Walking Machines And Practical Uses

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2005-05-25 07:55pm

Just the other day, I stumbled across a site that some may have seen before over here. Now, while I have debated the military infeasibility of mechas, bipedal or otherwise, often enough. I have suddenly started wondering about other uses.

I remain somewhat unconvinced that the GE Walking Truck and similar concepts from America and Britain were ever going to achieve much. The ATV market has vehicles like the SUSV that can conquer basically any terrain, as can the large mobile launchers for ICBMs most the time or the Snow Bird 6 that uses Archimedes' screws and tracks to overcome any harsh ground or water body.

But there is always that six-legged forestry machine by John Deere and there may be other examples. So given the technology matures somewhat, could these machines ever find applications other than the one mentioned, or are they always going to be seen as needlessly complex, expensive and machines without any practical use?

Mayabird · Post by **Mayabird** » 2005-05-25 09:08pm

Look, if Godzilla ever challenges Tokyo to a dancing contest, Japan is going to need a giant walking robot that can dance in order to avert massive sparking exploding seizure-inducing destruction.

Tasoth · Post by **Tasoth** » 2005-05-26 12:22am

As much as it pains me to say it, walking machines will never out shine good old fashion tracks and tires. I know, I like mecha, but tracks are just infinitely superior for weight bearing and moving things at a good clip through most terrain.

Guy N. Cognito · Post by **Guy N. Cognito** » 2005-05-26 12:36am

It takes far less energy to roll on an axel then to have a machine walk the same distance. Only on extremely rough terrain could I see the mech having an advantage. But it's such a small advantage I'd see it as negligible.

Rocker5150 · Post by **Rocker5150** » 2005-05-26 02:15am

There is a paralyzed man with an implanted sensor in his brain. He is able to write e-mail, play video games, open the curtains, and a few other basic tasks using only his thoughts. Walking is much more difficult, not just because of the challenge of moving the legs, but because the computer system didn't deal with balance. Maybe the development of walking robotics can help this medical advancement.

-Kevin

Post by **weemadando** » 2005-05-26 02:20am

Actually exceptionally rough terrain is worse for mechs... I'd rather just bog or stall than topple to the ground and destroy my mode of transport.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2005-05-26 04:16am

The only reason the walking mecha for forestry exists is because tracked equipment compresses too large a ground area, damaging trees, which aren't being cut down. Improving all terrian performance wasn't a part of it.

Post by **weemadando** » 2005-05-26 06:18am

Please point that out to these guys - the wall of ignorance is strong with them...

They keep falling back on the "things with legs move better over rough ground"... Using donkeys/horses in rough country as an example.

Thats because a FUCKING DONKEY has less mass, and FAR LESS surface contact weight than a fucking MBT! Its like saying - here is a bowling ball, it sinks, therefore it sucks, because fish can swim!

Oh and they are doing some great twisting of arguments as well. When they asked me how I was going to get an MBT to the top of a cliff I responded with the fact that I'd use a helicopter gunship for that role... But apparently that means that I am saying that helicopters are the only thing on the battlefield and own everything... So they came back and said that tanks are still dominant because of the fact that helicopters are fragile...

GAH!

kheegster · Post by **kheegster** » 2005-05-26 08:51am

I think the exoskeleton-type walkers would be useful for the paralysed, to improve the load-carrying abilities of a person etc., but not for replacing wheeled/tracked vehicles.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2005-05-26 11:46am

I mentioned that Plustech walker only helped by preserving the land they were harvesting for trees. But they still maintain all terrain capability is the main reason. I have already stated the SUSV can do far rougher terrain than that.

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2005-05-26 12:54pm

While a two-legged walking mech may be inherently unstable, a four-legged mech would probably be better off.

I'm fond of concepts like the tachikoma from GitS, or the quad bases from the Armored Core series - four legs are inherently more stable than two, and if you can coordinate them effectively, you can get them up to a fair turn of speed in a variety of environments.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-05-26 12:58pm

A mountain goat can traverse territory that's impassable to even the most accomplished off-road wheeled vehicle, but at great cost in efficiency. Wheeled vehicles rule when it comes to efficiency, which is why mankind invented the wheel in the first place.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2005-05-26 01:01pm

Darth Wong wrote:A mountain goat can traverse territory that's impassable to even the most accomplished off-road wheeled vehicle, but at great cost in efficiency. Wheeled vehicles rule when it comes to efficiency, which is why mankind invented the wheel in the first place.

That's, generally, the reasoning of the guys who inspired me to start this thread. They accept the lack of any real military use, but the idea of crossing terrain that only humans and animals can is what gives the thing purpose. I just don't find it possible without a hugely complex sensor array to give spatial awareness to the pilot to avoid tripping, slipping or misplacing the legs since the analogy of a human body is flawed as your brain subconciously deals with these annoying mathematical problems.

