Role playing elitism

[Mr Bean]

but it's still not a pen-and-paper RPG...

Ahh but look at the first post NOW

[The Dark]

but it's still not a pen-and-paper RPG...

Ahh but look at the first post NOW

*thwap* That's an abuse of Mod powers, Beano .

[Eleas]

but it's still not a pen-and-paper RPG...

Ahh but look at the first post NOW

With each passing moment you become more my servant.

[Kelly Antilles]

I was rathre partial to Deadlands.

Cowboys, Indians, and Zombies. Yes.

Plus the magic system is frankly ace. (spell power is determined by a poker hand, eg- Psychokinesis, a pair is like a medium strength punch, a royal flush is like being hit by a freight train) Also, Jokers make things go so horribly horribly wrong (in proportion to the rest of the hand)

Deadlands is awesome. And when you have a great GM, it's even better.

Aces and Eights all the way!

[Vympel]

1. Morrowind.

2.Because it's massive, because it's plot rules, it's character system rules, because it's graphics blow the fuck out of all the competition in the genre and games OUT of the genre too (I dare anyone to show me an RPG better looking than Morrowind- or any other game for that matter)

3. Wizards and Warriors (PC)

4. It's just shit, ok!

[Sokar]

Best RPG = "Fading Suns" from Holistic, excellent rules system , rich and detailed setting and its just damn fun. For your money you just cant beat being a Knight with a plasma pistol, mono-rapier and an energy shield.

A very close second, and I mean photo finish close is "Rifts" from Palladium. Vast scope and setting, endless possibilities for adventuring and the type of game you want to play, Space game with mecha and alien Empires , got it , Wild West with magic and tech , got it if you want to play it , there is a character class in Rifts which you can do it.

Plus I will admit that Deadlands does kick major ass with the right GM.

Worst RPG = D&D 2nd Edition , just plain hated it every time I ever played, never could get the system down, I much prefer the new version , at least I can figure out what I'm doing.

[Crayz9000]

Best - Nethack.

Completely random and unpredictable, its RNG has a sadistic sense of humor to boot. More addictive than EverQuest. And runs on practically every platform out there

Worst - Not really sure.

[Slartibartfast]

Ok, everyone, four questions, referring to pen and paper RPGs(Or Computer RPGs because I have a strong urge to rant about AO-Bean).

Let's get it on...

1. In your opinion, what's the best role playing game out there?

Generic Universal Role Playing System

2. Why is [x] the best game out there?

Because its rules are fairly realistic, allow for detailed characters, can cover almost any genre flawlessly, it has zillions of optional rules.

3. Conversively, what's the worst role playing game out there?

Rifts

4. Why is [x] so sucky?

Several reasons... hm this will take me a while.
Let's see:
-the guy can't write, his book is a complete mess, the rules are all stupid, he thinks he's so great, that his game is good, not like crappy "AD&D or point-based systems", that he came with the correct answer to the whole RPG thing, etc.
-Mega-Damage Capacity
-trigger-happy munchkin wankfest
-They just keep churning out more and more sourcebooks, with more and more guns, ships, Classes. There's absolutely no balance: a later book will have CHEAPER + BETTER armor, and better Classes (more everything: stats, skills, etc).
-Mega-Damage Capacity
-Idiotic story/background
-Mega-Damage Capacity
-He won't take any criticism: Simbieda has blackmailed every single review of his game by threatening to remove all his ads, etc. He can sue you if you say anything about any of his books in any webpage. If you try to create any kind of fan-made module, make up optional rules (i.e. FIXES) or simply state your opinion, he WILL get your site shut down.

ARgg... I hate Palladium.

[Ghost Rider]

1. Gurps or Shadowrun

2. Gurps: Allows for just about any scenario

Shadowrun : Because I love the setting...though the rules are a little evil at times.

3. Palladium in general or Rifts

4. Siembida is a dumbass moron who think power equals better...and seriously I might as well use a Glitterboy that's been merged with Ubermagic and Atlatian uber tech to even survive given his idealogy of RPGing.

That and after personally meeting him...he's one of the most arrogant bastards, seriously he believe everything he does is golden...and everyone else is well...wrong.

