Who should have won at Endor?

Grandmaster Jogurt · Post by **Grandmaster Jogurt** » 2005-05-26 05:24pm

xcr wrote:As I recall, the stun blast (in ANH) is an expanding circle... not sure how one could deflect that with a saber.

Doesn't it converge into a single point on Leia?

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2005-05-26 05:36pm

The Original Nex wrote:
SancheztheWhaler wrote:There are a lot of "if's" in this thread. I'll assume that the ground battle goes against the Rebellion, the space battle proceeds as it did (rebellion destroys Executor, etc.), and Vader turns on the Emperor and then dies.
The Executor probably wouldn't have been destroyed if the ground battle had gone the Empire's way. Ackbar only ordered the assault on the Executor to "give those fighters more time" after the shield had been taken down. In this scenario, once it became clear that the shield would not be deactivated, Ackbar would have ordered a retreat, which would have been hindered by the ImpFleet itself, after all, that's what the fleet was there for: "We only need to keep them from escaping". This implies that should the Rebels attempt to flee, the Imperial Fleet should open fire and destroy them (not simply try and hold them off as they did when the Rebels came in to point blank range). The Emperor's plan would have been executed perfectly, with the exception that niether he, nor Lord Vader would survive.

How long does Luke have to either a) escape,

This is his best bet, since he'll, presumably, still be dragging Vader with him (that's probably how he got past everyone in RotJ, no one questioned him because he had Vader in tow)

b) lower the shield,
He'd have to be on Endor to do that.

or c) use the DS2 against the Imperials?
It's clear from ANH and RotJ that it takes multiple people to fire the Death Star. Luke couldn't do it on his own even if he knew how.

Luke would do whatever he could to help the rebellion, including using DS2 against the Imperial fleet, or possibly destroying it himself, once Palpatine was dead. I suspect it would be easier for him to sabotage DS2's power plant than for him to take control of its superlaser. I don't know how he would lower the shield, as that was the whole point of the mission to Endor's surface, and escape is somewhat pointless, as the Empire would then still have a Death Star.

My only question is "how would he be able to sabotage it?"

He'd have to instantly come up with a plan and somehow execute it before the Rebel Fleet was utterly destroyed. The Rebel assault was planned for weeks and still very nearly failed. Having Vader with him wouldn't help for something like this. Vader wouldn't survive long enough to be of any sort of free pass through the station, let alone be able to help destroy the station (it's likely Vader wouldn't have helped Luke destroy it anyways). The odds against Luke are even greater than those against the Rebel operation as a whole.

I don't have the book here with me, but if I recall the movie correctly, after the Death Star began lighting up Rebellion cruisers Akbar ordered the fleet to engage the Star Destroyers at "point blank range." The shield still wasn't down, and Lando commented something to the effect of needing to give the guys on the surface more time (to lower the shield), and the Rebellion lasting longer against the "Super Star Destroyer" than they would against "that Death Star." The shield was taken down during the battle, and shortly thereafter the Executor took her death plunge.

Assuming the shield still wasn't down, why wouldn't the Executor have been taken out? It would have simply collided with the Death Star's shieds instead of impacting on the surface.

It's all a moot point, in any case, because unless the shield goes down or Luke destroys the Death Star from within, the Rebellion is lost.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2005-05-26 05:52pm

SancheztheWhaler wrote:I don't have the book here with me, but if I recall the movie correctly, after the Death Star began lighting up Rebellion cruisers Akbar ordered the fleet to engage the Star Destroyers at "point blank range." The shield still wasn't down, and Lando commented something to the effect of needing to give the guys on the surface more time (to lower the shield), and the Rebellion lasting longer against the "Super Star Destroyer" than they would against "that Death Star." The shield was taken down during the battle, and shortly thereafter the Executor took her death plunge.

The actual quote is "those Star Destroyers" vs "that Death Star," but the same meaning is retained.

In fact, the Executor probably lasted longer because the shield dropped, as the rest of the Rebellion's fighters were then engaged in a different mission from attacking the Star Destroyers.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2005-05-26 05:52pm

SancheztheWhaler wrote:
I don't have the book here with me, but if I recall the movie correctly, after the Death Star began lighting up Rebellion cruisers Akbar ordered the fleet to engage the Star Destroyers at "point blank range."
Yes that's right.

The shield still wasn't down, and Lando commented something to the effect of needing to give the guys on the surface more time (to lower the shield), and the Rebellion lasting longer against the "Super Star Destroyer" than they would against "that Death Star."
He says this before Ackbar the battle progresses to Point-Blank:

The Death Star has just destroyed the Liberty.

Lando: Home One this is Gold Leader

Ackbar: We saw it. All craft prepare a retreat.

Lando: We won't get another chance at this Admiral.

Acbar: We have no choice General Calrissian! Our cruisers can't repel firepower of that magnitude!

Lando: Han will have that shield down we gotta give him more time!

End sequence
Later this repore is exchanged:

Lando: Yes I said closer! Move as close as you can and engage those Star Destroyers at point-blank range!

Ackbar: At that close range we won't last long against those Star Destroyers.

Lando: We'll last longer than we will against that Death Star! And we might just take a few of them with us!

End Sequence

There is no mention of Executor specifically in that discussion. Only about the Imperial Fleet in general.

Ackbar doesn't mention the Executor specifically until after the shield is taken down and fighters swarm the Death Star's interior:

Ackbar: We've got to give those fighters more time. [To Fleet] Concentrate all your fire on that Super Star Destroyer!

The shield was taken down during the battle, and shortly thereafter the Executor took her death plunge.
She wasn't directly attacked until after the shield was taken down and the whole Rebel Fleet swarmed her.

Assuming the shield still wasn't down, why wouldn't the Executor have been taken out? It would have simply collided with the Death Star's shieds instead of impacting on the surface.
There's not reason to believe Ackbar would have ordered the whole Fleet to attack the Executor if the shield had never been taken down.

It's all a moot point, in any case, because unless the shield goes down or Luke destroys the Death Star from within, the Rebellion is lost.

Indeed.

Cykeisme · Post by **Cykeisme** » 2005-05-26 06:34pm

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:
xcr wrote:As I recall, the stun blast (in ANH) is an expanding circle... not sure how one could deflect that with a saber.
Doesn't it converge into a single point on Leia?

Rawr.
Read my post on the first page of the thread.
It never expanded. It only appeared to be getting larger from the camera's perspective, because it was moving directly toward the camera's point of view.
When the view cuts to another angle, you see the ring as it was all along: with a diameter no larger than the caliber of the blaster's muzzle.

Btw, didn't Lando have the Rebel ships move right into the midst of the Imperial fleet so that the Death Star wouldn't be able to fire its superlaser without also damaging or destroying Imperial ships?

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-05-26 08:48pm

Since when did the Empire care about its own ships?

And no, the stun beam gets wider, it does not concentrate on a single point

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2005-05-26 09:15pm

Trooper TK12746 wrote:Since when did the Empire care about its own ships?

Since they became big and expensive and pivotal to winning a battle, methinks.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-05-27 05:47pm

Not even then, they threw around ISDs like nothing and they shrugged off the death of the 1st death star. DV even arranged for some ISDs to be destroyed to kill off a rival admiral

Jason von Evil · Post by **Jason von Evil** » 2005-05-27 05:52pm

Uh guys, keep in minding that IG-88A had taken control of the DSII and was just waiting to start a droid revolution. So, if the DSII wasn't destroyed, then the Empire has a very big problem on its hands.

Really, if the Executor wasn't destroyed, the Imperials probably would have won, even if the Death Star was destroyed. The problem was, after the Executor was destroyed, the Chimaera was supposed to take command of the fleet, but her Captain had been killed and the DSII was destroyed after that. It was total chaos. Pallaeon (who assumed control of the Chimaera) had no choice but to order a retreat.

Trooper TK12746 · Post by **Trooper TK12746** » 2005-05-28 07:12pm

Ahh, but if the DSII were still theree, no Imperial in his right mind would order a surrender, because Moff Jejjorad was still alive (or plapatine) and could take command of the battle. Who would retreat with the DSII on their side? Especially against a bunch of refitted luxery liners and obsolete transports.
And I don't think that the IG-88 thing counts given other discrepancies in that story. And I never bought the fake stormie thing. Wouldn't DV notice that they were droids? Or palpy would realize somethings wrong?

Wong, is the IG-88 story from Tales of the Bounty Hunters canon?

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-05-28 07:17pm

Considering that "what if" situations are rarely considered in the EU outside of the Infinities label, I never had a problem with the IG-88 story. If you want to go into what would have happened at Endor if -insert random thing- you can always just for the sake of the arguement say that IG miscalculated when he downloaded himself and overloaded when he tried to seize the Death Star or something like that. No biggie.