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-05-26 02:09pm

It might be easier to fly low over rough terrain than to use a walking mech. Suppose we develop some sort of hovering system?

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2005-05-26 02:55pm

wolveraptor wrote:It might be easier to fly low over rough terrain than to use a walking mech. Suppose we develop some sort of hovering system?

Like a... hovercraft?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-05-26 02:55pm

We already have. Helicopters.

Laughing Mechanicus · Post by **Laughing Mechanicus** » 2005-05-26 04:56pm

This sort of wankage isn't limited to fanboys. Last year I had a module on robotic locomotion as part of my cybernetics degree and the lecturer pretty much seemed to consider limbed vehicles (mechs) to be the best form of locomotion. He even went so far as to say that a limbed vehicle could cross a larger void than a tracked vehicle could, demonstrating with the example of a small tracked vehicle versus a huge limbed one, he seemingly noticed no flaw in this analysis. Ofcourse from his point of view things like efficiency and complexity aren't so important because most vehicles they design/make will be one off research tools and likely never leave a lab.

What the hell is this site though? Is it like some sort of elaborate fan fiction or have they actually got people to invest enough money in them that they have built a "custom mecha factory"? Theres a page claiming their "mecha" should have no problem reaching 160mph and have "limited flight capabilities"? The picture gallery is hilarious, it's mostly either pictures of anime cons, pointless 3D models or pictures of I beams with a caption like "Mecha legs".

Not once do they mention the correct term for such a vehicle (limbed) but they point out at every oppurtunity that their mecha are going to be just like the super cool anime ones. They simply have no notion of the unfathomably complex control system they will need to let this thing walk very slowly over a solid flat surface (or even stand unaided), building it will be like playing with fucking lego bricks compared to that nightmare. They will need an accurate computer model of every single little component in the entire bloody vehicle, a vast array of sensors to even hope to keep track of the leg positions alone.

The whole site seems based on the (alas) flawed notion that sufficient masturbation can solve any engineering challenge. It's not quite as bad as that guy who was making a powered exoskeleton in his backyard, that thing is going to rip him to apart if he's dumb enough to ever try and use it...

wolveraptor · Post by **wolveraptor** » 2005-05-26 07:42pm

Admiral Valdemar wrote:
wolveraptor wrote:It might be easier to fly low over rough terrain than to use a walking mech. Suppose we develop some sort of hovering system?
Like a... hovercraft?

Can those travel across rocky ground? I thought the thing on the bottom would burst.

Ideally, this thing would not be so cumbersome as a helicopter, whose huge blades make it unsuitable for tight navigation. Besides, helicopters that low to thr ground rae just asking for a missile strike.

Admiral Valdemar · Post by **Admiral Valdemar** » 2005-05-26 08:00pm

wolveraptor wrote:
Can those travel across rocky ground? I thought the thing on the bottom would burst.

Ideally, this thing would not be so cumbersome as a helicopter, whose huge blades make it unsuitable for tight navigation. Besides, helicopters that low to thr ground rae just asking for a missile strike.

The "thing on the bottom" or skirt only helps to trap the air underneath and make it more efficient. The first hovercraft didn't have a skirt, and they are made of industrial rubber that is quite hard to ruin easily. The main problem would be having enough thrust to go up steep inclines.

A helicopter would be a better idea, or a tilt-rotor or tilt-wing concept.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2005-05-26 08:02pm

wolveraptor wrote:
Can those travel across rocky ground?

Sufficiently rocky ground will stop anything that can't outright fly. its just a matter of how big the vehicle is, and how big and densely packed the rocks are. With a mecha, the height to which the thing can lift its legs also becomes vital. Humans are able to deal with a range of obstacles because we have highly flexible joints. We can pull ourselves up with only our upper body strength, and we can lift our legs up a quite significant fraction of our total heights.

I thought the thing on the bottom would burst.

That's just not possible, because the skirts on a hovercraft are open at the bottom, its not a sealed bag. They can however tear, through the rubber is quite thick and strong, which will immobilize the hovercraft.

Ideally, this thing would not be so cumbersome as a helicopter, whose huge blades make it unsuitable for tight navigation. Besides, helicopters that low to thr ground rae just asking for a missile strike.

Anything worth the cost of a missile, which can be located on the battlefield, will be shot at with missiles. If the US military is involved, then things, which are not worth the cost if a missile will also be shot at with missiles.

Winston Blake · Post by **Winston Blake** » 2005-05-27 03:58am

Ages ago i used to frequent this site and although i was really just there to find out just how realistic mecha were (did i mention this was ages ago?) and never got really involved (unlike SDN). As a matter of fact i think that was my first BBS.

Aaron Ash wrote:What the hell is this site though? Is it like some sort of elaborate fan fiction or have they actually got people to invest enough money in them that they have built a "custom mecha factory"?