[Slartibartfast]

GURPS? A Steve Jackson game? I spit on that system. Get a real RPG you fairy!

And Rifts was cool. Half the fun of it WAS in character creation. Making the most crazy arse guys in existance

DIE!!!

[Hendrake]

Ok, everyone, four questions, referring to pen and paper RPGs(Or Computer RPGs because I have a strong urge to rant about AO-Bean).

1. In your opinion, what's the best role playing game out there?
2. Why is [x] the best game out there?
3. Conversively, what's the worst role playing game out there?
4. Why is [x] so sucky?

NB. I'd like to ask any mod to soundly trounce Graeme if he tries any of his pathetic "merits are arbitrary" thread hijacking BS. Thank you. :twisted:

Hmm.... Throwing out net-found free rpgs and homebrews:

Overall best: Nobilis (or Paranoia)
Nobilis: I find Nobilis' diceless rules very elegant and the ambientation very intruguing. For more information go to chancel.org
Paranoia: What is your access clerance, citizen?

Rules-wise Best: Over the Edge
Very flexible rules, you can use them for anything. Pity for the setting...

Setting-wise Best: Amber Diceless
Amber is a god of a setting. I tend not to play it because I'm afraid to ruin the setting...

Worst rpg: go to the donkey-rapers' site and see for yourself...

[Captain Hornblower]

Best = My own!
Worst = WEG Star Wars RPG, god I hate d6 systems!

[Captain Hornblower]

Oh, my own is a mis-mash of DnD3E (because they finally got it right!), Arduin (coolest stuff in any RPG, PERIOD!0, and Harn (best hit location table by anyone,anywhere!). The world my freinds enjoy has now been in existance since 1983.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Ok, everyone, four questions, referring to pen and paper RPGs(Or Computer RPGs because I have a strong urge to rant about AO-Bean).

1. In your opinion, what's the best role playing game out there?
2. Why is [x] the best game out there?
3. Conversively, what's the worst role playing game out there?
4. Why is [x] so sucky?

NB. I'd like to ask any mod to soundly trounce Graeme if he tries any of his pathetic "merits are arbitrary" thread hijacking BS. Thank you.

3rd Edition D&D!!!

Why? Assuming you have a good DM, you can do anything you've always wanted. You're not just limited to being an "adventurer" and hacking up the next dungeon in your path. You can be a freakin' politician if you really want to. Or be a god, with the recent Deities & Demigods supplements. Many people bash 3rd Edition, clinging to 2nd, but 2nd didn't provide this freedom, so whatever

Worst? That Diablo 2 d20 adaptation. I looked at the version that came with the computer game, it was just retarded

[Pendragon]

Instead of going for to sensible choiche and givin da man what he wants, ill just start rambling...

Eon/Neotech - basically the same system for a fantasy and cyberpunk rpg. And it works. Basically the best parts of these games are the character generation system. It might take a while but, its FUN! And if you want to, or are all out of ideas, you can randomize almost evrything and still get good results. The rules are also great, basically as easy or as complex as you want to, and one of the most realistic systems ive seen.

Rifts - Ok, so evryone thinks this game blows on a beaufort scale. They might have a point. The rules arent that thought-through compared to a lot of other games. Still I think it kicks D20 games by a mile for the following reasons:

1. Not balanced. I hate balanced games. The rules shouldnt balance games, thats the GM's job. A lvl 1 Glitter boy should be more powerful than a lvl 1 Vagabond. And thats that.

2. Cool world. No holds barred. Superlative. Anything goes. BOOM! ZAP! KA-POW!

3. System easier to modify than D20 where damn thing is integrated.

4. (most important) LOOK AT ALL THE PRETTY PICTURES! If its anything this games has got its atmosphere.

Shadowrun - Ive only played this a few times, and I guess the world seems cool enough, but the rules seems just weird... Just the fact that a marksman with a derringer does more damage than an amateur with a high-caliber gatling cannon.

Twilight/Merc2000 - Quick and easy. The latter is fun for one off games with lots and lots of gunfire. All you need to do is fix the damage system where average joe blow can take at least five 9mm pistol rounds to the chest before getting seriously wounded. To become critically wounded it takes at least 5 more. And this assuming you roll maximum damage for all shots. In short, to take somone out with a 9mm Beretta you need to empty all 15 shots in the poor guys chest to have a decent chance of killing him. Or you could just go for the head, where you can probably off him with 5 or 6 shots.

