Terrifying EU realisation re 'forms'

[Stark]

Holy shit.

I was just reading one of those silly DH comics.

And there's this sabre fight.

And someone says...

'you're using a form x thingy instead of defensive form y lol you fag'

What the fuck? I thought the 'form' thing was an ad hoc rationalisation, describing the different Jedi styles. It's IN UNIVERSE now? That is, frankly, so fucking stupid it boils my mind.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Um, wasn't it always in-universe, since IIRC, it was first listed in the AotC VD?

[Vympel]

WTF? The lightsabre forms are G-canon. RotS novelization- describes Mace's use of Vaapad, aka Form VII, his own peronal form of which he was the only master. They were detailed, in numerical only (not their names) in the AotC:VD, and more extensively in some other source.

[Stark]

WTF? The lightsabre forms are G-canon. RotS novelization- describes Mace's use of Vaapad, aka Form VII, his own peronal form of which he was the only master. They were detailed, in numerical only (not their names) in the AotC:VD, and more extensively in some other source.

Teaches me for reading the EU, I guess.

The whole 'lol I rule you with superdefense form 12 n00b' thing is so WEAK. And 'that was a DARK SIDE way of swinging your sword' was even dumber.

There being different approaches to sabre combat makes sense, and in the stiflingly conventional world of the Jedi giving them lame numbers seems believable, but ACTUALLY TALKING LIKE RPG MUNCHKINS? 'HAHAHA i get +5/+5 to sabre with form 72 dual-wield feat you fag'... honestly.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Sounds like pointless emoting to me.

[HemlockGrey]

"You are using Bennetii's defense against me, eh?"
"I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain."
"Then you must expect me to respond with Capafeio!"
"Naturally."
"Unless someone has studied Bernachelli...which I have!"

[Stark]

Yes, because the low guard is 'from Satan'.

[18-Till-I-Die]

'HAHAHA i get +5/+5 to sabre with form 72 dual-wield feat you fag'... honestly.

Oh that was funny. I fell out of my seat when i read that...suddenly i had this imagine in my head of two Jedi fighting:

"Ha! Super-Attack Formation Delta, beeyoch!!"

"Sniff my balls, Sith, i know Defense Pattern Alpha!"

"Nice comeback...if'in your a GAY Jedi! LOL i pwn u bicth!! Prepare for...Super Attack Alpha-Sigma!!!11!!1"

"No!!! I...am...powerless!"

[Vympel]

Can we get past the pointless hacker speak and perhaps have a quote?

[Ghost Rider]

Obi wan notes in the novel about Anakin at 10 bothering him about form one.

Mace talks about Soresu and Makashi. Form 3 and 5....Obi-Wan's and Anakin's.

Vaapad is already noted.

And Stark...this is no fucking different then mocking about how holding one sword high up in a pose that some Japanese using for better momentum, is just a piss poor defensive stance. Literally you're getting into thinking just because the SW universe goes forms or most of the time actual names this dumb.

Real life swordsmen say this shit.

[Durandal]

Obi wan notes in the novel about Anakin at 10 bothering him about form one.

Mace talks about Soresu and Makashi. Form 3 and 5....Obi-Wan's and Anakin's.

Vaapad is already noted.

And Stark...this is no fucking different then mocking about how holding one sword high up in a pose that some Japanese using for better momentum, is just a piss poor defensive stance. Literally you're getting into thinking just because the SW universe goes forms or most of the time actual names this dumb.

Real life swordsmen say this shit.

When was the last time you saw real-life swordsmen dueling to the death?

[Ghost Rider]

Obi wan notes in the novel about Anakin at 10 bothering him about form one.

Mace talks about Soresu and Makashi. Form 3 and 5....Obi-Wan's and Anakin's.

Vaapad is already noted.

And Stark...this is no fucking different then mocking about how holding one sword high up in a pose that some Japanese using for better momentum, is just a piss poor defensive stance. Literally you're getting into thinking just because the SW universe goes forms or most of the time actual names this dumb.

