Asshat Claims It's Hard To Be A Christian In A Debate

[Aaron]

From here

America was set up as a colony for the Religious and social Outcasts of Europe to go. Mostly Protestent Christains getting away form Catholic oppresion. The only reason God id found in and Official things form that time is becasue it was Socialy bad form to not do so youd be shunned or accused of any manner of things if you were not openly Christian (or pretended to be). nowadays your more likley to be shunned for being openly Christian.... how times change... All I want is to belive how I choose to believe and let others believe how they choose without fear of persicution, oppresion, or being harmed. but i do admit i kinda fear an Atheist gettin into power as most Atheists i know are of the type that would persicute and opress those that belive in (Ominpresnt Non-coporeal Deitie(s))

Any idea's on how I should respond to this guy? To be honest the stupidity has me dumbfounded. My response so far can be seen directly below his at the link provided.

[SirNitram]

Point out hte Religious Right is currently in power and rewriting things for their own whims.

[Darth Raptor]

Atheists "opress" Christians by nullifying their ability to opress people of other religions. This notion is so pathologically stupid I'm amazed that so many people believe it.

Not having complete control of the government != Opression. If he means opression in the some other (read: real) sense, feel free to demolish his delusions. He's pretty much pigeon holed himself into the "if I can't have a theocracy I'm being opressed" agrument otherwise.

[General Zod]

eh. standard fundie asshat claims of the religious right being oppressed. ask how christians are being oppressed when they have the majority control of the government. alternatively, ask him to prove real instances of oppression, which he'll most likely come up with tripe where christians were trying to impose their religious beliefs in places they didn't belong and got shot down for doing so. then promptly rebutt said nonsense.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

From here

America was set up as a colony for the Religious and social Outcasts of Europe to go. Mostly Protestent Christains getting away form Catholic oppresion. The only reason God id found in and Official things form that time is becasue it was Socialy bad form to not do so youd be shunned or accused of any manner of things if you were not openly Christian (or pretended to be). nowadays your more likley to be shunned for being openly Christian.... how times change... All I want is to belive how I choose to believe and let others believe how they choose without fear of persicution, oppresion, or being harmed. but i do admit i kinda fear an Atheist gettin into power as most Atheists i know are of the type that would persicute and opress those that belive in (Ominpresnt Non-coporeal Deitie(s))

Any idea's on how I should respond to this guy? To be honest the stupidity has me dumbfounded. My response so far can be seen directly below his at the link provided.

Where did this guy learn his English? Outer Mongolia?

- Uhhuh, is he completely ignorant of the rightward drift of American politics? What rock did he live under when the Christian right-wing helped nudge Bush the Younger into a second term. Did he miss the polls that show 44% of Americans believe in Biblical Creationism. Did he miss the fact that the Christian right feels brave enough to publically challenge the 'notion' of evolution being taught in public schools? Or how about that it's fashionable to believe in God and angels? Or that newspeople are endowed with breathless credulousness when a water stain on concrete, or a burn on a cheese sandwich looks like the Virgin Mary?

- What hypocrisy this guy spews. He says that he wants the right to believe in anything he wants, and for others to have that right. And in the next sentence, he states he doesn't want atheists to be in any position of authority. Clearly, what he's implying is that atheists probably ought to be barred from power, to preserve his right to believe, and that something is inherently wrong with them for not believing.

- This guy's scary. He acts like he'd welcome a return to the days when people who weren't openly Christian were actively oppressed. (See previous bullet.)

- This guy demonstrates an appalling lack of historical knowledge. Most of the colonials who went on to found the United States came from Protestant nations. In fact, groups like the Puritans, came to get away from Protestant persecution. And the other major European power in the Americas was Spain, whose colonists were not only openly Catholic but were doing their damnedest to force Catholicism on the natives under their power.

[Thinkmarble]

Go here:
Slacktivist Blog:Persecution

Persecution

"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

"Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."



-- Matthew 5:10-12


In many times and in many places, Christians have faced persecution because of their faith.


The United States in the early 21st century is not such a time and place. Right now, as you read this, people are suffering imprisonment, disenfranchisement and physical harm because they are Christians. None of these people live in the United States.