WEG Star Wars - Fun, fast, furious and you get to roll a shitload of dice when you spend forcepoints. YEE-HAW!

Love it.

D&D/D20 - AIIEEEE!!!!!




Note: Im at work so ill just finish my D&D review when I get home. But you get the genral idea.

[Eleas]

1. Not balanced. I hate balanced games. The rules shouldnt balance games, thats the GM's job. A lvl 1 Glitter boy should be more powerful than a lvl 1 Vagabond. And thats that.

Hell yes. This balancing rage has gone unquestioned far too long. In my opinion, it's one of the strongest reasons why d20 is what it is.

Why? Because the balancing uses the same baseline criteria. Uniformly, that criteria is defined as ability to do damage and hurt stuff. All else is on the sideline, unimportant, underdeveloped, and ultimately beside the point, because in the end, this places the full importance on one thing.

Fighting and killing.

Which is, to my mind, perfectly fine. As long as you understand that it has nothing to do with role playing; playing a role.

[Slartibartfast]

4. (most important) LOOK AT ALL THE PRETTY PICTURES! If its anything this games has got its atmosphere.

Arrggh... don't get me started with the pictures...

Have you even seen the Glitterboy "blueprints"? They're so fucking retarded that it seems he digged out some scribbled crap he drew while in school class because he was falling asleep. (I know because I did).

Not to mention that Long is the worst illustrator ever. The only decent illustrator in Rifts was the guy who made most of the pictures for Phase World (the guy that signs with 3 rectangles)

[Slartibartfast]

1. Not balanced. I hate balanced games. The rules shouldnt balance games, thats the GM's job. A lvl 1 Glitter boy should be more powerful than a lvl 1 Vagabond. And thats that.

Hell yes. This balancing rage has gone unquestioned far too long. In my opinion, it's one of the strongest reasons why d20 is what it is.

Why? Because the balancing uses the same baseline criteria. Uniformly, that criteria is defined as ability to do damage and hurt stuff. All else is on the sideline, unimportant, underdeveloped, and ultimately beside the point, because in the end, this places the full importance on one thing.

Fighting and killing.

Which is, to my mind, perfectly fine. As long as you understand that it has nothing to do with role playing; playing a role.

The problem is that Rifts is a game intended for munchkin powerplaying jerk-off, not true roleplaying. The problem isn't that a Glitterboy is *slightly* more powerful, but that every single sourcebook forever escalates in a neverending progression of power levels. Book 2 classes = Book 1 Classes ^2. Book 3 classes = Book 2 classes ^10. Book 4 classes... etc.

According to the "non-balance" logic, there should be a "total worthless loser" class, and it would be logical, but hardly rewarding to play. If the game is based on GUNS (which it is)

The game is all about QUANTITY, not quality. Book 2: more guns, more classes. Book 3: even more guns. lots of more classes. Book 4: hundreds of more guns! all the classes you'll ever need. +Guns+Classes+Guns+Classes+Guns+Classes.

And the guy is so ignorant he can't even make a distinction between LENGTH, AREA and VOLUME! He thinks that every single thing is measured in feet: "Spell X affects an area of 100 feet. Weapon I destroys everything in a cube of 50 feet. Cargo capacity of ship W: 20 feet."

Plus he states again and again: pure level based systems suck. pure point based systems suck. My system is good because I'm oh so great, I'm better than anyone else who makes role playing systems, which should be obviously to anyone by now. I'm a damn genius.

"Some games will have you think. Other games will make you worry. My game is better because it will let you unleash hundreds of MEGADAMAGE and mayhem everywhere."

[RedImperator]

How do you find a group to play pan & paper games with? None of my friends seem interested.

[Pendragon]

1. Not balanced. I hate balanced games. The rules shouldnt balance games, thats the GM's job. A lvl 1 Glitter boy should be more powerful than a lvl 1 Vagabond. And thats that.

Hell yes. This balancing rage has gone unquestioned far too long. In my opinion, it's one of the strongest reasons why d20 is what it is.