Real life swordsmen say this shit.

When was the last time you saw real-life swordsmen dueling to the death?

Never, since when the gun came out they tend to go the way of the dodo.

But having someone mock another guy because he's using an inferior weapon or such not is just another tactic.

If you're in a superior position and you want to taunt a foe who cannot kill you without fucking himself over, the best way is get him angry and stupid. Telling him that he's using an inferior style mocks everything about him and will allow the idiot make a mistake.

Swordfighting is about winning and if mocking that person will allow to win, it's another tactic to use, thus my beef with Stark is his whole "They would never say this!!!" is based on the thought that a superior would tell an inferior that he's a fucking moron for his stance, right before he guts him.

[Isolder74]

Even with the advent of the gun, sword dueling continued among the upperclass until the advent of the pistol duel. One on one the gun was not initialy seen as a weapon of honor. Because of the slow reload cycles of early rifles, having a sword by your side was still a good idea until firearms became better.

[Ghost Rider]

Even with the advent of the gun, sword dueling continued among the upperclass until the advent of the pistol duel. One on one the gun was not initialy seen as a weapon of honor. Because of the slow reload cycles of early rifles, having a sword by your side was still a good idea until firearms became better.

An easier way of thinking of it is also you had the time to invest into such.

I mean the Japanese and European upper class men who could invest the minimal time into a gun, likely also had the time to invest in a bunch of techniques with the blade.

But I digress. Mocking another person is not an unheard of ability. You are either foolish or superior...in the end who laying on the ground and who's walking away determines that very quickly.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Hey Stark, cut it with the hacker speak.

FOr anyone who has taken any sort of formal blade instruction, you will find that there are different stances, guard positions, and even forms of sword cuts that are used either offensively or defensively. Even in my minimal training I learned two different stances and guard positions from two different instructors

(When I say minimal, I mean a short stint in the SCA before job and school commitments stole my freetime from me)

[Civil War Man]

Never, since when the gun came out they tend to go the way of the dodo.

But having someone mock another guy because he's using an inferior weapon or such not is just another tactic.

If you're in a superior position and you want to taunt a foe who cannot kill you without fucking himself over, the best way is get him angry and stupid. Telling him that he's using an inferior style mocks everything about him and will allow the idiot make a mistake.

Swordfighting is about winning and if mocking that person will allow to win, it's another tactic to use, thus my beef with Stark is his whole "They would never say this!!!" is based on the thought that a superior would tell an inferior that he's a fucking moron for his stance, right before he guts him.

Backing up GR, mocking is a legitimate strategy in all forms of fighting. Though on a larger scale professionals tend to refer to it as "psychological warfare"

As for mocking the opponent in a sword fight, I have seven words for you all: How appropriate. You fight like a cow!

[Cykeisme]

Moo

[Stark]

This rant powered by Star Wars Mace Windu, but DH: Mace is duelling some guy. Guy uses vaapad move, Mace has a cry about 'leading to the Dark side'.

It was a pretty poor horizontal cut. And it leads to the Dark side. And it's only used in form 7.

The worst part is, Mace senses the darkness. It wasn't the fucking MOVE that was 'evil', it was the state of mind of his opponent. Do the Jedi get fighting style and mediation confused? It's made into a big deal, whereas we see Jedi get stressed, focussed, and sometimes almost angry in battle without people saying 'ooooooh darkside moves'. The whole scene is contrived to demonstrate that character x is flirting with the darkside, that his trainer was evil, etc etc etc, but it's represented as individual moves being 'of the dark side'. Ugh.

It's like saying Aikido is 'good' because its 'defensive': its really just 'reactive', and you can still utterly fuck someone up with it. It's not like you can only protect yourself and not decisively win, as descriptions of Obi wans style seem to suggest. How can you defend yourself in sword combat (where they almost always use hard blocks, sometimes dodges, very very rarely voids) without getting the opportunity to win? Does reversing a block to kill your opponent lead to the dark side?