The United States is a liberal democracy with a Constitution that guarantees freedom of conscience. This makes it a haven against religious persecution for people of all faiths and of no faith. Christians in America enjoy rights and legal protections that Christians in other parts of the world -- China, North Korea, the Sudan -- can only dream of.

The United States is also a country whose culture is shaped by the mores and conventions of its overwhelmingly Christian majority. This culture makes it not only acceptable, but often popular and advantageous for Christians to be outspoken and public with their professions of faith. By culture and convention, Christians in America enjoy privileges and power that their coreligionists in other countries could never dream of. When or where in history was it ever easier to profess Christianity in whatever form you might choose?


And yet scarcely a day goes by, regardless of whether or not it is "Justice Sunday," in which some group of American Christians does not claim that they are facing "persecution."


They dare to use that word.


This is delusional, pathological. These people are insane. They are my brothers and sisters in Christ -- and the brothers and sisters of those Christians facing actual persecution in the world's forgotten corners -- but they are insane.


When protected, privileged and pampered American Christians claim to be facing persecution they spit on the wounds of their brothers and sisters elsewhere in the world and in history who have known firsthand what religious persecution really is. They mock not only their fellow Christians in this great cloud of witnesses, but also those of other faiths who have suffered or are, now, today, suffering genuine persecution.


Such a person was recently interviewed on the PBS program "Now." He described both the real, physical suffering he experienced and how his faith in God gave him the strength to endure it:

... Nightmares come, because I stayed five days without food or water, with torture. I always have this feeling, like conscious dreams. Sometimes these scenes appear in front of my eyes, even while I am not asleep.

I put my faith in God. Our strength and our resistance come from our faith in God, especially a person who considers himself not guilty and he is the object of abuse and punishment. There were others who couldn't resist [the torture], and they gave up names of innocent people to trade for their release from prison. But God gave us the strength, and we believe in God. For a truly faithful man, God gives the person the great strength to be patient to endure the pain, abuse and insults that we were subjected to.


The man who described this persecution is named Haj Ali.


You may not recognize his name, but you've seen his picture.

and here
Slacktivist: Persecution continued

Persecution (cont'd.)


In comments to this post below, Todd points us to this George Will column, in which the bespectacled one bemoans that "The state of America's political discourse is such that the president has felt it necessary to declare that unbelievers can be good Americans."




The president had to make such a statement, Will notes, because so many other things he has said and done have strongly implied that skeptics, freethinkers, Episcopalians and other nonevangelicals cannot be good Americans. In Will's phrase, "He and his party seemed to have subcontracted governance to certain especially fervid religious supporters." Which brings us to the core of his piece:

Some Christians should practice the magnanimity of the strong rather than cultivate the grievances of the weak. But many Christians are joining today's scramble for the status of victims. There is much lamentation about various "assaults" on "people of faith." Christians are indeed experiencing some petty insults and indignities concerning things such as restrictions on school Christmas observances. But their persecution complex is unbecoming because it is unrealistic.

Will doesn't use terms like "cultural hegemony," but that is what he describes in the rest of his piece, citing as examples things like the popularity of The World's Worst Books.*


Todd also asks a fair question:

... what Christian claimed actual "persecution," be it at "Justice" Sunday or elsewhere? ... You say: "They dare to use that word." Would you be so kind as to provide the who, what, when, and where of this? Who actually "dared to use that word"?

David Limbaugh has in recent months made himself the standard bearer for the use of this word by American Christians in reference to themselves. It's the title of his latest book, "Persecution: How Liberals Are Waging War Against Christianity."


He's made the rounds of the right-wing echo chamber, and wherever he goes his use of the word has been uncritically adopted (see, for example, this glowing review from Human Events).


The media emperors of the religious right have given Limbaugh an even warmer welcome.


"If you think Christians are only persecuted in other countries, think again," says the Focus on the Family blurb for the CD of James Dobson's two-part interview with Limbaugh, titled, "The Modern War Against Christianity."


That interview was originally broadcast on the more than 3,500 radio stations that carry Focus on the Family's programs.


Many, many more examples can be found in the loonier fringes of the religious right Check out, for example, almost any comment thread at worldblog (of the highly subsidized right-wing, Southern PresbyGothic World magazine) -- particularly those on the great evolutionist conspiracy against Christianity.


There's much more if you want to wade into the murkier, deeper waters at the crazy end of the pool -- "Persecution of Christians growing in the United States"; "Persecution of Christians in America" -- or spend some time browsing sites like Renew America or Worldview Weekend.


So, yes, the word is actually used, and the idea has taken hold. It is, as Will says, unbecoming and unrealistic, but many, many American evangelicals believe that they are "persecuted." Don't take my word for it -- ask them. Go ask Ned Flanders next door, or ask that Very Nice coworker who once gave you a copy of the "Four Spiritual Laws."


These same evangelicals also believe, presumably with a different compartment of their brains, that America is "a Christian nation."


It's difficult to reconcile these two ideas -- persecuted hegemons? (One theory is that the cognitive dissonance produced by simultaneously believing these contradictory notions is so violent that it results in physiological damage, actually altering their brain chemistry. But that's just a theory.)


Anyway, the discussion in comments to the earlier post is worth scrolling through in its entirety. I'm reposting a couple of choice rants from there here on the main site because they're too good to leave buried in comments.


First is this from Alex:

The glamorization of "persecution" is a component -- and a vital one--of the culture "wars". It allows a participant to view himself (or herself) as a "soldier" carrying out God's work -- and losing.

This is the important part.


If you're losing your struggle, you get to break the rules, cheat, lie, do anything to win. Winners have to play fair, but if you can somehow twist things so you become oppressed, you are granted moral license to do, well, anything.


It's the glow of martyrship without the ickiness of actually being martyred.


And that feeling, that shock of indignation, that swell of righteous anger: it's addictive. It's a sure-fire hit on the crackpipe of certainty. It's why all fanatics sound the same -- their leaders all use the same tools.


And this glorious example of the Art of Rant from Merlin Missy:

Of course Christians are persecuted in the United States. After all, everyone knows Christians can't marry other Christians (except in one state but nobody recognizes Christian marriages anywhere else and it's not like those are real marriages anyway), can't adopt ot become foster parents after they truthfully answer the "Faith" question on the questionnaire, can be denied housing and jobs for being Christians, and are regularly the butt of jokes where practitioners of other religions (especially Jews) are portrayed as kind and giving. In many parts of the country, Christians are afraid of walking down the street because they know people will shout at them for being Christian. They don't dare walk into some bars, knowing that their conservative clothing or a slip in conversation might make them a target for "beat the Christian in the backroom." When a Christian commits an act of terrorism against an abortion clinic, Christians lock their doors in fear of retaliation by complete strangers. Doctors who practice and promote Natural Family Planning are listed on websites with "Wanted" posters and regularly receive death threats. Halloween and Beltaine are paid days off regardless of a person's faith; anyone who asks to take a vacation day for Christmas or Easter is grilled suspiciously by coworkers and managers. Schools for other faiths are everywhere; there are only one or two Catholic schools per state and they don't advertise after three were firebombed in one year. The ruling party and all three branches of government have dozens of people who have made public statements that Christians are destroying this country and that the practice of Christianity should be banned by the Constitution. Christians are barred from military service. Every Christian has a friend or relative who was killed or imprisoned during the last world war because they were Christian. When Christians complain about the treatment they receive, they're told to move to another state / country with their own kind. People regularly picket the funerals of Christians with signs that read "The nameless forces that randomly shaped the cosmos into an appealing pattern hate Christos!" The word "christian" is used as an independent adjective to describe something stupid and/or undesireable. Christian girls who ascribe to Paul's teaching that women must keep their heads covered when they pray are suspended from schools for violating the "no hats" policy. The only movie most people have even heard of that features Christianity is "The Faith," a horror film that shows teenaged girls praying for bad things to happen to their classmates and committing cannibalism (using a phrase made trendy by the movie: "Body and Blood of Christ"). Politicians regularly end statements with "And Allah bless America," and when called on it, they claim they mean all gods when they say Allah. "In YHWH We Trust" is written on our money. Teenagers who tell their parents they're interested in Christianity, or believe they might be Chrisrians, are told they're "going through a (rebellious) phase" and are often sent to counselling to "fix" them. The first response people often make when they hear someone's family member is a Christian is to say "I'm so sorry." Christian clubs at colleges don't advertise their meetings because atheists regularly show up and hand out copies of "On the Origen of Species."

Or you know, not.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


* In discussing the phenomenal sales of the Left Behind series, though, Will repeats a confusion that LaHaye and Jenkins themselves have promoted. The LB books have been surpassing the sales even of the wildly popular novelist John Grisham. Will, like many others, cites this as an indication of the triumph of the evangelical over the secular.


But since when was John Grisham "secular"? Grisham had a No. 1 best-seller with the extended parable of The Street Lawyer and followed that up with Testament -- a pervasively sectarian book that bordered on proselytization. The contrast of L&J and Grisham is not religious vs. secular, but a matter of different kinds of Christian religion. The Southern Baptist Sunday school teacher who wrote Testament should not be made an example of "secularism."

[Rocker5150]

"nowadays your more likley to be shunned for being openly Christian"

If I openly believed in obvious nonsense and idiocy, I would expect to be shunned and laughed at!


"i kinda fear an Atheist gettin into power"

Man is that a disturbing comment! I guess he wants a supernatural worshipping, God-fearing President who will consult with an inaginary being in order to make crucial decisions....just like someone we all know!

If an atheist was running the country, you can guarantee they would not stand in the way of medical advancements to protect cellular 'life'. But I must admit that the way it looks now, there is no way a non-believer could get elected....at least not anytime soon.


-Kevin

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

T'var D. Bassia... That name rings a huge bell.

Ah yes, he posts crappy Star Trek kitbashes at Subspace Comms. Have at him, Corporal!

[Zero]

Just explain that keeping religion out of government is a good thing, as democracies like the one we have are, historically, much better on the people, and human rights, then theocracies. Theocratic government has been shown to screw up a lot of things, and usually lead to absolute supression of everybody, including followers. It's just retarded. What is the reason to believe atheists would persecute christians? We might be tired of ass hole fundies telling us bullshit to try and convert us, or make us believe in some imaginary being, but we won't try and make it illegal to do something christian... even though those ass holes try to legislate their beliefs all the time (not in the form of religious beliefs, but in the form of moralistic laws, such as bans on homosexuality).

[wolveraptor]

Tell himt that while he fears an atheist getting in to power, you fear a fundamentalist Christian becoming president, because it might lead to a horrid decline in education and learning, and a loss of rights for those defined as "sinners" by the Christians.

































....oh wait...

[Aaron]

Thanks for all the help with my response guys. It's hard to think of what to write sometimes. Anyways it should be interesting to see what he comes back with.

[Enforcer Talen]

http://www.infidels.org/misc/humor/lioaca.html

[DPDarkPrimus]

Of course you're going to be persecuted, if you nail yourself to a cross.

[Nephtys]

This guy is a Class 1 Moron. There's little use in continued argument. If he refuses to realize that.. oh crap. America is one of the most Christian-friendly nations out there.

Morons like this believe hearing views that disagree is a form of persecution. You can either talk sense into someone who's only fringe insane, or he'll go and declare you an 'evolutionistic atheist witch agnostic liberal abortionist terror-sympathizer' or something else. So don't get too frustrated if he doesn't get the picture.

Awesome article above, btw.

[Frank Hipper]

The only "persecution" that Christians suffer is the lack of an apparatus, and opposition to the attempts to put one in place, to implement legislated Christian Supremecy.

[wolveraptor]

You know, he's actually right. It's hard to be a dumbass fundie Christian in a debate, 'cause for some unexplicable reason, you're flamed to Kingdom Come (ironic choice of words, I know).

[wautd]

I suggest another Christian exodus to a new promised land. Antartica would fill in nicely

[Zero]

I think you'd get more irony points if there was, instead, a mormon crusade.

[wolveraptor]

I suggest another Christian exodus to a new promised land. Antartica would fill in nicely

Those poor, poor penguins.