Jedi power ranking and discussion

[Rommie2006]

My Justifications:
Anakin Skywalker at the height of his power is undoubtedly the post POWERFUL Jedi/Sith ever. However, he is probably the most STUPID and OVERCONFIDENT Jedi/Sith, which explains why he lost to Obi-wan at the end.

Honestly, I don't even understand exactly what happened at the end. Obi-Wan said something about him getting the "high ground" (even though it wasn't much higher in elevation than the floating platform Anakin is still standing on). Anakin blathered something about underestimating him, attacked and something happened and he was rolling down into the lava.

Me too. But my guess Anakin was so full up in his head, that he jumped straight right at Obi-Wan. Come on... if I needed to jump, I'll prob jump to the left or right or somewhere below where Obi-Wan cant slice my limbs. OR if I were a smart Sith, I'll call it quits... Live to fight another day.

Mace Windu should come in 2nd. He manage to kick the crap out of Darth Sidious. And don't give me the crap that old Palps was faking it... he started faking his weakness when Anakin arrived, but not before!

I think that part was "set-up". A fight has to look natural. Even Mace Windu would have realized something was badly wrong if Palpy had been tying or winning , then as soon as the door opens and Anakin walks in Palpy starts losing. It just won't look right.

Letting Mace Windu win will also let that arrogant SOB get his head fuller with blood, so he'd attack more aggressively, making him look all the more pathetic and hoping Anakin will fall. The last scene where Palpy goes "POWER!!!" and zaps Mace pretty much says it all. I still can't stop laughing.

You have a point, but are you suggesting that he purposedly lost the lightsaber duel? How did he know Anakin was going to show up? What IF Anakin was delayed/held up? I disagree. I think he definitely lost the saber duel. But then again this debate is going on everywhere. I admit I like Mace though, I want him to win...

Darth Maul was a twirly double-bladed bitch it's quite certain at a more mature Obi-Wan would beat him up. He managed to take down Qui-Gon though.

But Qui-Gon is no slouch himself. Obi-Wan mentions if Qui-Gon had been more "politically reliable" he would have made the Council. He also did manage to hold his soul long enough to find and learn the Whillis Process.

The Jedi Council is not made up of the most powerful Jedi in the Order. I think they were kinda "voted" in. I believe Jedi Masters are "elected" into a council based on many factors - skills, special talents, wisdom, etc. So we cant for sure say that Qui-Gon is a good duelist cause he was shortlisted to be on the Jedi council.

AND finally we have Luke. Untrained boy.

But he beat Darth Vader. Shouldn't that count for something?

Good point. The problem is Luke(in ROTJ) is that we only see him fight on Jedi/Sith, that is Vader, and Vader was most likely holding back. Remember he still hoped to turn his son to the dark side, and usurp the throne together? However, I believe Luke has never received any form of lightsaber training before so I'm doubtful if he could stand up to a real Jedi/Sith Master.

[Stofsk]

My Justifications:
Anakin Skywalker at the height of his power is undoubtedly the post POWERFUL Jedi/Sith ever. However, he is probably the most STUPID and OVERCONFIDENT Jedi/Sith, which explains why he lost to Obi-wan at the end.

Honestly, I don't even understand exactly what happened at the end. Obi-Wan said something about him getting the "high ground" (even though it wasn't much higher in elevation than the floating platform Anakin is still standing on). Anakin blathered something about underestimating him, attacked and something happened and he was rolling down into the lava.

Me too. But my guess Anakin was so full up in his head, that he jumped straight right at Obi-Wan. Come on... if I needed to jump, I'll prob jump to the left or right or somewhere below where Obi-Wan cant slice my limbs. OR if I were a smart Sith, I'll call it quits... Live to fight another day.

He has the high ground: IE he has a 'tactical advantage'. If you recall, the entire duel was fought pretty much on equal standing. They clash and it's a standoff, but that was the point Obi-wan gained a clear advantage over Anakin.

He also tried to reason with him. Also, what was Anakin going to do? He couldn't jump anywhere except through Obi-wan. He couldn't wait Obi-wan out, and Obi-wan couldn't let him escape.

AND finally we have Luke. Untrained boy.

Incorrect. Luke was trained; this forms a quite significant portion of ESB's main plot.

You don't get it outright in the movie, but the novelisation makes it explicit: the Jedi teaching is flawed, and Yoda admits it to himself as he's dueling Sidious.