Why? Because the balancing uses the same baseline criteria. Uniformly, that criteria is defined as ability to do damage and hurt stuff. All else is on the sideline, unimportant, underdeveloped, and ultimately beside the point, because in the end, this places the full importance on one thing.

Fighting and killing.

Which is, to my mind, perfectly fine. As long as you understand that it has nothing to do with role playing; playing a role.

The problem is that Rifts is a game intended for munchkin powerplaying jerk-off, not true roleplaying. The problem isn't that a Glitterboy is *slightly* more powerful, but that every single sourcebook forever escalates in a neverending progression of power levels. Book 2 classes = Book 1 Classes ^2. Book 3 classes = Book 2 classes ^10. Book 4 classes... etc.

According to the "non-balance" logic, there should be a "total worthless loser" class, and it would be logical, but hardly rewarding to play. If the game is based on GUNS (which it is)

The game is all about QUANTITY, not quality. Book 2: more guns, more classes. Book 3: even more guns. lots of more classes. Book 4: hundreds of more guns! all the classes you'll ever need. +Guns+Classes+Guns+Classes+Guns+Classes.

And the guy is so ignorant he can't even make a distinction between LENGTH, AREA and VOLUME! He thinks that every single thing is measured in feet: "Spell X affects an area of 100 feet. Weapon I destroys everything in a cube of 50 feet. Cargo capacity of ship W: 20 feet."

Plus he states again and again: pure level based systems suck. pure point based systems suck. My system is good because I'm oh so great, I'm better than anyone else who makes role playing systems, which should be obviously to anyone by now. I'm a damn genius.

"Some games will have you think. Other games will make you worry. My game is better because it will let you unleash hundreds of MEGADAMAGE and mayhem everywhere."

I should make myself clear on this.

Rifts rules suck hard.
D20 rules suck harder.

Rifts has horrible rules, since they were thrown together without thinking it through.
D20's rules are thorougly thought out, developed and tested. Yet they suck harder.

As for the art. Kevin Long does suck in general, but when he's good, he's great. (Red Cyborg from main rulebook, The New German Republic)

Vince Martin is very, very good indeed (Phase World guy) but I really think you should take a closer look at Wayne Breaux Jr. as well (Rifts Mercenaries, South America) and whoever it was who did the art for Warlords of Russia (cant be arsed to get up and walk the 3 feet to my bookshelf and check).

And I for one actually think Kevin Siembaeda is decent writer.

But utterly horrible as soon as it comes to making up rules.
And yes, Rifts does suffer from severe power creep, but I chalk that up under 'sucky rules' and the fact that rifts has a progressing timeline where tech improves pretty quickly.

As for the tons of character classes, i think its better to have too many (although Saloon Bum and Deputy Sheriff could have been omitted) than as few as Star Wars, since character classes are so damn limiting (more in D20 than in Rifts).

So, to wrap it up, Rifts suck, but D20 sucks more.

And Rifts has pretty pictures.

Bear with me, I'm easily amused by bright colours.

[Slartibartfast]

I should make myself clear on this.

Rifts rules suck hard.
D20 rules suck harder.

Rifts has horrible rules, since they were thrown together without thinking it through.
D20's rules are thorougly thought out, developed and tested. Yet they suck harder.

Well, I'm not a big fan of D20, but I have trouble picturing any RPG worse than Rifts, other than the World of Sinnibar (sp?).

As for the art. Kevin Long does suck in general, but when he's good, he's great. (Red Cyborg from main rulebook, The New German Republic)

His drawing style might have been good in the 40-50's, in all those WW2 posters but they lack everything one should know about art. Ever heard of perspective? Or human posture?

Vince Martin is very, very good indeed (Phase World guy) but I really think you should take a closer look at Wayne Breaux Jr. as well (Rifts Mercenaries, South America) and whoever it was who did the art for Warlords of Russia (cant be arsed to get up and walk the 3 feet to my bookshelf and check).

IMO Breaux is as bad as Long, except less worse. I didn't remember the name but I was going to include him too

And I for one actually think Kevin Siembaeda is decent writer.

He might have good IDEAS but his writing sucks. Have you seen how many exclamation points he throws all over his books? I counted about one every other paragraph. And one in three exclamations are double or triple exclamations.

