Who should have won at Endor?

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-05-25 04:55pm

Found this debate, thought it looked interesting
here is the link
http://s11.invisionfree.com/Ultimatum/i ... ntry263415
Any comments regarding this discussion?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-05-25 04:57pm

Rebels won by pure luck. If Chewie didn't grab the AT-ST...the Rebels and Ewoks were toast.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-05-25 05:21pm

I agree, I was Darth Vader in that argument. Champion of the Forces of the Galactic Empire.

LONG LIVE THE EMPIRE!

MrAnderson · Post by **MrAnderson** » 2005-05-25 05:27pm

The ground battle and space battle really did not matter.

Luke with the help of Anakin returned destroys the Emperor and a few minutes later Anakin dies. This leaves Luke (who only left the DS cause he saw it was dying) to do whatever he wants to the place.

Imagine Luke working his way through the DS to the main control center. He takes over either physically or mentally.

Imagine the Rebel Fleet. It is being decimated since the shield was never lowered. Just as things look truly grim the DS fires again and BOOM the Executor explodes. The DS keeps firing and Star Destroyers fall one after another.

The battles ends with Han, Leia, Chewie, and the droids either dead or in retreat but the rebel fleet survives while the Imperial Squadron is decimated.

Even worse the DS is now a rebel asset. Though the smart thing to do would be for Luke to either self destruct (assuming there is one) the DS or suicide it into a nearby planet. It would be a stretch to assume he could retain control of the place long enough for the rebels to take over.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2005-05-25 05:37pm

He takes over either physically or mentally.

He's not powerful enough to do either of these.

Imagine the Rebel Fleet. It is being decimated since the shield was never lowered. Just as things look truly grim the DS fires again and BOOM the Executor explodes. The DS keeps firing and Star Destroyers fall one after another.

How do you propose Luke single handedly be able to fire the Death Star. How can you assume he would even know how to do it?

He'd be killed before he got there. There were thousands of troops aboard, Luke would've been shot down eventually.

MrAnderson · Post by **MrAnderson** » 2005-05-25 05:56pm

The Original Nex wrote:
He takes over either physically or mentally.
He's not powerful enough to do either of these.

Imagine the Rebel Fleet. It is being decimated since the shield was never lowered. Just as things look truly grim the DS fires again and BOOM the Executor explodes. The DS keeps firing and Star Destroyers fall one after another.
How do you propose Luke single handedly be able to fire the Death Star. How can you assume he would even know how to do it?

He'd be killed before he got there. There were thousands of troops aboard, Luke would've been shot down eventually.

Assuming they have reason to attack him. He wears no identification and is dressed in an all black outfit. A few "you dont need to see my ID" sort of things to get him where he is and then similar mental commands to the guy holding the firing control.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-05-25 06:02pm

Assuming they have reason to attack him. He wears no identification and is dressed in an all black outfit. A few "you dont need to see my ID" sort of things to get him where he is and then similar mental commands to the guy holding the firing control.

So your saying that he could mind trick every trooper and officer from the throne room to the overbridge, as well as by passing any automated security systems by virtue of his outfit alone?

Him fighting his way there is more realistic (of course, thats insane too.)

MrAnderson · Post by **MrAnderson** » 2005-05-25 06:04pm

Pure Sabacc wrote:
Assuming they have reason to attack him. He wears no identification and is dressed in an all black outfit. A few "you dont need to see my ID" sort of things to get him where he is and then similar mental commands to the guy holding the firing control.
So your saying that he could mind trick every trooper and officer from the throne room to the overbridge, as well as by passing any automated security systems by virtue of his outfit alone?
Him fighting his way there is more realistic (of course, thats insane too.)

No, but you seem to be saying that every one of those people are going to instantly draw and shoot at him.

All Luke really has to do is take down one Stormie and steal his armor. Short or not it has worked before.

What does it matter anyway? Luke is in the Emperors throne room. Pure speculation on my part but I wouldnt be the slightest surprise if there were not override controls in the throne room. This is the Emperor we are talking about.

