Palpatine was NOT deformed

[Spanky The Dolphin]

No, don't bend to these losers!! Hold your fucking ground!!

[Straha]

It has nothing to do with a notion of invincibility.

That's what this boils down to really. What you've (not you in particular, but you understand what I mean) said is:
"The Visual Dictionary says it was merely him dropping his disguise" When, in fact, it says both things.
"Well, it's not consistent with other events of Force Lightning!" When we've never seen a bout of Force Lightning projected by one Sith Master with 'Unlimited Power', focused on a lightsaber, and then projected back at him with whatever light-side force abilties Mace had.
"Well... we've already seen him look like this before as Sidious!" See above picture.


I'm not disagreeing with you wholly, I've said from my first post in this thread, and from other threads about this, that both descriptions are true, part of it is Darth Dorian Sidious coming out, but another part of it is the lightning. Objecting to this when everything else disagrees with you except for this assertion that it's inconsistent (The Force, and force users, being Inconsistent? PSHAW!) is just pure lunacy.

EDIT: Fixed the last sentence.

[Noble Ire]

While I agree that some "disfigurement" took place, it happened to the face we know as Chancellor Palpatine. So in a sense, the mask of Palpatine was deformed and "burned" away to reveal the true face of Darth Sidious.

Exactly. The face of Palpatine was a mere illusion, and its destruction meant nothing much to Palpatine, and in fact even built up sympathy for him.
By the way Straha, I really dont see where your getting the whole "Mace is superior to Sidious" thing from. Even in Stover's novelization, it makes it seem like Palpatine was faking his defeat in the end. Besides, even if Mace was more powerful, its not like he was amplifying Sidious's lightning when he reflected it, as you seem to be suggesting.

[Utsanomiko]

That's what this boils down to really. What you've (not you in particular, but you understand what I mean) said is:
"The Visual Dictionary says it was merely him dropping his disguise" When, in fact, it says both things.
"Well, it's not consistent with other events of Force Lightning!" When we've never seen a bout of Force Lightning projected by one Sith Master with 'Unlimited Power', focused on a lightsaber, and then projected back at him with whatever light-side force abilties Mace had.

We've seen lethal levels of force lightning, and that's sufficient. Reflection from a lightsaber is irrelevant. It didn't scar Luke, it didn't scar Windu, and it's quite obvious it didn't leave Vader with deep 'scars', which in fact is more accurately described as deep wrinkles rather than wear due to injurries. I suppose the lightning caused his voice and eyes to change, since his appearance always included both afterwards despite being nearly unrelated to injuries (he used the voice previously and Vader had the eyes as well).

And why was he able to immediately able to fight back and stand once it was convenient? Why base an argument chiefly on Sidious' claim? He claimed a lot of bullshit to get the reactions he was looking for. There's also no reason to assume he dropped his disguise whenever we saw Sidious before that point; he likely needed to keep himself hidden through the Force to avoid being detected. Once the Jedi knew who he was there wasn't a need to keep it up any longer.

[Perinquus]

Sorry folks, but the novelizations are canon. What they say goes unless contradicted by higher canon (i.e. the movies). If the novel says he was disfigured by the lightning, and nothing in the movie contradicts this, then he was disfigured by the lightning. Deal with it. As far as I can see, nothing in the movie contradicts this. And indeed, it's far more plausible that he was disfigured than that his disguise dropped. After all, if his disguise dropped, what the fuck was there to prevent him from re-assuming it after Mace was dead? We know he didn't become less powerful, and we know that he was not permanently crippled by Mace in any way. So if he was able to maintain a disguise prior ot his battle with Mace Windu, what made him unable to maintain it after? If he was disfigured, on the other hand, that explains very well why his appearance was permanently altered.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

After all, if his disguise dropped, what the fuck was there to prevent him from re-assuming it after Mace was dead?

Because it's a nice, visible, potent reminder of the "Jedi Treason". Palpatine doesn't seem to be the type to sacrifice a political tool for personal vanity.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Everything with how it happened in the film contradicts with the presetation within the novelisation. In the film it was literally like a transition rather than a progressing injury. Stover is just full of shit. I find any sort of evidence for it being an injury to be utterly unconvincing, while it being a disquise to be on the level.

It's inconsistant that such an injury occur when delivering Force Lightning at such a weak level that not even bone illumination occurs, let alone the injury occurring at all in the first place: that's never been seen either.

[Utsanomiko]

Even if the lightning wasn't illuminating his bones simply due to only passing over his skin and not through his body (as I'm sure someone would suggest that), it was clearly not strong enough to cause burns and the smoke present was minimal. He was clearly in good enough shape to get right back up after merely catching his breath and act like he lacked any notable injurries.

They're not 'scars' just because some text describes them as such.

[Jack Bauer]

After all, if his disguise dropped, what the fuck was there to prevent him from re-assuming it after Mace was dead?

Because it's a nice, visible, potent reminder of the "Jedi Treason". Palpatine doesn't seem to be the type to sacrifice a political tool for personal vanity.

Exactly.

[HemlockGrey]

Plus, his "injuries" are almost symmetrical.

i.e he didnt 'throw' the fight with Windu)

Oh, for fuck's sake. Would you provide ANY evidence to back up this idiotic theory?

[18-Till-I-Die]

Plus, his "injuries" are almost symmetrical.

i.e he didnt 'throw' the fight with Windu)

Oh, for fuck's sake. Would you provide ANY evidence to back up this idiotic theory?

Is there any eveidence he DID? From what i know, the only argument is that it was too convenient that Anakin showed up just in time. Well...maybe it IS, just a happy (for Palpatine) coincidence.

I dont know, i dont think he would throw a fight if he could win. I mostly tend to accept the movies on face value, what we see is what actually happened.

Of course i could be wrong, but there is no evidence for him throwing a fight that i've seen besides claims that it was 'too convenient'.

[Perinquus]

Everything with how it happened in the film contradicts with the presetation within the novelisation. In the film it was literally like a transition rather than a progressing injury. Stover is just full of shit. I find any sort of evidence for it being an injury to be utterly unconvincing, while it being a disquise to be on the level.

Sorry, nothing about it contradicts that. And I remind you that Lucas' policy is that unless it is contradicted by higher canon, it's accurate.

It's inconsistant that such an injury occur when delivering Force Lightning at such a weak level that not even bone illumination occurs, let alone the injury occurring at all in the first place: that's never been seen either.

Oh for fuck's sake, Mace was glowing incandascent purple. Even Vader didn't light up that brightly. His bones were glowing. It's just that the rest of him was glowing just as brightly.

And as for the idea that Palpatine somehow needed some sort of visible reminder that the Jedi betrayed him... why? He had the majority of the senate firmly in his pocket. If they can stand there and applaud as he declares a despotism, I doubt that little detail would have made the slightest bit of difference. And furthermore, when his policies start to become more and more autocratic and tyrannous, as they did, a monstrous appearance would be a tremendous political disadvantage, and a permanent one at that, whereas whatever benefit he got from it at the start would be purely temporary.

It's canon folks. Get over it.

[HemlockGrey]

Is there any eveidence he DID? From what i know, the only argument is that it was too convenient that Anakin showed up just in time. Well...maybe it IS, just a happy (for Palpatine) coincidence.

Well, let's see...Palpatine fought Yoda, a much more powerful Jedi, to a draw. He was going even against Mace until just before Anakin showed up. His UNLIMITED POWER lightning attack showed that he could still have held off Mace if Mace had attempted to kill him, he showed no sign of fatigue or weakness after the battle, and he needed a decisive moment to turn Anakin completely to the Dark Side.

I'd say it's a safe bet he threw the fight.

[Robert Walper]

The arguement that other victims of Force lightening didn't get disfigured fails to take into account they were able to focus their full Force abilities on trying to survive the lightening attack. Palpatine on the other hand was creating it, which argueably takes most of his concentration and ability into play. He could have easily been unable to stop the full effects of the damaging energy since his efforts were focused on creating it in the first place.

[SCRawl]

The arguement that other victims of Force lightening didn't get disfigured fails to take into account they were able to focus their full Force abilities on trying to survive the lightening attack. Palpatine on the other hand was creating it, which argueably takes most of his concentration and ability into play. He could have easily been unable to stop the full effects of the damaging energy since his efforts were focused on creating it in the first place.

Palpatine's creating the lightning, though, was the only thing keeping Windu from bringing his sabre down into Palpatine's thorax.

For my $0.02, it does seem to me that Palpy's new face is indeed his real face. All those years of channelling the Dark Side can do that to a guy. (I figure that Palpy was rather older than he looked, but that's just speculation.) What was destroyed was his disguise, which he'd been employing for a couple of decades or so. Post-Windu fight, there was no need to keep up the disguise, so he let it be. All the ducks were in a row to control the galaxy, so he didn't need to fool anyone anymore.

I don't insist that I'm right, though, that's why it's called a theory.

[Perseid]

Palpatines face after the fight with Windu is due to disfigurment from dark side corruption, not the force lightning. Besides surely if a Jedi Master like Yoda can deflect the force lightning then someone who can summon such a force power can either take almost a full force attack with little effect at all to their own physical body, or even dispell the effect before it does them any harm

[Robert Walper]

I'll repeat: Palpatine was creating the Force lightening, and I'm sure we're in agreement that he was putting a lot of effort into it. I think it's a No Limits Fallacy to suggest he could create such energies and also protect himself from those same energies being turned back into him (I don't think he was expecting it either).

Other Force users we've seen hit by Force lightening (at longer range, lesser intensity and shorter time frames) didn't have the disadvantage of having their Force powers focused on creating the lightening in the first place.

[Stravo]

While I will go with what we see on screen - Palpy was deformed by lightning as Devil's Advocate can we not argue that the Foce lightning attack from Palpy is the most Dark side expenditure we've seen from Palpy in the prequels and as such he channels such "UNLIMITED POWER" that it destroys his Force disguise or fucks his body up in some way?

Look at Anakin, he is exhibiting the yellow eyes and his face as all puffy and twisted at the end of the duel suggesting perhaps that channeling so much darkside energy in such a short amount of time does soemthing to you physically.

It woud explain the twisted and decrepit Emperor we see in ROTJ and some early drafts of ANH I think suggested that Tarkin was also doing some darkside training hence his own sort of wizened features.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Tarkin looked the way he did because he was an old man.

can we not argue that the Foce lightning attack from Palpy is the most Dark side expenditure we've seen from Palpy in the prequels and as such he channels such "UNLIMITED POWER" that it destroys his Force disguise or fucks his body up in some way?

That is part of what they are arguing for and we are arguing against: it being a physical deformation of a sort due to injury or expence rather than the deterioration of a Force-related disquise. It being an injury just doesn't make sense and is simply not realistic.

Look at Anakin, he is exhibiting the yellow eyes and his face as all puffy and twisted at the end of the duel suggesting perhaps that channeling so much darkside energy in such a short amount of time does soemthing to you physically.

Anakin didn't look at all puffy or deformed beyond the fact that he had been/was crying in that scene.

I'm sticking to my guns. You'd probably have to force me a gunpoint to change my mind, frankly.

And before someone mentions that Palpatine's hands are normal in that scene: for one, that doesn't prove anything either way. Besides, it seems more like a genuine make-up gaffe for that scene, because his hands ARE pale and shrivled later on in the film.

[Kartr_Kana]

Just something I noticed, Palpys face is horrible disfigured right after the "assination attempt", but as the movie progressed it seemed to "heal", to smooth out until it was somewhere between the pre-assination and what it was right after it. I personally support the doppleganger theory, because in novels set during the OT they mention how Palpentine was twisted and aged by the darkside. If the darkside twist(i.e. disfigures) a person and ages them beyond normal rates that would be a red flag to anyone who had reason to hate the Sith, so why shouldn't our beloved chancellor disguise him self physically when he is already hiding himself from the jedi ablity to sense people and there emotions, in essence disguising his force attunment and alignment. Could Stover have ment "scaring" in a figurative manner, you know like when someone is "scard for life" kind of thing? Mace was not as powerful as Yoda, but form 7 allowed him to use the darkside thrown at him to fuel his attacks, and Palpy feeding of the darkside released by maces use of form 7 strengthend him, so the feed off each other the stronger one became the stronger the other became. It took Anakin to break the cycle and finish the battle.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Just something I noticed, Palpys face is horrible disfigured right after the "assination attempt", but as the movie progressed it seemed to "heal", to smooth out until it was somewhere between the pre-assination and what it was right after it.

I think that was more of a case of variations in lighting than any healing of a sort going on.

Could Stover have ment "scaring" in a figurative manner, you know like when someone is "scard for life" kind of thing?

Stover wrote the scene in the book as if Palpatine was literally getting injured, with his skin melting and bone structure fusing into twisted forms precisely due to the lightning, which is patently absurd.

[Crown]

Okay a couple of points;

1. Force Lightning is a corruption of the Force that drains the life out of its victim. Given that it was his own Force Lightning hitting him back it is more than plausible that the thing was in a constant feed-back loop, which is why we get the deformation.
2. Maul was in his mid-20's and had been a Sith for the bulk of his life, did he look anything but a fucking fit death machine ready to kick ass and take names to anybody else?
3. I find it fucking funny that people are arguing 'it's not realistic' that his own Force Lightning disfigured him, but at the same time aren't up in arms over the fact that other people get their X-Ray's done at the same time when being hit by Force Lightning.
4. It's in the novel, if it isn't contradicted explicitly by the movie, deal with it.
5. The script says the following; 'MACE pushes PALPATINE out to the edge of the ledge. As the Jedi moves closer, the bolts from Palpatine's hands begin to arch back on him. The Chancellor's face begins to twist and distort. His eyes become yellow as he struggles to intensify his powers.' So it's of no help to either side, which leaves us with point number 4.

Make of that what you will.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Point number four is contradicted in its difference in execution and presentation.

[Crown]

Point number four is contradicted in its difference in execution and presentation.

As Vympel pointed out to me (about the ANH novelisation and its take on the duel), you can't throw it out entirely unless it's a direct contradiction. For example do both the novel and movie agree that it was Palpy's own Force lightning hitting him back? If so, then what the novel discribes as happening to Palpy at that moment stands.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I agree on that, but the novelisation is still wrong concerning the point and reason for Palpatine's change in appearence.

Additionally there is the fact that both Maul and Sideous have yellow eyes constantly, and Vader had yellow eyes some of the time. This plus Palpatine's form seems to show that he is much deeper in the Dark Side than Maul. It's been mentioned in the EU at various times that Palpatine was essentially the most poweful Force user alive at the time, and perhaps one of the most powerful among those known to live (certainly evident from WEG's old character stats: Palpatine is the most powerful of any era).