Non-Lethal Weaponry

[Admiral Valdemar]

I was just watching a rather disturbing Tonight programme on fire brigade workers being attacked as they get called out, often to ambushes and false or intentionally started fire incidents. They can't really do anything about this unless they get cops to turn up, but they do record it all, even if the youths wear masks or hoods.

Now to the non-lethal weaponry. I'm wondering if anyone knows of any tests or news on such weapons like the UV Tazer (a tetanizer) that would be ideal for such incidents. Along with the CCTV on the fire engine, they could defend themselves by staying inside and aiming the UV laser at the yobs and paralysing them temporarily just so they can escape at least unharmed (these youths seem to set up such attacks in dead end streets and other hard to reach places). That may even get them to show themselves to the camera.

The US has also been working on their high-energy microwave beam, but I keep hearing about how mean it is to people, even if it doesn't harm them. I can only assume those people find the sometimes lethal rubber bullet and watercannon as better.

[kheegster]

I was just watching a rather disturbing Tonight programme on fire brigade workers being attacked as they get called out, often to ambushes and false or intentionally started fire incidents. They can't really do anything about this unless they get cops to turn up, but they do record it all, even if the youths wear masks or hoods.

Now to the non-lethal weaponry. I'm wondering if anyone knows of any tests or news on such weapons like the UV Tazer (a tetanizer) that would be ideal for such incidents. Along with the CCTV on the fire engine, they could defend themselves by staying inside and aiming the UV laser at the yobs and paralysing them temporarily just so they can escape at least unharmed (these youths seem to set up such attacks in dead end streets and other hard to reach places). That may even get them to show themselves to the camera.

The US has also been working on their high-energy microwave beam, but I keep hearing about how mean it is to people, even if it doesn't harm them. I can only assume those people find the sometimes lethal rubber bullet and watercannon as better.

WTF??? Can you provide a link to this? I've heard about the trick about slapping random people on the street and recording on videophones, but this is new...

[Admiral Valdemar]

No link, it was on the Tonight programme this evening. They had loads of onboard CCTV footage of kids throwing fucking bricks and blades at these guys. There was even an attempt to get the fire engine rushing down the road to swerve into a car and one incident in broad daylight with kids at a broken water hydrant that was leaking, but they wouldn't leave to let the firemen switch it off.

If they had the ability to stun these bastards with completely non-lethal weapons (and hopefully flashlight sized as anticipated for the new UV Taser like weapon) then they wouldn't be so hot. That's one reason why I wish these bloody people who say even these non-lethal means are risky despite lobbying for more non-lethal weapons, as if ST stun guns are doable.

[El Moose Monstero]

I know this is a bit of an off topic thing, but I can't believe this violent sub-culture that seems to have developed in the past few years - even my own home town has had ASBO's served to kids who hang round in groups at the local shopping centre doing things like letting down tires of security vans and things like that.

In sixth form we used to just say that it was the lower year being a bunch of tossers, but there are people attacking police officers, fire officers, security guards and everything these days, what the hell are they doing or not doing that we didn't do or did do?

[Robert Walper]

I just say give the Firemen real guns and the approval to use them against these fucktards. I'm sure it would be remarkably effective.

[kheegster]

Fire hoses are a remarkable crowd control weapon. Admittedly, this requires that they connect to a firehydrant first, but once this can be done, those yobs are in for a good washing.

[kheegster]

I just say give the Firemen real guns and the approval to use them against these fucktards. I'm sure it would be remarkably effective.

This is in a country where the average policeman does not carry firearms, and armed policemen have to answer for every single shot they fire.

[Admiral Valdemar]

This is in a country where the average policeman does not carry firearms, and armed policemen have to answer for every single shot they fire.

Oh yeah, that other minor thing about not shooting and killing kids might have something to do with it too. Geez.

Fire watercannon won't work either. The fire engine has limited supply, easily exhausted. To use a fire hydrant means setting it up and even then, it can be disabled. The best bet would be using tetanizing lasers since the only way to stop them is to cover all of your skin up, meaning even you face with decently thick material. And that would hinder them still.

[Quadlok]

Don't these guys have big axes and thick, fireproof clothing that would serve well as body armor against the kind of things these kids are throwing? I doubt many of these little punks would stand their ground against several firemen doing a berserker charge at them.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Don't these guys have big axes and thick, fireproof clothing that would serve well as body armor against the kind of things these kids are throwing? I doubt many of these little punks would stand their ground against several firemen doing a berserker charge at them.

