Federation planets: Why so many yet so few

[kojikun]

In a related thread in the SW Only forum I noted that 1 in 226 stars should have habitable planets and 1 in 16 should have easily terraformed planets.

We all know that the federation spaces some 8000 LY and supposedly is the thickness of the galaxy (~2000 LY) giving it a cuboid volume of 128e9 cubic LY. At local (Sol) galactic density, theres about 1 star per 300 cubic LY. This would give the federation a whopping 400 million stars. (this is not an error. figure it: 50,000 LY radius and an average thickness of 3,000 LY gives 50,000*50,000*pi*3,000 = 23,000,000,000,000 cubic lightyears and 80 billion stars, just a snag under the 100 billion supposed galactic population of stars).

Ok, now hes a problem. The federation spaces 8000 LY and SHOULD have 400,000,000 stars. Going by the information at the top of the thread, there should be 1.7 million habitable planets and 25 million easily terraformed planets.

This raises two questions: 1, if so many planets are within federation space, what about their native civilisations? surely theres more then just 100-1000 civilised planets out of a potential 25 million!

And then, given the porosity of explored federation space, as shown in numerous episodes and most oddly in Insurrection, we must ask how many inter STELLAR empires exist WITHIN the Federation that the federation is clueless about, given the vast number of stars and potential civilisations there?!

And if the federation controls far more planets then are MEMBER systems, how does it patrol them? Even with say.. 10,000 civilised worlds, that makes starfleet spread itself over an enormous distance. Even with an over exxagerated ship number of 10,000 that would only give one ship per planet. Obviously this is way too. If rebellions broke out, or if a real war started, the federation would be, to put it gently, fucked with a splintery telephone pole with rusty foot holds.

[Ghost Rider]

Because B&B only want hot sexy specis with the barains of a rock to be member worlds

[pecker]

If Earth were within an alien Empire, would they even notice us?

[Master of Ossus]

Federation space is potentially perforated and discontinuous. It is highly likely that some "arms" of Federation space stretch for a much greater distance than others, and that the main hub of the UFP is comparatively small, next to their radius.

[paladin]

Given the odds of a species developing intelligence and an advance technological culture, the low number of intelligent species in ST may be correct.

[Publius]

Out of idle curiosity, might it be possible that the 8,000 light years reference by Captain Picard was a reference to the the total volume of the United Federation? That his off-handed remark was actually meant to be "spread over 8,000 cubic light years"?

[The Dark]

As a side note, the Federation (according to the Last Unicorn Games Dominion War Sourcebook) had 8,800 ships at the beginning of the war, of which 30% were fighters.

I feel the reason they have so few settlements is they have explored so little. Remember, they often run across worlds in Federation space they know nothing about. There may well be entire minor stellar empires within the Federation they know nothing about.

[SPOOFE]

I think MoO's interpretation is the best... that the "official" Federation territory isn't exactly completely homogenous in terms of control. In TNG alone they constantly ran across planets and species that were completely new and alien, or were under local control rather than Fed control. In truth, the Federation has "control" over very little of the space it "controls".

[bozman]

And why is it that we only see a handfull of the species from all of the vast Federation space? If they have over 100 worlds in membership, why do we only see Vulcans, Andorians, Betazoids, Bolians, etc? Where are the other species?

I am starting to think that the rest of these species sign up to become part of the Federation and then never leave their planets. Maybe they are afraid of joining Starfleet because of those creeepy holodecks! The ones that supposedly cannot create things that can leave the confines of the room, but then turn around and start creating "photonic" life forms that can think for themselves... and then Prof. Moriarty takes the ship hostage and then Voyager reuses the idea and then...

[Alyeska]

As a side note, the Federation (according to the Last Unicorn Games Dominion War Sourcebook) had 8,800 ships at the beginning of the war, of which 30% were fighters.

I feel the reason they have so few settlements is they have explored so little. Remember, they often run across worlds in Federation space they know nothing about. There may well be entire minor stellar empires within the Federation they know nothing about.

The problem with that source is partially the number it gives you. How would the Federation with only 5,200 ships manage to fight the Dominion who had 30,000 ships at the end of the war.

That and its a game source book, which is about as low status as you can get for ST material.

[kojikun]

>> 8000 cubic lightyears

Thats an idea. But the problem is, that would give you only 25 stars. And a cubic side measuring a mere 20 LY across. If it were sherical itd have a radius of 12.4 lightyears. Neither of these is consistant with what weve seen in the show.

