So I've seen ROTS, but I still don't know if Mace won

[Lusankya]

The thing is, Palpatine needed Mace to be alive and have the upper hand when Anakin arrived. Otherwise, Anakin will not be forced to choose between Palpatine, who possibly holds the key to saving his wife, and Mace, who is breaking the Jedi code by trying to assassinate the Chancellor.

Don't be ridiculous, had Palpatine been able to kill Mace as quickly as he did the other masters, he would have. He still would have the recording of the Jedi treachery and the fact that Skywalker need him to sway Anakin to his side. There is no sane reason for Palpatine to risk his life in an extended battle with Mace if he did not have to.

You consider Palpatine to be sane?

[Spartan]

HDS wrote:

Not according to the novel, yoda would have lost.

I know. But that's not what we saw in the film. Regardless, Yoda is still potentially stronger, assuming that he gave in to the darkside, as per LOE. The presumption that Sidious is vastly stronger than Yoda just annoys me.


Hey HDS are you going to ever get your quote website going again?


Edit:

I just reread that passage, Yoda seems to be talking more about the way he failed the order rather than his powerless ompared to Sidious. So I would take the movie over the novel represetation of the battle.

[Spartan]

Lusankya wrote:

You consider Palpatine to be sane?

Sane enough to not want to die stupidly yes.

[Justforfun000]

How many times must we go through the fact that his face WASN'T melted by that Force lightning, but his true form revealed? And Mace still made himself pretty damn open by raising his arm so high, just so Anakin could come in and take that arm off. The Sidious saw a chance and took him out far easier than before.

I haven't seen the threads on this personally, but I've heard reference to it....Unless this is in the novel, I totally disagree with this.

It looked quite clear to me the power he was using was being deflected back at him in a way that was causing this. If I had to give an analogy, I'd suggest a car trying to push forward against an immovable force. What happens when it keeps trying? The engine revs higher and higher eventually causing dmg. Once the force can be "moved", it can fly forward with no overrev necessary. Same reason once Mace's saber was gone and he was disoriented the lightning was able to hit him like a truck.

[Shroom Man 777]

Don't be ridiculous, had Palpatine been able to kill Mace as quickly as he did the other masters, he would have. He still would have the recording of the Jedi treachery and the fact that Skywalker need him to sway Anakin to his side. There is no sane reason for Palpatine to risk his life in an extended battle with Mace if he did not have to.

I personally believed Anakin had to be there, with Mace Windu threatening Palpatine just a few feet in front of him, to have made the decision. It was supposed to be a hurried choice, so he couldn't really think clearly, or something. Besides, which would be more convincing? Palpatine showing you a record after him slaughtering every last one of them with absolute ease? Or Palpatine on his back, in fear, with a pissed off Mace Windu melting his face off?

[Lusankya]

Palpatine is a person who is more than willing to risk his life to accomplish his purpose: you see this throughout the movie. I think it may be an offshoot of his megalomania. In this sense, he is not sane.

[Tsyroc]

I figure that Mace had Palpatine beat fair and square in the saber battle but even if Anakin doesn't arrive I'm not certain that Mace winning is guaranteed. At that point it looked like Mace was making headway against the lightning but it still aint over until it's over.

Since Anakin did show up I figure that Palpatine decided to use that to his advantage. Either Anakin chooses to help him or his annoying little weakness ploy distracts Mace just enough so he can win more easilly on his own. Assuming he needed even that little edge.

[Lusankya]

Palpatine started lightninging Mace after Anakin showed up. At that point he was putting on his pretty show.

[Robert Walper]

I'm completely convinced Mace had Palpatine. Palpatine may have been milking just a tad with his fear and "weak" portrayal, but the impression was definitely that Mace got him fair and square.

I don't see what the problem is. Palpatine ain't invincible nor infalliable (just watch ROTJ).

Besides, Palpatine was in a serious fight with Mace Windu which by all rights should be taking a lot of his concentration and effort (if not all of it). He couldn't sense what Anakin right behind him was up to when he was frying an innocent Luke writhing on the floor of the Death Star. But we're expected to believe when fighting the second most powerful Jedi of the Republic era, he's keeping tabs on Anakin's where abouts and exact moment of entry into the Chancellor's room? Sorry, I don't buy that.