The kids won't be fooled by that. They know the guys can't do anything to them, or do you expect them to actually use those axes on them and then be ripped apart at the courts and in the media for violence against minors? The world doesn't work that way, as much as the firemen said they'd like to use force, they cannot like that. That is why I advocate using non-lethal weaponry to incapacitate them.

[aerius]

One thing that might work is immobilizing sticky foam. It sprays out as a sort of gel and then expands and sticks to the target making it difficult to impossible for the guy to move. Problem is if the foam covers his face then the guy could suffocate and die, but in my books that perfectly acceptable.

Personally I support the use of automatic firearms against the worthless criminal scumbags.

[Admiral Valdemar]

One thing that might work is immobilizing sticky foam. It sprays out as a sort of gel and then expands and sticks to the target making it difficult to impossible for the guy to move. Problem is if the foam covers his face then the guy could suffocate and die, but in my books that perfectly acceptable.

I've seen those glue guns used by South American police and they were tested here by the Royal Marines As a means of copying Spider-Man too. So far, the police still use rubber bullets and have been testing the regular on the market Tasers that, like you said to Zaia, can have mixed results and have the shit range and single use problem. That's why we need these microwave emitters and UV Taser systems to get the hell out and into enforcement use for these situations. They've been proven to work and don't harm unless you sit infront of the things for hours (good luck) and won't ever kill.

Personally I support the use of automatic firearms against the worthless criminal scumbags.

As useful as a remote .50 calibre machine gun turret would be on each emergency vehicle, I doubt those whiners out there would allow it. Blasting a nearby car to pieces as a warning would be fun though.

[Quadlok]

Don't these guys have big axes and thick, fireproof clothing that would serve well as body armor against the kind of things these kids are throwing? I doubt many of these little punks would stand their ground against several firemen doing a berserker charge at them.

The kids won't be fooled by that. They know the guys can't do anything to them, or do you expect them to actually use those axes on them and then be ripped apart at the courts and in the media for violence against minors? The world doesn't work that way, as much as the firemen said they'd like to use force, they cannot like that. That is why I advocate using non-lethal weaponry to incapacitate them.

Axes have blunt sides, and people have plenty of bits to chop off that aren't to neccessary. But I guess the courts in Britain just don't work the same as they do here.

The whole UV Tazer thing is a better idea, though.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Axes have blunt sides, and people have plenty of bits to chop off that aren't to neccessary. But I guess the courts in Britain just don't work the same as they do here.

The whole UV Tazer thing is a better idea, though.

Show me a court that wouldn't rip any emergency worker to shreds if he bludgeoned a youth with an axe or cut anything. You just don't expect that sort of thing and even in self-defence it'd be hard to justify to the masses. We're talking kids from 10 years old here.

[Lancer]

Axes have blunt sides, and people have plenty of bits to chop off that aren't to neccessary. But I guess the courts in Britain just don't work the same as they do here.

The whole UV Tazer thing is a better idea, though.

Show me a court that wouldn't rip any emergency worker to shreds if he bludgeoned a youth with an axe or cut anything. You just don't expect that sort of thing and even in self-defence it'd be hard to justify to the masses. We're talking kids from 10 years old here.

so "accidentally" fall on top of them while fully loaded out with gear. Then when asked about it, say the kid's attack unbalanced you, you overcompensated, and fell on top of them.

A firefighter in good health carrying loads of gear should weight a good deal.

[Quadlok]

Axes have blunt sides, and people have plenty of bits to chop off that aren't to neccessary. But I guess the courts in Britain just don't work the same as they do here.

The whole UV Tazer thing is a better idea, though.

Show me a court that wouldn't rip any emergency worker to shreds if he bludgeoned a youth with an axe or cut anything. You just don't expect that sort of thing and even in self-defence it'd be hard to justify to the masses. We're talking kids from 10 years old here.

I thought they were older than that. I've never been able to understand how your school years go. I was assuming 15 year olds or so, and I don't think anyone has much tolerance for most of them. Even with 10 year olds, I bet their are plenty of people who would say they deserve whatever they get for acting like little bastards.

Also, the same people who would be up in arms over a couple of concussions and lost digits would still be just as pissed if you tazered the kids.

[Admiral Valdemar]

That'd be amusing to watch, actually.

[Chmee]

"I wasn't assaulting the youth, Your Honor ... he lost his grip on a brick that landed in my vicinity, and since I assumed he would want his brick back right away, I tossed it back .... rapidly."

I don't care if they're 10 or 40, you throw a fucking brick at a fireman, you should not be surprised if the truck stops and the whole crew comes over to beat you senseless. Life is an intelligence test, but it doesn't grade on a curve, if you're too stupid to live, you will probably die: ugly.

They'd certainly *better* figure out a way for the justice system to handle this, because if the firemen are under the impression that the law isn't handling this, there's no doubt whatsoever they will start to handle it themselves, and nobody wants that.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Scotland has a law brought in that covers their firemen since in England it is simply normal assault, whereas against a police officer it is a far more serious crime. Hopefully stricter laws here along with better abilities to deal with such crimes will help.

[Tasoth]

The firefighters could also take paintball guns with them. Why a paintball gun you ask? Pepperball! Watched a show on Non Lethal weapons one day and they had these on. It's a paintball, so it inflicts less damage on impact then a rubber bullet, but it'll still hurt. Also, inside the pepperball is the equivalent of pepper spray, which sticks to what it hits and can subdue someone. It'd be a big surprise for someone deciding the firefighters are going to be easy targets.

[aerius]

We're talking kids from 10 years old here.

Damn, that's a big problem. No matter what you do the media and the public can rip the firefighters a new one.

I'd say pass some new laws, run a negative media campaign so the public will not be sympathetic to the little shits anymore, and then give the firemen carte blanche to beat the punks senseless with axes or batons.

[Stark]

If they're ten, even beanbag rounds or tasers will probably be counted as excessive. I'd be mean and say 'sterilise their parents', but it's a bit late for that.

There really isn't a response. They can't retaliate, and they can't not respond to calls. Unless they're going to give fireys police-like powers, whereby ignoring or threatening them is a crime (through endangering others and property by preventing them doing their jobs). Won't really help, since you'll just get a lot of kids in juve, but they're targetting these guys because it's not as bad as going the fuzz.

[Admiral Valdemar]

Sympathy for the service workers won't be too hard to get now that it seems to be airing on the current affairs programmes, but even if backing fully existed, you know the parents of the brats would object and go to court if they saw so much as a bruise on their kids.

Hopefully a bill will be passed like the one in Scotland allowing anyone ID'd to go behind bars for a few years. There is an initiative to educate kids on what firemen have to do for a living which helps (one 14-year-old girl went on it after doing up to 6 prank 999 calls a day and said it helped her understand; as if it's fucking rocket science to see how retarded their behaviour is).

I really would just go apeshit if I was any of those guys, but I admire their restraint since losing your job to a punk kid is not the way to go. Beating them to pulp or shocking them until their muscles burn or blasting them with a few thousand litres from a watercannon seems far nicer.

[Master Arachnos]

Anyone who attempts to attack a policeman or a fireman, or any other memebr of the emergency services deserves everything they get. My brothers a copper and he knows at least half a dozen extremely painful ways to incapacitate me without causing lasting damage (most of them involving just 1 hand).

Teach these to fireman, give them something to restrain the idiots with once they're down, then let the coppers haul them away..It'll work on 90% of troublemakers...

[The Third Man]

I know this is a bit of an off topic thing, but I can't believe this violent sub-culture that seems to have developed in the past few years - even my own home town has had ASBO's served to kids who hang round in groups at the local shopping centre doing things like letting down tires of security vans and things like that.

In sixth form we used to just say that it was the lower year being a bunch of tossers, but there are people attacking police officers, fire officers, security guards and everything these days, what the hell are they doing or not doing that we didn't do or did do?

Exactly my thoughts. A lot of the "yob-culture" stuff being pushed by Blair and friends I'm pretty cynical about, and I'm not convinced there is really anything new or as menacing as we're led to believe going on, but in the specific case of attacks on firefighters there clearly is a problem.

I'm at a loss with suggestions on what to do about it. Standard procedure when you're faced with a problem is to confirm it really exists (in this case, it patently does) then figure out the cause, then come up with a solution. It's the second part I too don't see an obvious answer to. And until you know the true cause, it's foolhardy to say that any one approach is the infallible solution, be that tazers, axes, CCTV or whatever.

No-one should have to fight running street battles as part of doing their job (except, obviously, the police), let alone someone whose job is fundamentally about rescuing, protecting and assisting people. It's not fair or realistic to expect firefighters to use force of any degree to simply do their jobs, so I don't favour arming them, no matter what sort of non-lethal (or otherwise) tech is used.

I'm hoping the Scottish measures will demonstrate a workable solution that can be implemented everywhere, but if they do, that still won't be an answer to the "why".