OSC whining about 'moral relativism' in ROTS

PSW: discuss Star Wars without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

dworkin
Jedi Master
Posts: 1313
Joined: 2003-08-06 05:44am
Location: Whangaparoa, one babe, same sun and surf.

OSC whining about 'moral relativism' in ROTS

Post by dworkin »

Duh! It's a fictional movie.
Memo to would-be Jedis: in the new movie, the knights are elitist, dictatorial, and unconvinced that good is an absolute.
Star Wars fans are legendary for their loyalty. I saw plenty of that in the 9:45 p.m. showing of Revenge of the Sith on its opening day. They had waited in line to get tickets to the very first showing at midnight the night before, and then saw it twice more before the opening day was over.
Many had obviously memorized all the howlingly bad lines. They began laughing out loud just before the line was said, and applauded at the wretched “emotional” moments in the movie.

But then, walking out of the theater, they fiercely defended the movie against anyone who dared to speak against it. It might be badly written, but it’s their badly written movie.

Some fans are so loyal they have even adopted “Jedi” as their official religion on census reports and The Force as their equivalent of a “personal savior.”
Grumpy because no-one shows this enthusiasm for his series
In a way, this is kind of bittersweet. It shows that the universal hunger for meaning is still prevalent, even in our agnostic era, which is encouraging; but these true believers will eventually realize that the philosophy behind Star Wars is every bit as sophisticated as the science — in other words, mostly wrong and always silly.

It’s one thing to put your faith in a religion founded by a real person who claimed divine revelation, but it’s something else entirely to have, as the scripture of your religion, a storyline that you know was made up by a very nonprophetic human being.
Most people who put 'Jedi' on their census forms are fans (a phenomenon Card is clearly unfamiliar with) or don't like census forms and are 'putting it to the man' in a nerdy way.
How Does the Force Stack Up As a Religion?
Given that it won't involve the AA Moroni, kinda average.
As a religion, the Force is just the sort of thing you’d expect a liberal-minded teenage kid to invent. There’s no God and there are no rules other than a vague insistence on unselfishness and oath-keeping. Power comes from the sum of all life in the universe, and it is manichaean, not Christian — evil is simply another way of using the Force. Only not as nice.

Good and evil are in a constant and nearly equipoised tug-of-war in the Star Wars series. But in the more recent movies, it seems that the goal of good people is not to wipe out evil, but rather for there to be a balance between the Light and Dark sides of the Force.

The new movie itself asserts a kind of equivalence. When the evil Palpatine says, “Good is a point of view--the Sith and the Jedi are almost the same,” we can dismiss this moral relativism as part of the deception of the dark side.

But in a pivotal scene, Obi-Wan says what amounts to the same thing: “Only a Sith deals in absolutes.”

Isn’t that odd? The only thing both sides agree on is that people who believe in absolute good and evil are bad!
OSC obviously wanted both preaching from the Holy Bible or Book of Mormon.
I suspect that Lucas realized, after writing "Good is a point of view," that all his friends actually believed that. So he had to make it clear that moral relativism was the right way after all—so he had Obi-Wan say that absolutism was a Sith thing, even though in the actual story, the best of the Jedis show an unbending commitment to absolute Good.

It’s a terrible thing, I suppose, for a writer to invent a religion and then discover that he and all his friends are on the wrong side of it.
Revenge of the Sith gives us our first chance to see the Jedi council as anything more than an incredibly boring business conference that we were forced to attend between action scenes. Not as if the Jedi masters discussed ideas — it was still a business meeting, in which they told each other obvious things and then made decisions by a sort of instant consensus that is never achieved in the real world except in really scary dictatorships. Clearly they were modeled after an adolescent view of the Knights of the Round Table.

But they aren’t a political or military group, despite the talk of government, of war and peace. They are also monks of a martial order, who have trained each other and who live under a strict religious discipline.

The Jedi may claim to be in favor of democracy, but in fact they function as a ruling elite, making their decisions among themselves. They occasionally submit to the authority of the legislature, and they seem to respect the rule of law, though whose law it’s hard to say. By and large, however, they decide among themselves what they’re going to do and when it’s OK to break the law and defy the civilian authority.

They are, in fact, utterly anti-democratic, like a militia that owes nothing to civilian authority. Eventually there’s going to be a coup.

