Fate of the clones?

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2005-05-24 09:23pm

Does the EU say anywhere what happened to the clone troopers when the Empire stopped using them and started enlisting people? I mean, think about it, these guys have no homes, no families, and no pre-war life of any kind to go to. They probably had war buddies, but they were likely as not other clones. Did the Empire provide for them somehow, cull them, or simply kick them from the army when they got too old and leave them to fend for themselves?

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-05-24 09:24pm

IIRC, they continued to serve until rapidly aging out of usefulness. Most were long dead by the time of ANH.

Trogdor · Post by **Trogdor** » 2005-05-24 09:32pm

I figured that much, but were they programmed (for lack of a better word) to die soon after they became too old to fight? If not, you're looking at millions, hell probably billions of people who had no place in society after they became too old and had to retire. I'm just wondering if anything was ever made of this in the EU.

Guardsman Bass · Post by **Guardsman Bass** » 2005-05-24 10:27pm

Did any of the novelizations hint at their lifespan? It's possible that they are bred to live a certain period then simply 'drop dead' after that.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-05-24 11:25pm

Guardsman Bass wrote:Did any of the novelizations hint at their lifespan? It's possible that they are bred to live a certain period then simply 'drop dead' after that.

In Hard Contact, a Clone is being described as being bilogically age 60 when he is 23. The clone in question is in a "Vetcenter" so I would assume he is well beyond practical fighting age.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2005-05-25 12:45am

The ROTS: VD says that after the war the older clones are used as rescue crews, similar to the ones that help land the remains of the Invisible Hand. It further says that those crews are stigmatized as the work as seen as being fit only for droids.

It makes one wonder how it is that supposedly, everyone hates clones by the time of the OT. Seeing as millions are probably working shit jobs on
Courscant.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-05-25 12:51am

It makes one wonder how it is that supposedly, everyone hates clones by the time of the OT. Seeing as millions are probably working shit jobs on
Courscant.

Nope, I would guess that by then, they're all just dead (most of em at least). Probably better than working as a janitor, scraping Mace Windu's weathered, charred guts off an undercity street corner.

000 · Post by **000** » 2005-05-25 12:51am

A large number of them succumb to insanity and turn on the Empire that spawned them. A second clone war ensues, pitting the mad clones, their opportunistic masters, and even more fast-grown spaarti clones against the loyalist clones and newly recruited Imperial soldiers. To defeat the clone menace, the Empire reforms its military and commissions a number of new and improved weapons of war; the old clone wars stuff is mostly taken by the rebelling clones. In the end the clones are defeated, and cloning is now seen as dangerous, abhorrent, and generally taboo. The remaiming loyal clones stay in the Stormtrooper corps, safely anonymous behind their helmets, and any other military cloning is brought to a grinding halt.

Thus, a number of EU/PT conflicts are resolved, plus fodder is provided for a number of great stories, not to mention the TV show.

At least, that's how it should happen. I can always hope.

Admiral Drason · Post by **Admiral Drason** » 2005-05-25 12:52am

Why is assumed that every one hates clones in the OT? I just remeber Obi-Wan saying that he was in the Clone Wars.

000 · Post by **000** » 2005-05-25 12:55am

It's made pretty clear by the EU of the time period. See Tales of the Bounty Hunters, Shadows of the Empire, The Thrawn Trilogy, The Hand of Thrawn Duology, etc.

Plus, it's assumed that that's the reason for Luke getting a cybernetic rather than cloned hand. Although Anakin did the same when cloned body parts were readily available, so go figure.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-05-25 12:57am

People don't hate clones, cloning is just illegal, like war/assassin droids. If anything it was more of an aversion due to the Clone Wars.

It's droids that everybody hates, or at least dislikes, but that's millennia old.

Correct me if I'm wrong, though.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2005-05-25 01:05am

I don't know Spanky, the Thrawn trilogy and Mara's comments in particular make it sound like there is a general predjudice against clones.

000 · Post by **000** » 2005-05-25 01:06am

The general impression in TTT is that clones are bad, and that they were the bad guys during the clone wars. In the current clone war they're the good guys, so it's odd that they'd be feared so much later on. After all, they saved the galaxy twice over: first from the separatists, then from the Jedi. LOE makes it clear that they were praised greatly and often in the media, even more so than most jedi. If anything this clone war should really be called the Droid War or Alien War, and make everyone paranoid about droids and aliens, who were the bad guys. Clones and cloning should have been even more accepted due to their heroic status.

That, and there's the whole clone wars thing... so far we only have one. Where are the others?

Darth Raptor · Post by **Darth Raptor** » 2005-05-25 01:32am

As for it being "Clone Wars" (plural) that's probably just because it consisted of a lot of large-scale, but relatively isolated conflicts.

As for the Jango Fett clones, who says the Empire stopped using them? Just because they started using other templates and recruiting normal people into the stormtroopers doesn't mean Fett's progeny was retired. As for the rapidly aging Clone Wars vets, they could have been used to train recruits of the regular army and the next generation of stormtroopers.

Bob the Gunslinger · Post by **Bob the Gunslinger** » 2005-05-25 02:24am

gladius wrote:A large number of them succumb to insanity and turn on the Empire that spawned them. A second clone war ensues, pitting the mad clones, their opportunistic masters, and even more fast-grown spaarti clones against the loyalist clones and newly recruited Imperial soldiers. To defeat the clone menace, the Empire reforms its military and commissions a number of new and improved weapons of war; the old clone wars stuff is mostly taken by the rebelling clones. In the end the clones are defeated, and cloning is now seen as dangerous, abhorrent, and generally taboo. The remaiming loyal clones stay in the Stormtrooper corps, safely anonymous behind their helmets, and any other military cloning is brought to a grinding halt.