And he puts the chapters in such an horrible disorder... you get guns, then the world, then rules about how to fire a gun, then more guns, then Classes, then the Empire, then guns from the empire, then classes from the empire, then spells, then more guns, then vehicles, then vehicles for the empire, then some "authentic" document written by some historian, then more vehicles, then in tiny print, some spell rules, then vehicle rules, then skills, then you have several pages filled with conventional 20th century weapons that the ruleset basically has converted into HARMLESS.

But utterly horrible as soon as it comes to making up rules.
And yes, Rifts does suffer from severe power creep, but I chalk that up under 'sucky rules' and the fact that rifts has a progressing timeline where tech improves pretty quickly.

Assuming it was a timeline, except it's not. Other than the ongoing campaign thing, the only difference in times are when the book comes out. You're not supposed to play the books in any special order (they're settings, not missions in a linear campaign)

As for the tons of character classes, i think its better to have too many (although Saloon Bum and Deputy Sheriff could have been omitted) than as few as Star Wars, since character classes are so damn limiting (more in D20 than in Rifts).

Well, for starters I think the concept of classes is obsolete, but at least having generic classes with some variation IMO is better than having an infinite number of classes with insignificant differences. Simbieda confuses Classes with affiliation: you have Coalition Marines, CAF Marines, German marines, mercenary marines, japanese marines. You basically have the equivalent of a Sargeant class and a Lieutenant class, where you are either born a Sargeant or a Lieutenant, and then you go up in levels separately for each.

So, to wrap it up, Rifts suck, but D20 sucks more.

Suck is suck, really. If you put it in the list that you like, then it means you don't think it sucks.

And Rifts has pretty pictures.

Bear with me, I'm easily amused by bright colours.

Well, that's you, but I can distinguish bad art from good art.

[Eleas]

Well, I'm not a big fan of D20, but I have trouble picturing any RPG worse than Rifts, other than the World of Sinnibar (sp?).

Synibarr, and until you've played it, do you really have a basis of comparison?

Well, for starters I think the concept of classes is obsolete, but at least having generic classes with some variation IMO is better than having an infinite number of classes with insignificant differences.

I disagree though, rather strongly. Classes are generally unnecessary, but when they're present, I've found they tend to set the flavor of the character. If that flavor is "generic", and let's face it, that's the very concept of D20 classes, then your character will tend to be based on that concept, will reflect that blandness.

Look at the typical description given by any lyrical d20 SW player... "We play this campaign, see, and we're like, one Human Jedi Guardian Level 10, and one Quarren Soldier Level 3, and a Mon Calamari Noble Level 5, and one Sullustan Scout Level 4. Cool, huh?"

For me? Not very cool, no. Because these descriptions aren't characters. They're simply labels, much like the pathetic alignments. They contribute nothing except rabid categorizing. And still - still - they're very often the only thing a player looks at when he/she/it is playing a character.

No, then I prefer an oddball, unusual, wacky template, even if I'm not that familiar with RIFTS. Paradoxically, it gives me more freedom.

[PeZook]

My turn:

1. Cyberpunk of course!

2. Why? Because the rules are simply enough and fairly realistic, because the world is gloomy and detailed, because you get all those cool cyberimplants, because it can be anything from a 50s style criminal movie to an epic space opera or X-Files-style game, because you get shiny, gleaming guns, because the corporations are just so immensely COOL...and lots and lots and lots of other stuuf
And there are "generic" systems. No dice rules, pure storytell, mostly played via IRC. Love that stuff, only it's more tiring for the GM than normal P&P systems.


3. A difficult question...I'd have to go with Shadowrun.

4. Because the rules are extremely complicated (christ, I was the GM for a year and STILL had problems understanding most of them!), the setting wasn't all that great, and trolls were bulletproof.
Besides, cyberpunk rules can be used to recreate different ammo effects better

Did I mention I love cyberpunk?

[weemadando]

Congratulations to whoever it was that mentioned Paranoia.
The greatest RPG ever.

[Hendrake]

Congratulations to whoever it was that mentioned Paranoia.
The greatest RPG ever.

Are you happy citizien?

THE COMPUTER IS MY FRIEND! LONG LIVE THE COMPUTER!

Hend-R-AKE-2