Questions about Palpatine (Spoilers you silly french fools!)

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2005-05-22 07:22pm

First let me say that after having gone spoiler free for this movie my experience was much much better than the last two, and the movie just rocked plain and simple.

Alright, questions about Palpatine:

1. Do we have him wrong about being an uber-evil master-mind, instead of a really really really lucky high-stakes gambler? Look at Revenge of the Sith alone:
1. The kidnaping, if Obi-Wan and Anakin die on the way in, he's screwed, even they do make their way in he's got to hope that:
1. They get to him
, 2. They can succesfully confront Dooku,
3. That Obi-Wan is knocked/killed AND that Anakin violates the code and kills Dooku, and doesn't imprison him,
THEN he's got to hope that 4. They can escape through a massive battle and get back to Coruscant unharmed,
5. No one starts asking questions as to how the Chancellor was kidnapped.

2. His plot to over-throw the Jedi is clumsy and throws him in repeated danger:
1. If Anakin had bothered to put one and one together he would have seen immeadietly that something was up with the "Legend of Darth Pelagius,"
2. When he does reveal himself to Anakin (the most crucial part of the plot to kill the Jedi) he's got to hope that Anakin doesn't kill him right away, which he looked pretty close to doing, then he's got to hope that Anakin DOES tell the Jedi Council, instead of keeping it bottled up so that he could save Padme instead,
3. When the Jedi Masters do come to arrest him he's almost killed by Mace Windu, and if the other Masters hadn't been caught off-guard because of their arrogance he assuredly would have been killed,
4. After this he sends Vader off to kill the Jedi in the temple, here he has to hope that he's not over-powered by proper masters and that he doesn't have a change of heart when he sees that he has to kill innocent younglings, so that his kids can live...
and finally 5. Palpatine has to hope that Yoda doesn't kill him (the Emperor) when he inevitably confronts him AND that then entire populace of the Republic doesn't question his "The Jedi, who have been fighting for you in the Clone Wars and keeping your family and home safe, are really evil. Oh, and I'm emperor now. Booyah" story.
I could go on, but this, taken in conjunction with his already repeated Return of the Jedi blunders at Endor seem to be enough for me.

The second question about Palpatine is a little trickier, however:
2. Does he actually care/feel for Anakin?
He takes Anakin into his confidence, he helps him with the goal to save his wife (admitedly with many selfish intentions,) when he fights Yoda he says something to the effect that "IF you strike me down Vader will become even more powerful" and then the first thing he does after the fight is go to save Vader from certain death (This being the man who killed his master in his sleep, and who has shamelessly killed his last 'apprentice' [If you could call the ex-jedi Dooku one] so as to not hinder his plan), and then remains by his side whilst Vader is saved. It seems to me that the sith take the jedi folly of getting attached to their apprentices so as to cloud their judgement, along with their arrogance, and are just as hurt by it in the long run...

Well my convuluted two cents, what do you folks think?

EDIT: Added Paragraphs.

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2005-05-22 11:30pm

Another question I have, I know how people keep drawing this conclusion that Palpatine=Hitler, but really the only similarity is that they both killed lots of people. I think that a much more apt analogy is that Star Wars is sort of a Galactic what-if Brutus had turned on the Assassins and saved Caesar. It matchs up well with the Jedi representing the people who were a pale reflection of the Senate's far nobler past, that was now out of place in a corrupt galactic (Mediteranian) style. The Palpatine/Julius Vader/Brutus(or maybe Antony?) mesh is in more of a Shakesperian tradition than a historical tradition, but, superfically at least, it works out (though, admitedly, my knowledge of Rome around this area is not on par with my knowledge of its early history...)
What do you folk think?

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2005-05-22 11:52pm

Well, if ROTJ is anything to go by, Palpatine has the ability to see often future events. And for the most part, things do "go according to plan" for him until the very end when the Force does show him the true events, just not the end.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2005-05-22 11:54pm

Jesus, Straha, I want to answer, but you need to use the enter key more.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2005-05-23 12:34am

Well, first, Palpatine probably couldn't give a shit, emotionaly, about Anakin. Anakin was pretty much just Palpatines prize, the final gem in the Sith crown, the most powerful apprentice he could have.

Second, it's not really a gamble assuming that two of the most powerful Jedi in the Order, could get on board the ship and rescue him. Obi and Anakin are alot more powerful in RotS, and in the novel, Dooku was always meant to let Anakin beat him, on Palpys' orders, according to the novel.