Firefox · Post by **Firefox** » 2005-05-25 06:07pm

MrAnderson wrote:
Pure Sabacc wrote:
Assuming they have reason to attack him. He wears no identification and is dressed in an all black outfit. A few "you dont need to see my ID" sort of things to get him where he is and then similar mental commands to the guy holding the firing control.
So your saying that he could mind trick every trooper and officer from the throne room to the overbridge, as well as by passing any automated security systems by virtue of his outfit alone?
Him fighting his way there is more realistic (of course, thats insane too.)
No, but you seem to be saying that every one of those people are going to instantly draw and shoot at him.

All Luke really has to do is take down one Stormie and steal his armor. Short or not it has worked before.

What does it matter anyway? Luke is in the Emperors throne room. Pure speculation on my part but I wouldnt be the slightest surprise if there were not override controls in the throne room. This is the Emperor we are talking about.

I doubt he was ready to do as you suggest, which sounds like nothing more than fanwanking.

Had Chewie not commandeered that AT-ST, the Imperials would likely have won the ground battle, and the space battle would've been theirs by default. And Luke would've had to find a way off the station, or die.

MrAnderson · Post by **MrAnderson** » 2005-05-25 06:09pm

Firefox wrote:
MrAnderson wrote:
Pure Sabacc wrote: So your saying that he could mind trick every trooper and officer from the throne room to the overbridge, as well as by passing any automated security systems by virtue of his outfit alone?
Him fighting his way there is more realistic (of course, thats insane too.)
No, but you seem to be saying that every one of those people are going to instantly draw and shoot at him.

All Luke really has to do is take down one Stormie and steal his armor. Short or not it has worked before.

What does it matter anyway? Luke is in the Emperors throne room. Pure speculation on my part but I wouldnt be the slightest surprise if there were not override controls in the throne room. This is the Emperor we are talking about.
I doubt he was ready to do as you suggest, which sounds like nothing more than fanwanking.

Had Chewie not commandeered that AT-ST, the Imperials would likely have won the ground battle, and the space battle would've been theirs by default. And Luke would've had to find a way off the station, or die.

No more fanwanking then saying Chewie fails on the ground.

BTW, we know from the EU that the Imperial forces completely fall apart after the Emperor. So anything is possible.

Firefox · Post by **Firefox** » 2005-05-25 06:14pm

MrAnderson wrote:No more fanwanking then saying Chewie fails on the ground.

How the hell is that fanwanking? That was a condition of the scenario that would've assumed Chewie made a mistake instead of experiencing near blind luck. Luke faking his way past thousands of Imperial forces on the Death Star, taking control of it, and operating its superlaser are clearly examples of wanking.

BTW, we know from the EU that the Imperial forces completely fall apart after the Emperor. So anything is possible.

And if the rebels on Endor failed to destroy the shield generator, the Death Star survives. The whole Alliance operation fails as a result, regardless of losses to the Imperial fleet.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-05-25 06:32pm

I will side with the Empire here. And think about it, would Darth Vader had realistically turned in the first place? This is the guy who butchered the Jedi Order (including younglings), his wife, and his former mentor. Why would he die to save a son he barely knows and even then only from the opposing side of the war. Vader hates the Rebellion.

And there is no way Luke, mentally shattered by his father's death, tortured by Force Lightning, and convince that his friends are dying, would be in a state to take over a station with a crew of millions. And millions of people are required to fire the superlaser and make it work, Luke has nowhere near the Forcepower to do it on his own. ANd eventually he would come across a strong minded Imperial, they are not all weak minded retards, only the ones on God-Forsake specks of dirt like Tatooine.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-05-25 06:43pm

Hmm.. how easy or difficult would it to be for the security forces aboard the DS2 to notice, locate and stop Luke?

I figure if the ground battle was lost, but the events in the throne room went the way they did in RotJ, the whole scenario hinges on that.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-05-25 06:55pm

Very easy, Luke wasn't about to leave behind his father's body. And I think that given the billion credit reward on his head that his face would be well-known, he did blow up the first death star. And the rebs would have been wiped out by ISD's alon by the time Luke figured out how to use the DS II Superlaser (which is extremely unlikely in itself).