The story is that one of the guys was talking to his friend "What did you really want to do when you were a kid?" "Build a mecha" "That's so stupid. Let's do it."

AFAIK it's all funded out of their own pocket and they've put a huge amount of effort getting permission for/etc and constructing a big building to base their stuff at. Essentially it's a bunch of normal (qualified) guys who are huge anime/BT fans and have spent several years working on this stuff from the ground up. Personally i think it's pretty pointless, and they'll just get 15 minutes of fame and then all the mecha fans will go back to watching their poor fansubs.

Theres a page claiming their "mecha" should have no problem reaching 160mph and have "limited flight capabilities"? The picture gallery is hilarious, it's mostly either pictures of anime cons, pointless 3D models or pictures of I beams with a caption like "Mecha legs".

IIRC The 'flight capabilities' is a pie-in-the-sky thing for way in the future. At the moment their just trying to design and make a proof-of-concept biped.

Not once do they mention the correct term for such a vehicle (limbed) but they point out at every oppurtunity that their mecha are going to be just like the super cool anime ones.

Eh? Where do they say that? The MPS Mk1 designs look like a toaster on legs.

They simply have no notion of the unfathomably complex control system they will need to let this thing walk very slowly over a solid flat surface (or even stand unaided), building it will be like playing with fucking lego bricks compared to that nightmare. They will need an accurate computer model of every single little component in the entire bloody vehicle, a vast array of sensors to even hope to keep track of the leg positions alone.

I understand that the idea of a walking vehicle is pretty pointless, but they have put a lot of effort into the computer control aspects of it. I'm not supporting the idea that mecha will ever be commonly used, but i can't help wishing i was one of those guys and just trying to make the first 'true' one. The idea is that applications will become apparent once the technology is shown feasible (if not economically) like the laser (or a hundred other examples they can recite).

The whole site seems based on the (alas) flawed notion that sufficient masturbation can solve any engineering challenge. It's not quite as bad as that guy who was making a powered exoskeleton in his backyard, that thing is going to rip him to apart if he's dumb enough to ever try and use it...

There was quite a heated argument with that guy and the mechaps guys, with him and others lambasting them for spending years and years on this thing and having nothing to show for it but a so-far-incomplete 'Mecha Construction Facility' building and a whole bunch of designs and calculations merely on paper. That guy's mech was apparently described as nothing more than a 'glorified lawn sculpture' by one of the lead mechaps guys and that he'd used information from mechaps without permission. I don't know what happened in the end.

wilfulton · Post by **wilfulton** » 2005-05-27 12:10pm

There is a military app for such technology. The army has already developed a prototype of an exoskeleton for a soldier to wear that can improve his load bearing ability. Of coures it is gasoline powered, and can move at a very slow walk. With that, it's only use is future research, as I would refuse to wear something like that out in the battlefield.

Me personally, the only exoskeleton I need to carry excess gear should never be to far away, it's called a vehicle, and it has wheels.

Post by **Beowulf** » 2005-05-27 12:23pm

Molyneux wrote:While a two-legged walking mech may be inherently unstable, a four-legged mech would probably be better off.

I'm fond of concepts like the tachikoma from GitS, or the quad bases from the Armored Core series - four legs are inherently more stable than two, and if you can coordinate them effectively, you can get them up to a fair turn of speed in a variety of environments.

Tachikiomas have wheels at the bottom of their feet, which are used pretty much everytime they want to go fast.

Molyneux · Post by **Molyneux** » 2005-05-27 02:58pm

Beowulf wrote:
Molyneux wrote:While a two-legged walking mech may be inherently unstable, a four-legged mech would probably be better off.

I'm fond of concepts like the tachikoma from GitS, or the quad bases from the Armored Core series - four legs are inherently more stable than two, and if you can coordinate them effectively, you can get them up to a fair turn of speed in a variety of environments.
Tachikiomas have wheels at the bottom of their feet, which are used pretty much everytime they want to go fast.

That's *why* I like the tachikoma (aside from the ungodly Bambi-ish cuteness of their personalities) - they can deal with a flat, smooth surface much better than, say, a Gundam could. They can ROLL. If they're in a situation where they have to, say, climb a wall or deal with extremely uneven ground, they're both well-supported enough to deal with it, and light enough that they won't smash the ground under them when they walk. It's a light, fast design that can deal with just about any terrain effectively, including tight spaces in urban environments.

Much, MUCH better than a clunker...

AMX · Post by **AMX** » 2005-05-27 05:33pm

FWIW, there are currently "walking" machines in military service - our engineer corps has so-called "walking excavators" for use in extreme terrain.
Of course, they are about as unlike the stereotypical mech as it gets...

http://www.menzimuck.com/index-e.htm (the firm that invented it)
http://www.kaiser.li/content.php?SiteId=20&lang=eng (has some nice-ish pics)