Since Anakin came to Couruscant, Palpy had been there, whispering stuff in his ear, Anakin considered Obi and Palptine to be his best friends. There was pretty much zero chance of Anakin killing him. If Anakin didn't tell Mace, so what? It puts off the "assasination" attempt for a bit, in the novel and I think there's a scene in the film, the Jedi talk about removing Palpatine from office, that's exactly what he would need to prove the Jedi were traitors, and use Order 66.

Mace never nearly kills him. It's an act, staged for Anakin, to show him the Jedi are traitors. Palpatine loses his saber just before Anakin walks in, making him look all defenceless. That's no coincidence.

Anakin is never in any real danger at the Jedi Temple, the best Bladesbeings, Mace, Agen, Kit, Seasee have just been killed, and the other true Masters, Obi, Ki, Yoda, are all off on other planets. Not to mention the thousands of clones with him.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2005-05-23 12:49am

Dorsk, I think Palpatine cared very much for Anakin. First of all, Anakin is the apprentice and one day the apprentice will become the master. Palpatine was bragging to Yoda that Anakin will become more powerful than any of them. Like a mentor bragging about his protege. Secondly, he went to rescue Anakin and PERSONALLY lead the troopers to where Anakin was, and took the time to bend down and touch his forehead (a touching scene).

Dillon · Post by **Dillon** » 2005-05-23 12:58am

Palpatine doesn't give a shit about Anakin. He cares about the Sith Legacy. Because of his power, Anakin is important to him, so he wouldn't want to see him injured.

But caring about Anakin in an amicable sense? Please. He actually smiled when he saw that Anakin was in horrible emotional turmoil after he realizes Padmé died.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2005-05-23 01:04am

Maybe, but I still think he only cares about Anakins power, and what he can do for the Sith. I don't think that Palptine is telling Yoda about Anakins power because he's proud, although, I'm sure he was in a way, I think it's more a way of saying how Anakin is the most powerful, now he's a Sith, you're screwed, the Jedi lose. I read the scene, of Palpatine touching Anakins head, as it being a way of Palpatine keeping Anakin alive, till he could get him back to Courscant and fix him up, from the novel atleast. The line was "and he set his Will upon him, Live Lord Vader" I think.

Deathstalker · Post by **Deathstalker** » 2005-05-23 01:14am

Just saw movie again so everything is fairly fresh.

As Joe said, Straha needed a few more spaces in the OP.

For the kidnapping, Siddy couldn't lose. If Anakin and Obi-wan are killed, Siddy will be pissed off, but he can still use Dooku and frame the Jedi and eliminate them. I don't think it matters, because Siddy knew Anakin was going to school Dooku.

For the plot, Siddy has the hole card, Anakin's concern for Padme. If Siddy had half a brain, he was ready in case he was wrong. If Anakin hadn't turned, Siddy would have handed him his ass.

After watching Siddy and Mace go at it, I think the few seconds between Siddy losing his saber and Anakin showing up, Siddy showed genuine fear. When Anakin showed up, Siddy went into his act. The fact that Anakin shows up confirmed to SIddy that he had won Anakin's loyalty.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-05-23 01:25am

Paragraphs are good. I refuse to address that post until i see some paragraphs.

Haminal10 · Post by **Haminal10** » 2005-05-23 01:52am

1) I think that Papatine's actions in RotS can be explained with a healthy dose of arrogance and some pre-cog. Palpatine has shown a fairly good ability to see into the future (with one notable, and final, exception). He also knows the dogmatic Jedi so well, that he could probably predict their actions without the force. He plays them like a fiddle in the movie, which was why the Jedi order had to be torn down and rebuilt if there was ever going to be a chance to stop the ever-evolving Sith.

2) Palpatine kneeling over Anakin and touching his head is quite possible the only tender act we see from the Emperor. It was a nice mirror to Obi Wan checking Luke after the Tuskin attack in ANH. Wither his concern was for Anakin as a person, or for Anakin's abilities and how they would aid the Sith is probably a matter of opinion. I would say its both.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2005-05-23 01:54am

Palpatine most likely had backup plans ready for all but the most unlikely of problems. He just rarely had to use them.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-05-23 02:03am

Anakin is never in any real danger at the Jedi Temple, the best Bladesbeings, Mace, Agen, Kit, Seasee have just been killed, and the other true Masters, Obi, Ki, Yoda, are all off on other planets. Not to mention the thousands of clones with him.