There is the possibility that the Federation is a long thin entity spanning 8000 LY yet only a few tens of LY across. A rectangular prism 8000 light years long and having at most 1000 habitable planets (and 226000 stars) would be 90 LY on its short sides (8000 * 90 * 90 / 300 / 226 = 955.7522~).

I think that Ossus is correct when saying federation space is full of unexplored/uncontrolled regions, tho if this is the case, the federation is mostly empty.

[pecker]

>> 8000 cubic lightyears

Thats an idea. But the problem is, that would give you only 25 stars. And a cubic side measuring a mere 20 LY across. If it were sherical itd have a radius of 12.4 lightyears. Neither of these is consistant with what weve seen in the show.

There is the possibility that the Federation is a long thin entity spanning 8000 LY yet only a few tens of LY across. A rectangular prism 8000 light years long and having at most 1000 habitable planets (and 226000 stars) would be 90 LY on its short sides (8000 * 90 * 90 / 300 / 226 = 955.7522~).

I think that Ossus is correct when saying federation space is full of unexplored/uncontrolled regions, tho if this is the case, the federation is mostly empty.

What were the exact words? Because whoever said it MAY have meant an 8000x8000x8000 cube.

[kojikun]

that only makes it worse! that quadruples the number of planets and species that should exist!

[The Dark]

As a side note, the Federation (according to the Last Unicorn Games Dominion War Sourcebook) had 8,800 ships at the beginning of the war, of which 30% were fighters.

I feel the reason they have so few settlements is they have explored so little. Remember, they often run across worlds in Federation space they know nothing about. There may well be entire minor stellar empires within the Federation they know nothing about.

The problem with that source is partially the number it gives you. How would the Federation with only 5,200 ships manage to fight the Dominion who had 30,000 ships at the end of the war.

That and its a game source book, which is about as low status as you can get for ST material.

They cut off the wormhole, which made it so reinforcements couldn't come through. They also enlisted the much larger Klingon and Romulan fleets, and had the Cardassians for some time as well. The Dominion War they actually fought with fairly good strategy, and their numbers did increase due to the partial-builds they threw into the fight. I'll agree it sounds a bit low, but it's not totally unbelievable. They were getting their asses kicked until their allies stepped in strongly.

[Slartibartfast]

We all know that the federation spaces some 8000 LY and supposedly is the thickness of the galaxy (~2000 LY) giving it a cuboid volume of 128e9 cubic LY.

You must bear in mind that in the Star Trek universe, the 3D dimension is hipothetical.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

In a related thread in the SW Only forum I noted that 1 in 226 stars should have habitable planets and 1 in 16 should have easily terraformed planets.

Who said this? I'd think it be more like 1 in 1000 at least.

[kojikun]

Its taken from Islands in the Sky page 162. Author of the Chapter (its a multiauthor book) is Martyn J. Fogg, has a Master of Science degree in Astrophysics.

His homepage is here: http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~mfogg/cv.htm

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

And what's his evidence?

[kojikun]

The fact that hes got his MASTERS in ASTROPHYSICS kind of gives him credit, Thrawn..

[SirNitram]

The fact that hes got his MASTERS in ASTROPHYSICS kind of gives him credit, Thrawn..

I will give you a hint. No one knows the liklihood of Earth-type planets. NO ONE. The only planets we've found outside our system are supergiants, many times bigger than Jupiter.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I just don't see what the problem is.

Both in this thread and the SW one.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

The fact that hes got his MASTERS in ASTROPHYSICS kind of gives him credit, Thrawn..

Ah, an Appeal to Authority. In the end, he's just guessing.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

I just don't see what the problem is.

Both in this thread and the SW one.

There is a problem or isn't, depending on how many inhabitable planets you belieave there are per star.

[kojikun]

Not appeal to authority, just a fact. The man knows a thousand times more then anyone here does on the subject.

His guess, however, is based on whats known about planetary formations (such as maximum and minimum light intensity to put planets into certain conditions) as well as figuring our which stars "earthlike" planets can form around. If our solar system type is common, and it seem it may very well be given whats known about other systems, his calculations are about correct.

The sim goes like this: figure the hottest and coldest a planet can be then figure out which stars can support such planets, then simulate their conditions.

Granted its not likely to be exact, but its a good estimate.

[ArmorPierce]

We all know that the federation spaces some 8000 LY and supposedly is the thickness of the galaxy (~2000 LY) giving it a cuboid volume of 128e9 cubic LY.

You must bear in mind that in the Star Trek universe, the 3D dimension is hipothetical.

Yeah so a flat Federation is probably the way it is