The very best liars either tell part of the truth, in order to mislead others to an incorrect conclusion; or sometimes, they tell the complete truth, but tell it so unconvincingly as to mislead others into believing it to be a lie. The Sith, as well as the Jedi, have canonically exhibited superhuman powers using the Force. Why is it so hard to believe that beings who have been observed to absorb and harmlessly dissipate incredibly lethal energies, telekinetically manipulate immense mass, successfully look into other time periods and perceive future events, sense events occuring the length of a galaxy away, and exhibit numerous other supernatural powers can manipulate biological material in such a way as to artificially stimulate a healthy, fertile human female to conceive a child?

[SCVN 2812]

To be fair 18, we really don't know how much exactly was part of Palpatine's original plan and how much he improvised. Most likely he had contingency plans for his contingency plans and didn't so much create all of the events in the prequel trilogy as use them to his advantage.

Entrenched beauracracy is a plague that is hard to take out of democracy, when leaders feel there is no threat to their position, they can exploit their position. Its just a matter of Palpatine figuring out what makes the most powerful ideaological groupings within the Senate tick and turning their motivations to his long term benefit and their short term gain. Allying himself with organizations fearful of big business and promoting their legislature which cuts into the profit margins of the large, armed economic consortiums makes Palpatine a popular figure among both the people whom he can be seen as crusading for their freedom from corporate oppression and making sure the big businesses give back what they take. At the same time, he enrages said businesses and makes them more hostile towards most anything else he does.

After a decade in which the armed corporations have been fleeced and irritated, the Trade Federation most of all since they now have a reputation as being oppressors of helpless and peaceful worlds and the rise of a popular and eloquent counter to Palpatine, the scene is set for civil war. And all Sidious really had to do was find someone who could do exactly what he had done in the Senate as Palpatine except for the economic interests the Senate under Palpatine and even before Palpatine had alienated.