Obi-Wan, Ki-Adi-Mundi, Yoda, Plo Koon and Stass Allie are not the only remaining Masters after the above four were killed (I can't remember if Quinlan Vos was on the Council, probably not, and Aayla Secura definitel wasn't, nor was Barriss Offee and Luminara Unduli, IIRC). Present at the temple were Shaak Ti, also a Council Member, whom Anakin killed, and Cin Drallig, the lightsabre training master. Anakin killed both quite effortlessly, but I have little doubt Anakin could've killed every Master in a straight up fight except Mace and Yoda (the novelization says something like that re Anakin being a lot of "firepower" all by himself).

Pint0 Xtreme · Post by **Pint0 Xtreme** » 2005-05-23 02:18am

I have another question concerning Palpatine. WTF was Palpatine doing when he was trying to convert Luke? He had a good lever to use when converting Anakin to the dark side. Use his love for Padme.

But Luke didn't have any emotional attachments for Palpatine to use. No attachments - easy to let go of the dark power. The only time there was substantial attachment was when Vader realizes Leia and uses her to draw Luke into the fight. But clearly, the Emperor wasn't thinking clearly when he believed he could easily turn Luke to the dark side. What gives?

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2005-05-23 02:18am

Exactly. The point was, removing Mace and Yoda from the equation, that unless you have Agen, Kit, Ki, Cin, Shaak, etc, in the Temple and ready for him, there's no one who really has a hope of standing up to him.

Are there any figures for how many Jedi were in the Temple at the time Anakin attacked? There can't have been that many if the Masters resorted to arming the older Padawans.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-05-23 02:22am

Padawans are armed. Obi-Wan in TPM was a Padawan (yet older than Anakin in RotS), as was Anakin in AotC.

I have another question concerning Palpatine. WTF was Palpatine doing when he was trying to convert Luke? He had a good lever to use when converting Anakin to the dark side. Use his love for Padme.

But Luke didn't have any emotional attachments for Palpatine to use. No attachments - easy to let go of the dark power. The only time there was substantial attachment was when Vader realizes Leia and uses her to draw Luke into the fight. But clearly, the Emperor wasn't thinking clearly when he believed he could easily turn Luke to the dark side. What gives?

"Give yourself to the Dark Side. It is the only way you can save your friends."

Leia, Han, Chewbacca on the Endor Moon, the entire Rebel fleet etc. were all being destroyed in front oh his eyes. Palpatine wanted to make him angry, to feel that power in an attempt to strike him down, and then, realizing the power he had and could have if Palpatine trained him, become Palpatine's apprentice and supplant Vader, who would be killed.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2005-05-23 02:29am

Pint0 Xtreme wrote:I have another question concerning Palpatine. WTF was Palpatine doing when he was trying to convert Luke? He had a good lever to use when converting Anakin to the dark side. Use his love for Padme.

But Luke didn't have any emotional attachments for Palpatine to use. No attachments - easy to let go of the dark power. The only time there was substantial attachment was when Vader realizes Leia and uses her to draw Luke into the fight. But clearly, the Emperor wasn't thinking clearly when he believed he could easily turn Luke to the dark side. What gives?

"Your overconfidence is your weakness."

"Your faith in your friends is yours."

Pretty much sums it all up right there.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2005-05-23 02:31am

Vympel wrote:Padawans are armed. Obi-Wan in TPM was a Padawan (yet older than Anakin in RotS), as was Anakin in AotC.

Well, Padawans of certain age must usualy be unarmed, else Shaak Tis' line from the novel is just stating the blindingly obvious. Unless she's refering to weapons other than Lightsabers.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-05-23 02:54am

If she said "older Padawans" (I don't remember) she must be referring to say, the 14 year olds. Not those of Anakin/Obi-Wan's age.

PainRack · Post by **PainRack** » 2005-05-23 04:21am

I always found the idea of the Sons of Suns, being a duality to be of interest. Other than destroying the Death Star, Luke skywalker doesn't appear to "do" anything else in the OT. He's always the facillator, the one that's the focus point so as to speak. Anakin Skywalker however, always appears to be the one who "does" stuff. He destroys the DCS unaided(unlike Luke), he rescues the Chancellor, he takes on Count Dooku and etc etc etc.

It just seems to me that the Chosen One and Sons of Suns prophecy are two aspects of the same prophecy, to balance the Force. However, the Chosen One refers to Anakin and his ability to do stuff, whereas the Sons of Suns refers to the duality of Luke and Anakin, where Luke is the catalyst and Anakin is the doer.

Perhaps Obiwan has once again misread the prophecy, and believes that Vader, being the "corrupted" chosen one must now be destroyed in order to end evil, and that Luke and Leia, the sons of suns would be the one to achieve it?

Straha · Post by **Straha** » 2005-05-23 11:50am

Dorsk 81 wrote:Well, first, Palpatine probably couldn't give a shit, emotionaly, about Anakin. Anakin was pretty much just Palpatines prize, the final gem in the Sith crown, the most powerful apprentice he could have.