Thus, a number of EU/PT conflicts are resolved, plus fodder is provided for a number of great stories, not to mention the TV show.

At least, that's how it should happen. I can always hope.

I like that. I like that a lot. Hopefully some SW EU author will think like you do and we'll get a decent book trilogy out of it.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2005-05-25 03:15am

I wish something more had been made out of Jango's death. The Kaminoans were keeping him around for a reason, and Dooku was disturbed by his death on Geonosis for a reason. This should have had greater consequences.

Gorefiend · Post by **Gorefiend** » 2005-05-25 06:47am

I wish something more had been made out of Jango's death. The Kaminoans were keeping him around for a reason,

Jango trained the Elite Arc Trooper Clones while he was on Kamino.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2005-05-25 07:31am

I think people don't like clones that much because it's a bit creepy. They're all identical, have the same voice and everything, and given that they are used like expendable battle droids i bet a lot of "moral" people wouldn't like it.

Even i find it a bit ... immoral to use them. Like when Obi-Wan tells Anakin not to go and help them, that they are doing their job by being expendable. That clone was still a living person. I know that he was cloned for just one purpose and that he was altered to be just a fighter, but i still thought it was a bit cold for Obi- to consign him to his death like he was nothing.

Setesh · Post by **Setesh** » 2005-05-25 10:19am

2000AD wrote:I think people don't like clones that much because it's a bit creepy. They're all identical, have the same voice and everything, and given that they are used like expendable battle droids i bet a lot of "moral" people wouldn't like it.

Even i find it a bit ... immoral to use them. Like when Obi-Wan tells Anakin not to go and help them, that they are doing their job by being expendable. That clone was still a living person. I know that he was cloned for just one purpose and that he was altered to be just a fighter, but i still thought it was a bit cold for Obi- to consign him to his death like he was nothing.

Its a point that gets shown a lot , especially in the comics. Anakin thinks of the clones as people, the rest of the Jedi think of them as organic droids. This makes sense in light of Anakin's past as a slave. He's been treated as a thing and as his reaction to Padme's question reveiled, he was not happy about it.

Shroom Man 777 · Post by **Shroom Man 777** » 2005-05-25 10:21am

2000AD wrote:Even i find it a bit ... immoral to use them. Like when Obi-Wan tells Anakin not to go and help them, that they are doing their job by being expendable. That clone was still a living person. I know that he was cloned for just one purpose and that he was altered to be just a fighter, but i still thought it was a bit cold for Obi- to consign him to his death like he was nothing.

Huh? Obi also said practically the same thing in AOTC after Padme fell off the LAAT. I'm sure he'd say the same he did in the spacebattle scene if those piloting the ARCs were non-clones.

000 · Post by **000** » 2005-05-25 10:26am

Setesh wrote:Its a point that gets shown a lot , especially in the comics. Anakin thinks of the clones as people, the rest of the Jedi think of them as organic droids. This makes sense in light of Anakin's past as a slave. He's been treated as a thing and as his reaction to Padme's question reveiled, he was not happy about it.

"There is something very touching about them. They look like soldiers; they fight like soldiers; and sometimes they even talk like soldiers. They have all the finestqualitiesof the fighting man.But behind that is nothing—no love, no family, no happy memory that comes from having truly lived. When I see one of these men killed, I weep more for him than for any ordinary soldier
who has lived a full and normal life." -- Ki-Adi-Mundi

Most Jedi think of clones as people and have moral qualms about using them.

Lusankya · Post by **Lusankya** » 2005-05-25 01:14pm

2000AD wrote:Even i find it a bit ... immoral to use them. Like when Obi-Wan tells Anakin not to go and help them, that they are doing their job by being expendable. That clone was still a living person. I know that he was cloned for just one purpose and that he was altered to be just a fighter, but i still thought it was a bit cold for Obi- to consign him to his death like he was nothing.

I thought that was just Obi telling Annie to keep focussed on the mission and not to get sidetracked with heroics.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2005-05-25 01:25pm

Lusankya wrote:
2000AD wrote:Even i find it a bit ... immoral to use them. Like when Obi-Wan tells Anakin not to go and help them, that they are doing their job by being expendable. That clone was still a living person. I know that he was cloned for just one purpose and that he was altered to be just a fighter, but i still thought it was a bit cold for Obi- to consign him to his death like he was nothing.
I thought that was just Obi telling Annie to keep focussed on the mission and not to get sidetracked with heroics.

Exactly. You've never been a soldier, have you 2000AD? I've been in the army, and this sort of mentality is not at all uncommon among real soldiers serving with other real soldiers. If you see your buddies under fire, and some of them are dying, you have a real desire to go help them. But if they are drawing fire in an attempt to divert the enemy and give you a chance to accomplish your mission then you drive on with your mission and leave them to do theirs. It's not some cold hearted disregard for them. You have a job to do. It's your duty. Moreover, if you give in to your impulse to go help them, and don't, as a result of this, accomplish your mission -- which they were diverting the enemy in order for you to do -- then those of them who got killed died for nothing. The whole mission might as well never have been undertaken, and they needn't have died at all.

It may sound cold hearted, but in the military, you have to focus on your mission, and if you are a leader, you even have to be willing to sacrifice lives for your mission. The movie U571 was not a great movie, but one thing in it was spot on. When Bill Paxton tells Matthew McConaughy the reason he did not recommend him for promotion is that he has his doubts that McConaughy is capable of giving a man an order that he knows will most likely lead to his death, this is truly a quality necessary in a combat leader. You don't want to take any uneccasary casualties; but you can't be squeamish about taking necessary ones either.