But he beat Darth Vader. Shouldn't that count for something?

Good point. The problem is Luke(in ROTJ) is that we only see him fight on Jedi/Sith, that is Vader, and Vader was most likely holding back. Remember he still hoped to turn his son to the dark side, and usurp the throne together? However, I believe Luke has never received any form of lightsaber training before so I'm doubtful if he could stand up to a real Jedi/Sith Master.

Lord Vader is a 'real' Sith Lord, and he stands up to him twice, the last time he beats him easily.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

You have a point, but are you suggesting that he purposedly lost the lightsaber duel? How did he know Anakin was going to show up? What IF Anakin was delayed/held up? I disagree. I think he definitely lost the saber duel. But then again this debate is going on everywhere. I admit I like Mace though, I want him to win...

Probably. Sidious could almost certainly sense something like Anakin coming his way, and being the Great Schemer and Predictor, probably figured that this was gonna happen as he all but told Anakin he was a Sith Lord.

If he was held up for too long, I suppose he can change his attack power on his Force Lightning to fry Mace like he did in the end.

Honestly, I'd admit I didn't like Mace. I didn't particularly like him for some reason since I saw him in TPM. In AOTC he proves he's a tactical dolt with his handling of Dooku, leading to the near extermination of 200 Jedi (of only 10,000). One would think this would humble him, but it apparently didn't. For some reason I don't like the sound of his "shatterpoint" ability even though I'm still not exactly sure what that does and does not entail. ROTS makes this worse (especially having read Publius' stuff before going to the cinema). Basically, if any Jedi deserved that comedic, anime-style ending he got, he did.

The Jedi Council is not made up of the most powerful Jedi in the Order. I think they were kinda "voted" in. I believe Jedi Masters are "elected" into a council based on many factors - skills, special talents, wisdom, etc. So we cant for sure say that Qui-Gon is a good duelist cause he was shortlisted to be on the Jedi council.

He doesn't seem to have any ultra-rare special abilities. He doesn't see shatterpoints. He doesn't have a special Force attack called Velmacite or whatever (I understand it is an attack that can suppress an opponent's life responses). He doesn't have a "special" understanding like that other Yodaish creature who got into the Council without even learning the lightsaber... so he's probably picked for a good overall balance. Besides, IIRC the TPM novelization blathers something about him being one of the best swordsman in the Order, though my memory's blurry.

Good point. The problem is Luke(in ROTJ) is that we only see him fight on Jedi/Sith, that is Vader, and Vader was most likely holding back. Remember he still hoped to turn his son to the dark side, and usurp the throne together? However, I believe Luke has never received any form of lightsaber training before so I'm doubtful if he could stand up to a real Jedi/Sith Master.

The novelization made it pretty clear Vader wasn't holding back in the ROTJ fight, or at least not a whole lot, especially in that final bit of rage-driven attack where he was beaten. Which honestly made me wonder more about Vader than Luke (especially since Luke will be defeated by a nobody called Lumiya sometime after).

[Skelron]

He has the high ground: IE he has a 'tactical advantage'. If you recall, the entire duel was fought pretty much on equal standing. They clash and it's a standoff, but that was the point Obi-wan gained a clear advantage over Anakin.

Yep, also I suspect it was because to continue the fight Anakin had to Force jump over Obi, but the distance and Obi's height meant potentially anakin could not get the height needed to do so without exposing himself

You don't get it outright in the movie, but the novelisation makes it explicit: the Jedi teaching is flawed, and Yoda admits it to himself as he's dueling Sidious.

It's also why I think Mace was beating Sidious. Yoda realises he and all the jedi he has trained have not changed their training since the last Sith War. The Sith have however, the Sith have grown and changed, Yoda was trained to fight the last war. Mace However it is explained in the Novel has invented his own force form, one that uses 'The darkness within him' against the Darkside. Mace I think was beating Palpatine or had a better chance at least to beat Palpatine than Yoda because unlike the other Jedi he was not stagnent.

[thecreech]

Hmm I would disagree with your ranking. We cant rank Jedi/Sith based on who survived. I would go for:

Why not. being smart enough to survive to avoid something like the jedi purge is a great feat since only to jedi managed to do it.

[Hardy]

1. Luke vs. Vader (ROTJ)
   When I first saw ROTJ, this duel wasn't nesscesarily my favorite, but it had the most drama. I was thinking so many things while watchng it. Will Luke make it out alive? Can he resist temptation?
   