But think about it, he has to know that Anakin doesn't approve of his new regime and secretly plots to kill Palpy, yet Palpatine keeps him around anyway, brags about him, and even goes out personally to save him knowing this, and knowing that Anakin is the single biggest possible threat to his power. I think the only honest explanation is that he cares about Anakin, unlike Maul and Tyrannus/Dooku and views him as sort of a son that he never had.

Mace never nearly kills him. It's an act, staged for Anakin, to show him the Jedi are traitors. Palpatine loses his saber just before Anakin walks in, making him look all defenceless. That's no coincidence.

You're under-estimating Mace, he's a Jedi Master, and he's THE combat master, no one paralells this Mo'Fo except maybe Palpatine, not even Yoda. After the other Masters get themselves killed thanks to their arrogance (All we have to do is bunch up in the door-way, ignite our sabres, and then he'll be so over-awed by four Jedi Masters that he wont even think of attacking us) Mace begins fighting and actually seems to have the upper hand in the fight, and looks like he could give a bad beating to Palpy, who, in turn, is betting that Anakin will come to him in time to save him and switch sides OR that Mace will arrest him in the proper 'Jedi Way' giving Palpatine the chance to be a manipulative bastard and bring down everyone against the Jedi at once.

Dorsk 81 · Post by **Dorsk 81** » 2005-05-23 01:49pm

Straha wrote:But think about it, he has to know that Anakin doesn't approve of his new regime and secretly plots to kill Palpy, yet Palpatine keeps him around anyway, brags about him, and even goes out personally to save him knowing this, and knowing that Anakin is the single biggest possible threat to his power. I think the only honest explanation is that he cares about Anakin, unlike Maul and Tyrannus/Dooku and views him as sort of a son that he never had.

The doesn't mean anything, the Apprentice always kills the Master, it's the way of the Sith. Palptine would know that better than anyone, he'd already killed his Master. All the "I need your help son" talk, is just Palptine getting closer to Anakin so he can manipulate him easier.

You're under-estimating Mace, he's a Jedi Master, and he's THE combat master, no one paralells this Mo'Fo except maybe Palpatine, not even Yoda. After the other Masters get themselves killed thanks to their arrogance (All we have to do is bunch up in the door-way, ignite our sabres, and then he'll be so over-awed by four Jedi Masters that he wont even think of attacking us) Mace begins fighting and actually seems to have the upper hand in the fight, and looks like he could give a bad beating to Palpy, who, in turn, is betting that Anakin will come to him in time to save him and switch sides OR that Mace will arrest him in the proper 'Jedi Way' giving Palpatine the chance to be a manipulative bastard and bring down everyone against the Jedi at once.

Mace isn't as good as you try to make him out to be, there's a source somewhere, Insider magazine I think, that says Dooku had beaten Mace in Saber combat before he left the order.
It's an act, he couldn't have killed Mace untill Anakin arrived, or how would it have looked "oh, yea, these Jedi, they tried to assasinate me, but I killed them". Why do you think he took the fight out of the War Room where Kit, Agen and Seasee were killed? Because if Anakin walks in to see three dead Jedi Masters, he might come to the conclusion that Palpatine isn't nearly so helpless as he makes out.

VT-16 · Post by **VT-16** » 2005-05-23 02:23pm

Doesn´t he also loose his lightsabre in the most awkward way possible? I seem to recall him loosing grip on it when being kicked or something. It just seemed too "accidental". When he later holds his own with Yoda, even toying with him, it just seemed like a charade with Mace.

Zed Snardbody · Post by **Zed Snardbody** » 2005-05-23 02:41pm

I was wondering what would have happened, had the Jedi wated until news of Grivous' death was public, thus ending the war in the public eye.

The Jedi were far to hasty to arrest palpy.

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2005-05-24 07:15am

observer_20000 wrote:But caring about Anakin in an amicable sense? Please. He actually smiled when he saw that Anakin was in horrible emotional turmoil after he realizes Padmé died.

I reckon that's just because Palpatine gets off on people being in emotional turmoil. Just look at him every time he feels anger or watches fighting. He looks like he's getting a blow job or something.

It kinda makes me wonder what sex with him would be like. Would he have horrible convoluted mock revenge role-playing fantasies? I can imagine him being a real masochist, asking his lover to vent their anger upon him. He'd probably be into rough kinky foreplay too, and he would probably use the Force in inventive and tittilating ways as well....

Please, be glad you're not me. You just read it. I, on the other hand, always think like this.