Actually, maybe they never void because sabres 'stick'.

[Publius]

Generally speaking, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using technical terminology for something as potentially complicated as swordsmanship. In fact, this is desirable; the use of specific terminology allows individuals to convey large amounts of information in an easily understandable fashion by establishing a mutually intelligible framework. Is "I blocked his sword with mine and then attacked him" really preferable to "I parried and then riposted"? The same thing is done in many different fields; grammarians and linguists, for example, use terminology that may seem unintelligible to laymen but which actually convey a very large amount of information in a compact and precise format.

To wit, the use of specific terminology such as names for particular styles of swordsmanship – say, Makashi for Darth Tyranus's preferred fencing style, Ataro for Yoda's acrobatic style, and Djem So for Anakin Skywalker's "power" style – allows swordsmen who are unfamiliar with one another to communicate concepts to one another without needing to familiarize themselves with one another's particular idiom. Any swordsman that says he prefers to use Makashi because it makes cho mai or sun djem easier (for example) has clearly and unambiguously expressed a concrete idea. There is no use of flowery or otherwise imprecise language; any other swordsman familiar with this vocabulary would immediately know that the first swordsman prefers a style designed for fighting another swordsman, minimizing overall body movement and concentrating on precise cuts, parries, and ripostes, because it makes it easier to cut or otherwise damage his opponent's weapon or to cut off his opponent's weapon hand. Which way of saying this is faster?

There is nothing wrong with the concept of clearly delineated swordsmanship styles. They certainly are not static and hard and fast; the fact that someone favors one form does not mean that they are only able to use that one form. The novelization of Revenge of the Sith explains that Kenobi and Skywalker used multiple different styles fluidly during their duel with Tyranus; Kenobi used Ataro (Form IV) and Shii-Cho (Form I) before reverting to his preferred Soresu (Form III), while Skywalker used Ataro and Shien (not one of the numbered forms) before reverting to his preferred Djem So (Form V). This is perfectly reasonable; Tyranus is an experienced swordsman and duelist and would naturally tailor his tactics to the styles his opponents used. By altering their styles throughout the fight, the Jedi were able to throw Tyranus off balance and gain the upper hand. This is perfectly good tactics on their part, and there is nothing ridiculous about using subterfuge and deception to confuse and defeat an enemy.

Nor are the forms so simplistic as en garde stances. Mr. Robert Brown identified a number of en garde stances used in Kendo in the films, notably the middle guard (chudan no kamae), the low guard (gedan no kamae), the upper guard (jodan no kamae), the shoulder guard (hasso no kamae – the Revenge of the Sith Visual Dictionary identifies this as the Niman stance), and the hidden guard (waki no kamae). In The Phantom Menace, Qui-Gon Jinn uses the shoulder guard while Obi-Wan Kenobi uses a poorly-done middle guard, despite the fact that they are both said to prefer Ataro. In Attack of the Clones, Mace Windu frequently uses what appears to be the low guard, while both Tyranus and Skywalker use high guards. This despite the fact that both Jinn and Kenobi use Ataro in The Phantom Menace, while in Attack of the Clones Tyranus and Skywalker use Makashi and Djem So, respectively.

There is nothing wrong with a swordsman deriding another swordsman's choice of form. It is a question of professional pride and competitiveness; a fencer who uses a pistol grip may regard a French grip as simplistic, for example, or a professional marksman may develop an intense dislike for a certain make of firearm. A Kendo practitioner might develop a dismissive attitude toward other styles of martial art; many Orientalists are unduly contemptuous toward European fencing, for example. Similarly, Tyranus, an accomplished Makashi duelist, regarded Ataro as ridiculous and Djem So as inelegant and brutish. This is a matter of personal taste and arrogance; despite his contempt for Kenobi's and Skywalker's styles, Tyranus found to his dismay that these two "clowns" as he thought of them might actually defeat him (as indeed Skywalker did, despite his inelegance as a duelist).