   The sheer drama makes it my favorite.
2. The Duel
   While the emotional intensity wasn't quite up to what I was expecting, it was still impressive. Prior to the film, I wasn't thinking that Obi-Wan was actually trying to kill Anakin. It was rather interesting to see two longtime friends (almost brothers) fatally go against each other.
   
   Plus the environment was incredible and possibly the most dangerous of the films. The constant precarity of the terrain and the fact that one mis-step would permanently maim someone added an element of danger, which therefore added to the intensity of the duel.
   
   Lucas had concluded The Duel in an interesting fashion. I had thought that Obi-Wan had previously taught Anakin the advantages of having higher ground, and was therefore using it as part of a ploy to get Anakin to return. Apparently, Lucas had cracked open The Art of War.
   
   I must admit that I was thinking like Anakin during that scene, and was expecting Anakin to jump over Obi-Wan and thus claim even higher ground. But as soon as Obi-Wan had said "Don't try it", I knew it was over.
   Anakin was so unceremoniously Black Knighted by Obi-Wan. I was slightly irked that Obi-Wan's final blow had to be made to CGI Anakin.
   
   The later dialogue between them was rather touching, and even more so as he bursted into flames. The entire duel was well accentuated by Williams' score.
3. Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan vs. Darth Maul (TPM)
   Simply for the "Oooh's" and "Ahhh's"
4. Luke vs. Vader (TESB)
   This got boring after a while, but it still is crucial to the story.
5. Yoda vs. Palpatine (ROTS)
   Loved the dialogue in that one. Though after seing four other lightsaber duels in that film, it sort of paled.
6. Count Dooku vs. Yoda (AOTC)
   Sheer hilarity and display of Force powers.
7. Obi-Wan/Anakin vs. Count Dooku (AOTC)
   It wasn't as boring as some might say it was, but it lacked certain elements that make a SW duel. Can't say that it wasn't cool, though.
8. Mace Windu vs. Palpatine (ROTS)
   I had missed part of this one. The part I was able to see just confused me. It was an exciting duel, though.
9. Lord Vader vs. Obi-Wan (ANH)
   It was boring. Crude special effects and a dull (some might just call it conservative as they were just trying to have conversation) fighting style. The dialogue is what makes this one good, in my opinion.

[Crown]

Well in TPM and AOTC Sidious is normal even in private and I have seen (promo) Pics of sidious with hands that were the same way as rest of his body. (more likely explanation is that Sidious masked his hands so it would look like he was only scarded by the Jedi).

No, that doesn't make sense; his hands aren't normal by the time he gives his speech. Furthermore, Clone Wars shows Sidious' hologram as deformed. And furthermore, real-time face-melting is really stupid.

No. It does no such thing.

It shows him making an 'angry' face, but that is all.

Besides (as has already been pointed out), he looks no different in TPM nor in AotC, and indeed in the earlier episodes of the Clone Wars.

Of course, if you post a screencap showing me being wrong, I'll shut up.

[Justforfun000]

I think that part was "set-up". A fight has to look natural. Even Mace Windu would have realized something was badly wrong if Palpy had been tying or winning , then as soon as the door opens and Anakin walks in Palpy starts losing. It just won't look right.

Letting Mace Windu win will also let that arrogant SOB get his head fuller with blood, so he'd attack more aggressively, making him look all the more pathetic and hoping Anakin will fall. The last scene where Palpy goes "POWER!!!" and zaps Mace pretty much says it all. I still can't stop laughing.

I disagree with this as well. He lost the battle. He lost his saber, and he WOULD have lost his life if Anakin hadn't saved him. I haven't seen the other thread on why his face aged, but to me it was quite obvious. The amount of power he was throwing against Mace was taking it's toll on him because he was throwing everything he HAD to prevent him from killing him. It looks like it was also being deflected back to him through the saber in some form too. However the tech explanation lays it out, I say he was damaged by his expenditure.

Also he had a bit of a breather when Anakin and Windu were hashing it out. THEN Anakin sliced off Windu's arm, which also lost him his saber, and on top of that was distracted by extreme pain. THEN his dark force lightning hit him like a ton of bricks with no deflection/reflection and thus was easy to keep hammering it at him until he was killed.

No. It does no such thing.

It shows him making an 'angry' face, but that is all.

I agree. It does not show him disfigured in either of the preceding movies. Only robed. It seems quite clear to me that it was the result of that battle.

And for the record, I think the viewpoint on Windu being the best swordsman is valid. He obviously mastered a blend of the dark side but in RIGHTEOUS use. Yoda was skilled as possible, but too one sided apparently. however it was quite clear that he surpassed the emperor in force power. When he narrowed his eyes and threw the emperor flying back even though he had the entire power of the dark side through the emperor trying to fry him, it showed him superior. Unfortunately, he was the victim of location more than superiority. When he fell off that disc, it screwed him.

[Noble Ire]

I disagree with this as well. He lost the battle. He lost his saber, and he WOULD have lost his life if Anakin hadn't saved him. I haven't seen the other thread on why his face aged, but to me it was quite obvious. The amount of power he was throwing against Mace was taking it's toll on him because he was throwing everything he HAD to prevent him from killing him. It looks like it was also being deflected back to him through the saber in some form too. However the tech explanation lays it out, I say he was damaged by his expenditure.

No.
1) When Anakin stops Mace and slices of his hand, Palpatine instantly looks normal and malevolant again, instead of slouched and pitiful. The wave of lightning he pours on Mace at that instant is just as powerful as it was during the previous attack. He was putting on a show, nothing more.

2)If Mace really was that powerful, than he would have to be stronger than Yoda. Do you actually believe that?

[Justforfun000]

No.
1) When Anakin stops Mace and slices of his hand, Palpatine instantly looks normal and malevolant again, instead of slouched and pitiful.

I didn't say PART of it wasn't a ruse near the end, certainly he was also using it to his advantage, but he STILL aged as he was fighting Windu. That didn't change back. Even then it could still be argued that he truly needed help. As long as Windu had him under the saber, he was at his mercy. ONCE he lost his saber, he was off guard and defenceless once hit by the dark side lightining.

2)If Mace really was that powerful, than he would have to be stronger than Yoda. Do you actually believe that?

Stronger in lightsaber techinique yes. Force? Definitely not. But his technique with the saber was powerful enough to counteract the Emperor's lightning. Without it, well.... I'm afraid Windu became Screw doo.

[Civil War Man]

Stronger in lightsaber techinique yes. Force? Definitely not. But his technique with the saber was powerful enough to counteract the Emperor's lightning. Without it, well.... I'm afraid Windu became Screw doo.

Mace's powerful lightsaber techniques are not strong enough to counteract that he's not as strong in the Force as, say, Yoda, and justify his ranking on the earlier list. While Yoda was caught off-guard in Palpatine's first lightning attack on him, he was able to absorb a later and much longer force lightning attack, then dissipate the energy in a rather nice-looking explosion. And he didn't need a lightsaber to do that.

Hell, in the ROTJ novelization, Luke was able to deflect the Emperor's force lightning for a short period of time (with his hands, IIRC, though correct me if it he actually used his saber), and he was tossed down at the bottom of the list.

[Winston Blake]

Well in TPM and AOTC Sidious is normal even in private and I have seen (promo) Pics of sidious with hands that were the same way as rest of his body. (more likely explanation is that Sidious masked his hands so it would look like he was only scarded by the Jedi).

No, that doesn't make sense; his hands aren't normal by the time he gives his speech. Furthermore, Clone Wars shows Sidious' hologram as deformed. And furthermore, real-time face-melting is really stupid.

No. It does no such thing.

It shows him making an 'angry' face, but that is all.

Besides (as has already been pointed out), he looks no different in TPM nor in AotC, and indeed in the earlier episodes of the Clone Wars.

Of course, if you post a screencap showing me being wrong, I'll shut up.

Since i'm fortunate enough to have downloaded the series:

Deformed a bit, especially the teeth, but not as deformed as ROTS i don't think.

[Nephtys]

I knew from before the movie came out that Obi-Wan would have to win by using Anakin's arrogance and overconfidence against him. It's pretty obvious he was only baiting Anakin when he declared he had the advantage of high ground, and 'don't even try it'. So when of course Anakin throws himself at Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan easilly lops off his legs. Pretty simple, really. And fitting.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

SNIP

Might I request a screencap of Palpatine for a comparison?

[Winston Blake]

SNIP

Might I request a screencap of Palpatine for a comparison?

Sure, no problem.

[Crown]

Errrr, like I said, an angry face. The face looks the same, the teeth look off but TPM and AotC show none of this.