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-05-25 06:58pm

Assuming Luke could get to wherever Moff Jerjerrod was, he could coerce him by affect his mind with the Force, or threatening him, to stop firing or turn the superlaser on the Imperial ships.

That's a very big assumption of course.
How many stormies can Luke take on?

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-05-25 07:06pm

In his state at the time? Maybe 3. If four guys fired fully automatic weapons at you from differant angles at the same time, there is no way you could swing your lightsaber around that fast. Or they could stun him (which can't be deflected) since he has a huge bounty on his head. That's what Daala did to Callista in DarkSaber, she used a stun blast, the Jedi can't stop it. And this is after Luke was tortured to the Brink of death by Force lightning.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2005-05-25 07:49pm

There are a lot of "if's" in this thread. I'll assume that the ground battle goes against the Rebellion, the space battle proceeds as it did (rebellion destroys Executor, etc.), and Vader turns on the Emperor and then dies. How long does Luke have to either a) escape, b) lower the shield, or c) use the DS2 against the Imperials?

Luke would do whatever he could to help the rebellion, including using DS2 against the Imperial fleet, or possibly destroying it himself, once Palpatine was dead. I suspect it would be easier for him to sabotage DS2's power plant than for him to take control of its superlaser. I don't know how he would lower the shield, as that was the whole point of the mission to Endor's surface, and escape is somewhat pointless, as the Empire would then still have a Death Star.

Could he do it? Realistically, the odds are drastically against him, but then so was a Rebel victory on the surface, and that did happen, even if it was due to "luck."

Jack Bauer · Post by **Jack Bauer** » 2005-05-25 08:26pm

The Empire. "A legion of my best troops awaits them". (Apparently not though)

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2005-05-25 08:39pm

SancheztheWhaler wrote:Luke would do whatever he could to help the rebellion, including using DS2 against the Imperial fleet, or possibly destroying it himself, once Palpatine was dead. I suspect it would be easier for him to sabotage DS2's power plant than for him to take control of its superlaser. I don't know how he would lower the shield, as that was the whole point of the mission to Endor's surface, and escape is somewhat pointless, as the Empire would then still have a Death Star.

According to various materials, the Emperor's throne room acted as an "overbridge", capable of taking over control of the entire Death Star II if he so desired; Luke should be able to lock out the turbolifts and control the station at least for a little while.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2005-05-26 03:18pm

SancheztheWhaler wrote:There are a lot of "if's" in this thread. I'll assume that the ground battle goes against the Rebellion, the space battle proceeds as it did (rebellion destroys Executor, etc.), and Vader turns on the Emperor and then dies.

The Executor probably wouldn't have been destroyed if the ground battle had gone the Empire's way. Ackbar only ordered the assault on the Executor to "give those fighters more time" after the shield had been taken down. In this scenario, once it became clear that the shield would not be deactivated, Ackbar would have ordered a retreat, which would have been hindered by the ImpFleet itself, after all, that's what the fleet was there for: "We only need to keep them from escaping". This implies that should the Rebels attempt to flee, the Imperial Fleet should open fire and destroy them (not simply try and hold them off as they did when the Rebels came in to point blank range). The Emperor's plan would have been executed perfectly, with the exception that niether he, nor Lord Vader would survive.

How long does Luke have to either a) escape,

This is his best bet, since he'll, presumably, still be dragging Vader with him (that's probably how he got past everyone in RotJ, no one questioned him because he had Vader in tow)

b) lower the shield,

He'd have to be on Endor to do that.

or c) use the DS2 against the Imperials?

It's clear from ANH and RotJ that it takes multiple people to fire the Death Star. Luke couldn't do it on his own even if he knew how.