And even though they train like crazy to learn to master their power, none of their discussions as a council are devoted to considering what is right and wrong. They simply know the rules and, except for those being tempted by the Dark Side, they never question them.

They have way too much power.

There are other ways that the actual story subverts the official “religion” of the Force. Take the idea that you become a Jedi by training. Well, sure — but you are only chosen to train for the Jedity if you have some kind of inborn power.

You can dedicate your life to serving the Force if you want, but you can’t become a Jedi warrior-priest unless you were born with the power and anointed as some Jedi’s apprentice.

In other words, they may seem very inclusive—one Jedi from every species (except for humans, who are way overrepresented)—but in fact they’re a self-perpetuating aristocracy.

Who Are the Bad Guys?

So instead of looking at the storyline of Episode III as a conflict between good and evil, you could read it as a conflict between the entrenched aristocracy trying to preserve their monopoly on power, and an ambitious upstart, who is determined to break that monopoly and take control for himself. The only reason we don’t see it that way is because the other side is so much more evil. But the body count left behind by Jedi knights is — or should be — disturbing.
In other words, despite whatever political message Lucas might or might not have intended, the Jedi are the smug orthodoxy, always congratulating themselves on their rectitude. No wonder the whole senate seems thrilled when the new Emperor announces the fall of the Jedi. They don’t know yet how evil the Emperor will be, but they know they don’t mind having the meddlesome Jedi out of the way.

A Conservative Religion

The overt religion of Revenge of the Sith is a kind of democratic pantheism, but the real religion is for the privileged few, who get to decide what’s best for everybody else and then enforce their own rules, all in the name of “the Force.”

How did a nice Protestant boy like George Lucas come up with an official religion more rigidly hierarchical and doctrinally uniform than Catholicism?

It’s the religion of the people who are Chosen, and you aren’t ready to have a share of the power until we say you are. Quite the opposite of, say, the Quakers or even the Puritans, who eschewed permanent religious hierarchies.

Even the afterlife is reserved for the few, the proud, the Jedi. As we learned at the end of Return of the Jedi, even the most dark-side-serving of ex-Jedi mass murderers can, with a single “good” act like refusing to murder his own son (which even the most evil men generally avoid), earn the right to eternal life as the equal of true saints like Yoda and Obi-Wan.

But not one of the others who died in the war against the evil Sith emperor was similarly granted a life after death—or at least, if they were, they apparently weren’t allowed on camera at the end of Return of the Jedi. Maybe the non-Jedi had to stay in their own segregated section of rock-'n-roll heaven.

No! That’s not fair! The Jedi devote their whole life to the service of others!

But they’re not chosen on the basis of their virtue—for all we know, there are millions of people more virtuous and unselfish than they. And since they alone get to determine what “the good of others” actually consists of (though it does seem to include a lot of killing), how are the Jedi distinguishable from any number of other dictatorial groups that justify their actions by claiming that they do it all for the little guy?

So it might not be such a good thing if the Star Wars films become the first movies to lead to a real-world religion.

Of course, all this quibbling would be moot if, in fact, the Jedi religion actually worked—if people could tap into the Force and do the miracles that the Jedi routinely perform.

But it doesn’t work. No matter how intensely you believe, you can’t leap tall buildings with a single bound or drive a car with your eyes closed.

So if a religion is known to be fictional, trains its exclusive practitioners to be killing machines, and doesn’t actually work in the real world, why do people call themselves Jedi?

As a protest against religion in general?

As a yearning for power?

Or as a dream of a world in which virtue, however it’s defined, can actually do something tangible against the evil in the universe?
Franky, a mormon commenting on the internal self consistency of another fictional religion is kinda funny.
Don't abandon democracy folks, or an alien star-god may replace your ruler. - NecronLord
User avatar
Grand Admiral Thrawn
Ruthless Imperial Tyrant
Posts: 5755
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:11pm
Location: Canada

Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

OSC=the author of the completely overrated Ender's Game? I guess he's pissed no one gave a shit about what he said about Star Trek so he's switching targets.
"You know, I was God once."
"Yes, I saw. You were doing well, until everyone died."
Bender and God, Futurama
User avatar
Cykeisme
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2416
Joined: 2004-12-25 01:47pm
Contact:

Post by Cykeisme »

I'm sorry, but who's the OSC chap? Are they initials for a name?