[Spartan]

Shroom Man 777 wrote:

I personally believed Anakin had to be there, with Mace Windu threatening Palpatine just a few feet in front of him, to have made the decision. It was supposed to be a hurried choice, so he couldn't really think clearly, or something. Besides, which would be more convincing? Palpatine showing you a record after him slaughtering every last one of them with absolute ease? Or Palpatine on his back, in fear, with a pissed off Mace Windu melting his face off?

It was an audio recording actually. Anyway, he can't be 100% certain he will not suffer any injury in that battle; what if he's off on a block? It is simple insane to risk yourself in combat, if you don't have to. Even if its against a much weaker opponent; Murphy's Law can be a real bitch!

[Publius]

The novelization remarks that the duel between Darth Sidious and Mace Windu was "still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue," an "impasse" that "might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift." In terms of lightsaber combat alone, the novelization emphasizes that "the darkness had no power over him," but "neither did he have power over it."

Windu's Vaapad was not the key to his apparent victory over Sidious. Rather, using his ability to see shatterpoints, he found that the "largest fracture" in the "knot of fault lines in the shadow's future" was Anakin Skywalker – i.e., to Windu's clairvoyance, the key to breaking Sidious was Skywalker, not in Sidious at all.

Indeed, Windu incorrectly believed he was using Sidious's fear to defeat him, driving him toward the window "where the shadow's fear made it hesitate," "turned some of its Force-powered speed into Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete," taking advantage of this to disarm him (the novelization says he cut Sidious's lightsaber in half, what the official terminology describes as sun djem); Sidious's answer is the dun möch taunt "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"

Windu's empathy then revealed to him that "Palpatine was not afraid"; indeed, "he wasn't worried at all." He identified Sidious's shatterpoint – "The key to final victory. Palpatine's shatterpoint. The absolute shatterpoint of the Sith" and "the shatterpoint of the dark side itself" – as being his trust for Anakin Skywalker; it was this trust that Skywalker would succumb to the dark side that was the key to Sidious's undoing (hence, the only way to defeat Sidious was to strike at Skywalker's shatterpoint – precisely as Luke Skywalker did at the Battle of Endor).

It is possible that Mace Windu was superior as a duelist to Darth Sidious. Whether Sidious was genuinely outfought by Windu or he was deliberately throwing the fight, it is clear that Sidious was most certainly manipulating the course of the fight. Either he chose not to make full use of his skills as a duelist in order to create a moral dilemma for Skywalker, or he took advantage of Windu's superior swordsmanship to create that same dilemma; it is not possible to say definitively at this time. It is possible to say that whether Windu was winning a thrown fight or an earnest won, it was his very act of winning that ensured that he lost. He may or may not have outfought Sidious, but he was most certainly outmaneuvered by him.

[His Divine Shadow]

Thats a nice summation of the fight, would you mind if I maybe reposted it elsewhere?

[avatarxprime]

That is indeed an excellent summary of the fight Publius. It seems that as far as the lightsaber duel goes, Mace had Palpatine beat fair and square, but keep in mind that Palpatine is a Sith Master on par with Yoda when it comes to power. Just because he lost the duel doesn't mean he could not out Force power Mace and still win the battle. However, when Anakin arrived he decided to change plans and give Anakin a dilemna that would turn him to the darkside. It has already been stated that Palpatine was supremely confident that Anakin would turn to the darkside, so it is reasonable that Palpatine would take the risk and use his life to bait Anakin into attacking Mace.

[His Divine Shadow]

I know. But that's not what we saw in the film. Regardless, Yoda is still potentially stronger, assuming that he gave in to the darkside, as per LOE. The presumption that Sidious is vastly stronger than Yoda just annoys me.


Hey HDS are you going to ever get your quote website going again?


Edit:
I just reread that passage, Yoda seems to be talking more about the way he failed the order rather than his powerless ompared to Sidious. So I would take the movie over the novel represetation of the battle.

The presumption that he isn't pisses me off.

And I see no contradiction, the novel is just much more comprehensive than the movie can be due to differing formats, we also see the fight from sidious point of view, he isn't worried, he can feel how it costs the "little green freak" just to deflect his lightening attacks, he is sure of victory.

And no, no website, ever.

[SVPD]

All of that is completely irrelevent since Sidious still won. Yoda disengaged, ergo, lost. It's no use saying anything otherwise and since, as you admit, it was a stalemate near enough, I don't see Sidious or Yoda letting up anytime soon.

And what good is being dead? Vader wasn't a contingency plan, he was there to give Sidious more leverage. You think Sidious gives a shit for anyone else? If he dies, then everything he accomplished is for nothing. No, he wasn't going to be a martyr, he didn't seem to give a shit for a Sith Empire unless he was top dog.

Tactically, the battle was a draw. Strategically, the Sith won.

[SVPD]

How about the possibility that Sidious was improvising when Anakin showed up?

He may have simply manipulted the situation to the point where he was pretty sure Anakin would come ("always in motion, is the future") but he had to go for broke when the Jedi came to arrest him.

Then he realizes Anakin is coming, and figures "If I win, I can show Anakin that the Jedi plot to assassinate me is true, If I lose I just have to create enough confusion to get an opening."

I'm going for Mace had Sidious beat, and Sidious was thinking fast on the fly.

[Mange]

Haminal:

That assumes Palpatine knew Anakin was soon to arive. There is no evidence of this. Is it a coincidence? Maybe it IS, Lord knows weirder things have happened.

This si circular logic, see? He MUST have known because he wouldnt have lost if he wasnt trying to turn Anakin.

But why not? Why cant Mace just be stronger? Isint that simpler and more in line with what appears on screen? I think it is.

ROTJ: "I have foreseen it." Perhaps he got it right for once?

[Shroom Man 777]

Then he realizes Anakin is coming, and figures "If I win, I can show Anakin that the Jedi plot to assassinate me is true, If I lose I just have to create enough confusion to get an opening."

If he wins, he shows Anakin that he slaughtered a couple of Council members. He he lost and was on his belly, with Mace just about to kill him, then he creates a situation that looks like the Jedi are out to get him and he forces Anakin to make a rash decision, where he has to think fast and not think of the other dead Jedi lying around in Palpy's rooms, where he doesn't have time to properly assess the situation.

[Publius]

Thats a nice summation of the fight, would you mind if I maybe reposted it elsewhere?

Certainly.

It is interesting to note that this counterintuitive conclusion – that Darth Sidious ultimately defeated Mace Windu by being defeated by him, whether wilfully or not – is not an isolated incident. This is, in fact, the very reason that Yoda chose to disengage the Galactic Emperor after he realized that he "just – didn't – have it." Yoda expresses this realization in the form of a question: "How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?" This is the genesis of Yoda's admonition to Luke Skywalker that the Force is used for knowledge and defense, never for attack: for to attack the dark side was to feed it, to strengthen it. Mace Windu fought and defeated Darth Sidious (whether the fight was fair or fixed is irrelevant), and died because of it. Yoda chose to accept his defeat and survived to play a far greater role in Sidious's ultimate defeat. Although Windu certainly tried harder and came closer to success, he ultimately had far less impact.

Thus, when Luke Skywalker is faced with a similar choice, he confirms Yoda's epiphany: "The only way to destroy the Darkness was to renounce it." His choice to throw away his lightsaber and reject the dark side was the coup de grâce to the Emperor's shatterpoint – Anakin Skywalker – and in so doing he defeated the Emperor by refusing to fight him. This is fully consistent with the new information of Revenge of the Sith, and confirms that Mace Windu was correct about where the Emperor's shatterpoint was, even if he failed to realize how to strike at it. Skywalker made the correct choice where Mace Windu erred – oddly, both of them had their right hands severed by Anakin Skywalker's cho mai. Ironically, Mace Windu told Anakin Skywalker before the critical moment that he did not trust him, and he died at the Emperor's hands; Luke Skywalker told his father that he did have faith in him before the critical moment came, and it was the Emperor instead who died.