Luke would do whatever he could to help the rebellion, including using DS2 against the Imperial fleet, or possibly destroying it himself, once Palpatine was dead. I suspect it would be easier for him to sabotage DS2's power plant than for him to take control of its superlaser. I don't know how he would lower the shield, as that was the whole point of the mission to Endor's surface, and escape is somewhat pointless, as the Empire would then still have a Death Star.

My only question is "how would he be able to sabotage it?"

He'd have to instantly come up with a plan and somehow execute it before the Rebel Fleet was utterly destroyed. The Rebel assault was planned for weeks and still very nearly failed. Having Vader with him wouldn't help for something like this. Vader wouldn't survive long enough to be of any sort of free pass through the station, let alone be able to help destroy the station (it's likely Vader wouldn't have helped Luke destroy it anyways). The odds against Luke are even greater than those against the Rebel operation as a whole.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2005-05-26 03:29pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote:In his state at the time? Maybe 3. If four guys fired fully automatic weapons at you from differant angles at the same time, there is no way you could swing your lightsaber around that fast. Or they could stun him (which can't be deflected) since he has a huge bounty on his head. That's what Daala did to Callista in DarkSaber, she used a stun blast, the Jedi can't stop it. And this is after Luke was tortured to the Brink of death by Force lightning.

Is this true?

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2005-05-26 04:05pm

Robert Walper wrote:
Trooper TK12746 wrote:In his state at the time? Maybe 3. If four guys fired fully automatic weapons at you from differant angles at the same time, there is no way you could swing your lightsaber around that fast. Or they could stun him (which can't be deflected) since he has a huge bounty on his head. That's what Daala did to Callista in DarkSaber, she used a stun blast, the Jedi can't stop it. And this is after Luke was tortured to the Brink of death by Force lightning.
Is this true?

I've never heard anything along those lines in any official sources, but it's not implausible.

xcr · Post by **xcr** » 2005-05-26 04:35pm

As I recall, the stun blast (in ANH) is an expanding circle... not sure how one could deflect that with a saber.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-05-26 05:11pm

The reason why it appears as an expanding circle in ANH is because the ring is moving straight towards the camera. That's probably the root of where Kevin J. Anderson got the idea that it was too wide for a lightsaber to deflect. I don't think the ring is supposed to be any wider than the caliber of the blaster's muzzle aperture; if anything, the stun has to be a regular blaster shot that is lacking the component that delivers most of the heat.
Perhaps it really is supposed to be undeflectable anyway, but then wouldn't all the Jedi have been out of a job a lot earlier?

Trooper TK12746 wrote:In his state at the time? Maybe 3. If four guys fired fully automatic weapons at you from differant angles at the same time, there is no way you could swing your lightsaber around that fast.

Agreed. Jedi have been shown to be susceptible to overwhelming firepower.
I'd say Luke wouldn't just be defending himself (he'd be moving, dodging and attacking too), but regardless of the number of Stormtroopers he can handle, I'm sure the troop complement aboard the Death Star exceeds that amount. Even with the disarray caused by the Emperor's death he'd still have to wade his way through blaster bolts and white armor to get to wherever he was going on an intact DS (as opposed to one that was about the blow up, the way it actually turned out).

Iceberg wrote:According to various materials, the Emperor's throne room acted as an "overbridge", capable of taking over control of the entire Death Star II if he so desired; Luke should be able to lock out the turbolifts and control the station at least for a little while.

If this is the case then I guess it'll be a lot easier for the Rebels.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2005-05-26 05:20pm

Cykeisme wrote:
Iceberg wrote:According to various materials, the Emperor's throne room acted as an "overbridge", capable of taking over control of the entire Death Star II if he so desired; Luke should be able to lock out the turbolifts and control the station at least for a little while.
If this is the case then I guess it'll be a lot easier for the Rebels.

This is assuming he'd be able to use the Emperor's controls at all. No doubt they're encoded.

There's really no way for Luke to take over the Death Star. He'd have to try and escape (only to be trapped beneath the shield) or try and destroy it from the inside (a feat more unlikely than all the unlikely/lucky Rebel victories in the OT combined).