And what's "Ender's Game"? I'm not very well-versed with sci-fi..
"..history has shown the best defense against heavy cavalry are pikemen, so aircraft should mount lances on their noses and fly in tight squares to fend off bombers". - RedImperator

"ha ha, raping puppies is FUN!" - Johonebesus

"It would just be Unicron with pew pew instead of nom nom". - Vendetta, explaining his justified disinterest in the idea of the movie Allspark affecting the Death Star
User avatar
Imperial Overlord
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11978
Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
Location: The Tower at Charm

Post by Imperial Overlord »

Orson Scott Card, a science fiction writer who likes to tell others how they should write science fiction.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
User avatar
Spanky The Dolphin
Mammy Two-Shoes
Posts: 30776
Joined: 2002-07-05 05:45pm
Location: Reykjavík, Iceland (not really)

Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Someone needs to punch Card in the face with the fact that "Jedi" is fucking both singular and plural...
Image
I believe in a sign of Zeta.

[BOTM|WG|JL|Mecha Maniacs|Pax Cybertronia|Veteran of the Psychic Wars|Eva Expert]

"And besides, who cares if a monster destroys Australia?"
User avatar
Guardsman Bass
Cowardly Codfish
Posts: 9281
Joined: 2002-07-07 12:01am
Location: Beneath the Deepest Sea

Post by Guardsman Bass »

The first lightsaber model/similar device should be used to remove Card's tongue. He's getting annoying; he must have run out of ideas on how to extend his Hegemon story arc in the Ender Universe.
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.”
-Jean-Luc Picard


"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
-Margaret Atwood
User avatar
Drunk Monkey
Padawan Learner
Posts: 416
Joined: 2005-05-20 12:55pm
Location: Like i'm going to tell you!

Post by Drunk Monkey »

How the hell can he compare the Jedi to the catholic church, I mean the Jedi try to serve the people the church wants to control them. :roll:
User avatar
Superman
Pink Foamin' at the Mouth
Posts: 9690
Joined: 2002-12-16 12:29am
Location: Metropolis

Post by Superman »

Like I've always said, he's a mediocre writer at best and I don't know why anyone would pay attention to his stupid opinions. Someone should tell him to shut the fuck up.
Image
User avatar
Admiral Drason
Jedi Knight
Posts: 768
Joined: 2002-09-04 05:43pm
Location: In my bomb shelter

Post by Admiral Drason »

Thank you OCS. Thank you for telling me that I can't leap tall buildings and that the Force isnt real. I'm a changed man now. I think I am going to go read the book of mormon now.
A truly wise man never plays leapfrog with a unicorn
So Say We All
Night Stalkers Don't Quit
HAB member
RIP Pegasus. You died like you lived, killing toasters
User avatar
Superman
Pink Foamin' at the Mouth
Posts: 9690
Joined: 2002-12-16 12:29am
Location: Metropolis

Post by Superman »

Admiral Drason wrote:Thank you OCS. Thank you for telling me that I can't leap tall buildings and that the Force isnt real. I'm a changed man now. I think I am going to go read the book of mormon now.
Is he really LDS? I got that impression after reading "Lost Boys" but I wasn't actually sure.
Franky, a mormon commenting on the internal self consistency of another fictional religion is kinda funny.
Buwaahahah... Give me a break. Only an idiot would subscribe that joke of a religion.
Image
User avatar
Guardsman Bass
Cowardly Codfish
Posts: 9281
Joined: 2002-07-07 12:01am
Location: Beneath the Deepest Sea

Post by Guardsman Bass »

Superman wrote:
Admiral Drason wrote:Thank you OCS. Thank you for telling me that I can't leap tall buildings and that the Force isnt real. I'm a changed man now. I think I am going to go read the book of mormon now.
Is he really LDS? I got that impression after reading "Lost Boys" but I wasn't actually sure.
Franky, a mormon commenting on the internal self consistency of another fictional religion is kinda funny.
Buwaahahah... Give me a break. Only an idiot would subscribe that joke of a religion.
That's Card for you.
“It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life.”
-Jean-Luc Picard


"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them."
-Margaret Atwood
User avatar
Civil War Man
NERRRRRDS!!!
Posts: 3790
Joined: 2005-01-28 03:54am

Post by Civil War Man »

Drunk Monkey wrote:How the hell can he compare the Jedi to the catholic church, I mean the Jedi try to serve the people the church wants to control them. :roll:
DW compares the Jedi Order from the PT to the Catholic Church in the main site, though the similarities end with "organization of celibate monks who often keep the general public in the dark in order to preserve the integrity of their order."