As regards the objection to the concept of an "evil" style, one should remember that it is not the form itself that is dangerous. A form is simply a given set of footwork, attacks, parries, and ripostes that complement one another well enough to form a complete style of swordsmanship. Juyo is regarded as extremely difficult to master, for example, because it requires a high degree of mastery of all the other forms and is physically demanding; its counterpart Vaapad is regarded as "spiritually dangerous" because of the mindset it requires, not because of anything inherent in the physical maneuvers themselves. As Windu himself considered it, "immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness," requiring that one "allow himself to enjoy the fight," to "give himself over to the thrill of battle" and "the rush of winning." For this reason – i.e., a mental state that resembles the bloodlust of berserker fury or running amok in some respects – Vaapad is considered "the penumbra of the dark side." It is not that there is a "dark side" way of swinging a lightsaber, but rather a state of mind in which one swings that lightsaber.

This is admittedly more philosophical than mechanical. That is of course because the Jedi Order is first and foremost a religious cult, and would naturally have a preoccupation with the religious aspect of their particular branch of swordsmanship. The Jedi have a curious habit of forgetting that not everyone can sense the Force, nor does everyone share their particular view of light and dark and good and evil. Possibly because they cannot imagine not feeling the Force, they lack the ability to empathize with the perspective of more mundane individuals. The Jedi will therefore have different priorities and place more emphasis on some ideas than would seem justified to others. This must be remembered when regarding how Jedi react to certain things, especially where the dark side of the Force is concerned.

[Molyneux]

"You are using Bennetii's defense against me, eh?"
"I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain."
"Then you must expect me to respond with Capafeio!"
"Naturally."
"Unless someone has studied Bernachelli...which I have!"

YES! Princess Bride! Awesomest movie ever!!
"Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die."

[Crown]

<snip>

As someone who has ofted sighed when talking about Jedi lightsabre 'forms' or 'styles' I feel I needed to post the following; I was wrong, and Publius has converted me.

[Lord Revan]

as Publius said it's not physical moves themselves, but mindset needed for certain style.

KOTOR2 has best description of the Saber styles I've seen, the styles focus on some aspects of saber combat (some times at cost of others), but can be used in any situation.

[Crown]

That is of course because the Jedi Order is first and foremost a religious cult

Seriously, could you cut that shit out? A cult is defined as;

1.
a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
b. The followers of such a religion or sect.
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
5.
a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
b. The object of such devotion.
6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

Not that the rest of the points are any better. If the Force didn't exist and was just a figment of their imagination you would have a point, as it is your acting like a dick.

[Publius]

The term "cult" was not used in the pejorative sociological sense, but rather the religious sense of a clearly defined set of observances and rituals, i.e., the "cultural" aspect of a religion; the Jedi Order is a cult in the sense that it is a community of meditative monastic devotees, who happen to have developed certain martial arts stemming from their religious beliefs and convictions (the use of the Force as a sort of galactic policeman is hardly integral to Jedi theology). This has no pejorative meaning; notice that the Catholic Church, for example, uses this same meaning in reference to itself, such as with the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments (in Latin, Congregatio de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum) or the traditional veneration of individual saints (each saint is said to have a "cult").

Nevertheless, in retrospect, it is perhaps preferable to avoid the term, as most people probably read it in its sociological sense rather than the ecclesiastical one. If this is how you read the term, then the wrong impression has been given; it is not intended to suggest that anything regarding their beliefs. Perhaps it is better to say that the Jedi Order is first and foremost a religious society and as a result would be naturally concerned with the metaphysical aspect of their martial arts. Does that clarify the intended meaning?

[Darth Wong]

Never use something called the "Free Online Dictionary". Merriam-Webster's definition of "cult" is:

1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion