Darth Maul?

[Kaintukee_Bob]

Maul *would* have accepted 'demotion' to Emporer's Hand, or as Palpatine would have put it 'taken a new position where [Darth Maul's] talents could be put to better use. A position where you answer only to ME, and where you can finally get revenge on the Jedi' (or something like that, remember, Palpatine was a *very* skilled politician and spin doctor), and here's why:

A creature of pure evil, Maul had no personality beyond his ultimate devotion to his master, Darth Sidious.

If ordered to, he'd have accepted it, even as a demotion.

Palpatine is nothing if not a patient man, willing to invest the time needed into each stage of his master plan.

Yes, Palpatine is patient. But he's also smart enough not to needlessly throw away an asset such as Maul. Maul was, if nothing else, a match for most Jedi. He would have made a valuable asset to the Seperatists in battle, and a usefull weapon against any Jedi who escaped the purge.

Had he resisted being supplanted as Sideous' apprentice, I have no doubt the Tyranus/Maul fight would have happened, and (assuming both were at their peak and no outside interference) Tyranus would have won.

[The attempted arrest of the Seperatist Leader would have] succeeded, unless you think some generic evil banker from the Trade Federation (or for that matter, his bodyguard Maul) was going to fight his way past Anakin, Obi-Wan, and Yoda.

With the additional training he would have recieved in the intervening years, I hold that Maul could have defeated (and possibly killed) Anakin and Obi-Wan, though Yoda would have handed him his ass without question.

But what makes you think Sideous would have placed 'some generic banker' as the figurehead? He could have found an effective leader somewhere in the galaxy, or even still recruited Dooku (with or without Sith training, he would have been an effective leader)

Dooku left the Jedi Order not because of Sideous, but for his own reasons, as seen in the StarWars.com database: "After his departure from the Jedi order, Dooku was seduced to the dark side by Darth Sidious, the Dark Lord of the Sith." It's been noted that you don't have to be Sith to be Dark Side. Palpatine could have still tried to convince Dooku to lead the Seperatists.

Had this suceeded (as it did in the movies), Dooku would have led the Seperatists (possibly with Maul, probably without). On the off chance he did let Sideous send him a bodyguard, it is probable that Dooku would have sacraficed Maul to Obi-Wan and Anakin in order to escape, leading to his death by the hands of one of the three who would otherwise have fought Dooku.

Anyway, I will answer the next point (assuming for the moment Sideous was unable to convince Dooku to lead the Seperatists)

Having his leadership figure arrested at the opening of the war would not have been helpful to Sidious.

True, but had this leadership figure accepted Maul as a bodyguard, it is conceivable Maul would have slowed Obi-Wan and Anakin down long enough to allow the leadership figure to escape. Maul would still lose, owing to either Anakin's skill or Yoda's...Yoda-ness, but the leadership figure would not necessarily have been caught.

I hold my previous position: Maul's death was not originally in Sideous' plan. Sideous was forced to alter his plans (or fall back onto a back-up plan) in response to it. This may (or may not) have changed the outcome, but it did change the plan (though I don't pretend to know if it was for better or worse).

Just an off-topic side note: I have not debated (even one so informal as this) before...one of the reasons I joined here was to learn and practice debate tactics. I do not believe I have made any logical fallicies or used any bad debate tactics thusfar (or if I have, I apologize), but if I do, please let me know?

[LordShaithis]

I don't buy this. You can't just de-Sithify a Sith. Even if you could, no Sith worth a shit would accept it. And even those things aside, it's just plain not the way Palpy does business. Grooming a new apprentice while the old one still lives, then cacking the old one, is Palpatine's SOP.

[Kaintukee_Bob]

"You can't just de-Sithify a Sith."

Unless your name is Luke, but that's beside the point. I've given canon evidence why it would be possible, and why Maul would have accepted it. You just ignore this. I'm pretty sure that's a debate fallacy, isn't it? Maul would have accepted it, or could have been convinced to accept it by Palpatine.

As for grooming a new apprentice while the old one still lives, we don't know that's always the way he does it. We don't know when he started corrupting Dooku. He may have begun before or after Maul's death. We don't know anything about any pre-Maul apprentice. We saw no evidence of an apprentice to replace Vader. The only thing we know is that Palpy planned to replace Dooku with Anakin. So, we have 2 indeterminate (pre-Maul apprentice, if any, and Maul/Tyranus timing), 1 grooming for replacement (Tyranus/Vader), and 1 where there was no grooming of a replacement.

Reasoning for 1 'no grooming': Vader was Sideous' apprentice for decades. Never did we hear any mention of a potential replacement (other than Luke, whom Vader *suggested* as a second apprentice). In the EU there has been no mention by anyone, ever (not even Palpy's clones or Hands) of an apprentice-in-the-works.

Just because Palpatine groomed Anakin (potentially the most powerful jedi ever, judging my his medichlorian count) to replace Dooku (who I can't recall ever doing anything truly Sith-like, though I may be wrong), does not imply that he *always* grooms a replacement for his apprentice.

[Jack Bauer]

Maul and Tyranus were all just pawns. Palpatine merely used them as tools to advance his agenda. And they all served him ably in that regard. Whether Sidious knew about Anakin years before is up to debate. Regardless though, the relative powers of Maul and Tyranus are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

[Sam Or I]

They were all just Pawns, including Anakin. Did Anakin really matter in the Palps Plans? NO, he could have done the things he did with any Sith Lord.

[LordShaithis]

Unless your name is Luke, but that's beside the point. I've given canon evidence why it would be possible, and why Maul would have accepted it.

Bullshit. You pulled it completely out of your fucking ass. What the hell is Sidious going to do? "I'm sorry Lord Maul, but someone better has come along. Please turn in your lightsaber and try to forget any Sith stuff I taught you. Oh, and since you can't be called Darth anymore, your new first name is... Jerry. And Jerry Maul, you're an Emperor's Hand now. Don't worry, the title will make sense in a few years." What a crock of shit.

You just ignore this. I'm pretty sure that's a debate fallacy, isn't it?

No, it's me ignoring stupid shit. Yeah folks, this is how the Sith order determines succession! Quiet peaceful transfer of power!

As for grooming a new apprentice while the old one still lives, we don't know that's always the way he does it.

It's what he's done in every observed instance except this one. And even you admit that in this instance, Dooku is the superior subject. All you're arguing is your subjective, out of character, totally pulled out of thin air notion that Palpatine would have demoted a full Sith Lord to some bullshit EU position that wasn't invented until years later anyway. Because gee, it took time to train him and all.

We don't know when he started corrupting Dooku. He may have begun before or after Maul's death.

Hence this thread.

We don't know anything about any pre-Maul apprentice.

Then why are you bringing it up at all?

We saw no evidence of an apprentice to replace Vader.

LUKE FUCKING SKYWALKER, anyone?

The only thing we know is that Palpy planned to replace Dooku with Anakin. So, we have 2 indeterminate (pre-Maul apprentice, if any, and Maul/Tyranus timing), 1 grooming for replacement (Tyranus/Vader), and 1 where there was no grooming of a replacement.

Except that apprentices we've never seen or heard of don't count, and you've somehow FORGOTTEN that Sidious wanted Luke to take his father's place. So really we have the subject of this thread as up for debate, while every other instance goes the way I describe.

Reasoning for 1 'no grooming': Vader was Sideous' apprentice for decades. Never did we hear any mention of a potential replacement (other than Luke, whom Vader *suggested* as a second apprentice).

Jesus fuck. Go watch ROTJ again. The Emperor straight-up TELLS Luke to KILL Vader, and take his place.

[McNum]

Personally I think Maul would still have been Sidious' apprentice by RotS. Not that Dooku wouldn't have been the figureead of the seperatists, he didn't need a Darth title for that. I wouldn't see it past Palpatine to be able to manipulate even a former Jedi Master into doing that.

Maul would still be in it, though. Not at where Dooku was, but where General Grievous was. You'd have the manipulated Dooku as the figure head and repacing mr. cyborg flurry of lightsabers would be mr. zabrak flurry of lightsabers.

Grievous was the backup plan, but for a backup plan he was still pretty powerful.