That being said, OSC is an idiot. He seems to have a lot of gripes with Star Trek (see the thread in PST) and now Star Wars, which as other people pointed out is most likely jealousy because Roddenberry and Lucas have more fans than he does.
User avatar
Master of Ossus
Darkest Knight
Posts: 18213
Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
Location: California

Post by Master of Ossus »

This reminds me of David Brin's laughable essays on science fiction. Apparently, these two writers believe that no form of morality, outside of their own, can possibly be presented and then not massively elaborated on for pages and pages and pages.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul

Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner

"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000

"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
User avatar
Battlehymn Republic
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1824
Joined: 2004-10-27 01:34pm

Post by Battlehymn Republic »

They should meet sometime. That would be a laugh. I've actually sent emails to David Brin before regarding his book Earth, and he's always too lazy to actually answer them.

Oh well. Jedi or not, Advent Rising is still going to rock our asses.
User avatar
Currald
Jedi Knight
Posts: 759
Joined: 2002-11-22 02:06pm
Location: Portland, Oregon, North America, Tellus, Sol System, First Galaxy
Contact:

Post by Currald »

The Jedi may claim to be in favor of democracy, but in fact they function as a ruling elite, making their decisions among themselves. They occasionally submit to the authority of the legislature, and they seem to respect the rule of law, though whose law it’s hard to say. By and large, however, they decide among themselves what they’re going to do and when it’s OK to break the law and defy the civilian authority.

They are, in fact, utterly anti-democratic, like a militia that owes nothing to civilian authority. Eventually there’s going to be a coup.
Eh, I dunno. I think this part is fairly astute, though it's nothing posters on this board haven't already said.

The man was raised Mormon and has always been a devout believer in that religion. Give him a fucking break. He may not be a Literary Genius, but he's hardly a moron.
Clear Ether, Currald
User avatar
SPOOFE
Sith Devotee
Posts: 3174
Joined: 2002-07-03 07:34pm
Location: Woodland Hills, CA
Contact:

Post by SPOOFE »

Only an idiot would subscribe that joke of a religion.
They ARE promised their own universe to control and manipulate as they see fit, if they follow all the Rules. I guess they attract all the Jeezies that want more than mere eternal contentment...
The Great and Malignant
User avatar
Superman
Pink Foamin' at the Mouth
Posts: 9690
Joined: 2002-12-16 12:29am
Location: Metropolis

Post by Superman »

Whatever Card, from everyone I have talked with, the Mormons control people way more than the Catholics do.
Image
User avatar
Peregrin Toker
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8609
Joined: 2002-07-04 10:57am
Location: Denmark
Contact:

Post by Peregrin Toker »

I too was very surprised by the moral ambiguity in ROTS, but I still actually think that made the villains more believable... it certainly kept me shocked.

Anyway, I couldn't care less about what David Brin and Orson Scott Card have to say about ROTS, the opinion on ROTS I'd like to hear is that that of the one and only Alexandro Jodorowsky. (though he might just spend most of the time chastising it for not being either that Dune adaptation he tried to film back in the 1970s or his The Caste Of The Metabarons comics)
"Hi there, would you like to have a cookie?"

"No, actually I would HATE to have a cookie, you vapid waste of inedible flesh!"
User avatar
Stark
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 36169
Joined: 2002-07-03 09:56pm
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Post by Stark »

It's amusing, since you can replace 'Jedi' with 'Catholics in the 14th century' and most of it makes sense. But hey, he believes Jesus was in north America... :roll:

I actually find the rules governing the conduct of Jedi to be very strict. However OSC wants to look at it, they're magic. Force-sensitives are potentially dangerous, so they need to be controlled. AFAIK, it's on of the subtexts of the PT that the Jedi order has ossified over time into the dogmatic form we see. Really, most of the Jedi are prisoners of the Republic: we see what happens when the government decides to kill them all.

I think it's kinda funny that he describes the Jedi as 'undemocratic', when only the threat of a Sith Lord running the show brings out these extreme measures. Obviously, the whole time they were fighting and dying for the Republic they were planning on overthrowing the Senate :roll: While it's pretty poor in real-world terms to kill a head of state, he really was an evil wizard who'd dominate the galaxy forever. Legally, Mace was a criminal, but he clearly knew what would happen if he didn't do it.
User avatar
Spanky The Dolphin
Mammy Two-Shoes
Posts: 30776
Joined: 2002-07-05 05:45pm
Location: Reykjavík, Iceland (not really)

Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

Peregrin Toker wrote:I too was very surprised by the moral ambiguity in ROTS, but I still actually think that made the villains more believable... it certainly kept me shocked.

Anyway, I couldn't care less about what David Brin and Orson Scott Card have to say about ROTS, the opinion on ROTS I'd like to hear is that that of the one and only Alexandro Jodorowsky. (though he might just spend most of the time chastising it for not being either that Dune adaptation he tried to film back in the 1970s or his The Caste Of The Metabarons comics)
I think Jodorowsky would chastise it just for the fact that the guy's a crazy fuck.
Image
I believe in a sign of Zeta.

[BOTM|WG|JL|Mecha Maniacs|Pax Cybertronia|Veteran of the Psychic Wars|Eva Expert]

"And besides, who cares if a monster destroys Australia?"
User avatar
Lord Zentei
Space Elf Psyker
Posts: 8742
Joined: 2004-11-22 02:49am
Location: Ulthwé Craftworld, plotting the downfall of the Imperium.

Post by Lord Zentei »

Or because there is not enough Freudian BS for his tastes.
CotK <mew> | HAB | JL | MM | TTC | Cybertron

TAX THE CHURCHES! - Lord Zentei TTC Supreme Grand Prophet

And the LORD said, Let there be Bosons! Yea and let there be Bosoms too!
I'd rather be the great great grandson of a demon ninja than some jackass who grew potatos. -- Covenant
Dead cows don't fart. -- CJvR
...and I like strudel! :mrgreen: -- Asuka
User avatar
Durandal
Bile-Driven Hate Machine
Posts: 17927
Joined: 2002-07-03 06:26pm
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Contact:

Post by Durandal »

So ... does this guy realize that Lucas probably portrayed the Jedi that way on purpose and as a warning against this kind of narrow dogmatism?
Damien Sorresso

"Ever see what them computa bitchez do to numbas? It ain't natural. Numbas ain't supposed to be code, they supposed to quantify shit."
- The Onion
User avatar
Noble Ire
The Arbiter
Posts: 5938
Joined: 2005-04-30 12:03am
Location: Beyond the Outer Rim

Post by Noble Ire »

Durandal wrote:So ... does this guy realize that Lucas probably portrayed the Jedi that way on purpose and as a warning against this kind of narrow dogmatism?
Phht, reasoning like that would require higher brain activity on OSC's part. :P

What a hack. Consider, his best work is out done by a video game novel (Halo: The Fall of Reach) that has many of the same basic character and plot points. No wonder he's bitter.
The Rift
Stanislav Petrov- The man who saved the world
Hugh Thompson Jr.- A True American Hero
"In the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope." - President Barack Obama
"May fortune favor you, for your goals are the goals of the world." - Ancient Chall valediction
User avatar
Knife
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15769
Joined: 2002-08-30 02:40pm
Location: Behind the Zion Curtain

Post by Knife »

I laugh at his article. Every time he goes off on the elitism and power mongering of an unelected inner circle of religious *jedi* council, I giggle and think of all the elitist, powermongering, unelected, inner circle of various priesthoods from all sectors of Christianity.

Obviously the Catholic church stands out and he makes it a target too, but Evangelicas aren't free and clear nor are the Mormons and their quarom of twelve.

All organized religions have some sort of powerbrokers at the top who are really unanswerable to no one as long as the bodies and the cash keep flowing.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
User avatar
Nephtys
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6227
Joined: 2005-04-02 10:54pm
Location: South Cali... where life is cheap!

Post by Nephtys »

Yawn. So a guy who believes in a nutbar religion in denial that says women can live forever in heaven only if their husband remembers their name is bashing Star Wars, a fictional movie that says... golly gee. Not all 'good people' are actually 'good'. Wow. Brilliant.

Honestly, Orson Scott Card is the very definition of crank hack. He pushes garbage and believes he is a great author after writing one tolerable book that would be torn apart effortlessly by even the pulpier books of Robert Heinlein, or Asimov's snot on an autographed napkin.
Post Reply