Palpatine was NOT deformed

[Glimmervoid]

Everything with how it happened in the film contradicts with the presetation within the novelisation. In the film it was literally like a transition rather than a progressing injury. Stover is just full of shit. I find any sort of evidence for it being an injury to be utterly unconvincing, while it being a disquise to be on the level.

It's inconsistant that such an injury occur when delivering Force Lightning at such a weak level that not even bone illumination occurs, let alone the injury occurring at all in the first place: that's never been seen either.

Not if the lightning was damaging his soul and causing an "aging" like effect like so EU subjects it dose.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Don't be rediculous. Force corruption of such a massive degree isn't istantaneous like that. Palpatine has to have been already corrupted in the first place.

[Crown]

I agree on that, but the novelisation is still wrong concerning the point and reason for Palpatine's change in appearence.

Wrong on what? What higher source of cannon do we have disagreeing with the novelisation?

Additionally there is the fact that both Maul and Sideous have yellow eyes constantly, and Vader had yellow eyes some of the time.

You're wrong about that. The script clearly says that Palps eyes go yellow when he is deep inside the Dark Side and seeking a power boost.

This plus Palpatine's form seems to show that he is much deeper in the Dark Side than Maul. It's been mentioned in the EU at various times that Palpatine was essentially the most poweful Force user alive at the time, and perhaps one of the most powerful among those known to live (certainly evident from WEG's old character stats: Palpatine is the most powerful of any era).

The EU does not over rule the novelisation. It is of a higher order of cannon for one, and it is the more rescent for the other.

[Perinquus]

Don't be rediculous. Force corruption of such a massive degree isn't istantaneous like that. Palpatine has to have been already corrupted in the first place.

Sez who? What definitive treatment of the Force is there that leaves you so well informed as to its nature that you can make such a categorical statement? Jesus folks, I feel like I'm arguing that the Pope is catholic. It's stated in canon. Nothing in the film contradicts it either. We have never seen a dark side Force user put such an expenditure of energy into Force lightning for as lengthy a duration. The closest approach we have is the Emperor's death scene, and you can't make such a categorical assertion based on that because:

1) the lightning attack against Vader was of shorter duration
2) it didn't seem to hit Vader as hard (he was still able to complete his attack on Palpatine, whereas Mace was completely immobilized by it, and unable to do anything but stand there and convulse like a man being electrocuted)
3) the Emperor was already twisted and malformed in appearance before the lightning attack on Vader, and
4) the Emperor was dropped down a long shaft, so we didn't have him around after the attack on Vader to compare his before and after appearance.

It's stated in a canon source. Why is it so important to you that it be otherwise?

[Jack Bauer]

Until an official clarification (possibly on the DVD commentary) is issued over these two seemingly contradicting explanations (either that 1. the Force lightning disfigured Palpatine, or that 2. the lightning merely destroyed the Palpatine "disguise" and revaled Sidious's true face), we may have to settle on a compromise:

That the "Palpatine" mask and disguise was physically deformed and "burned" away by the deflected attack and this reveals the true face of Darth Sidious, which is ravaged by Dark Side powers.

I believe that is the most plausible explanation. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

1. Compromise isn't really the way it works, that sounds like that Xavier punk from that Furry Conflict shit.

2. Trator.

[Noble Ire]

1. Compromise isn't really the way it works, that sounds like that Xavier punk from that Furry Conflict shit.

Ah yes, the one with his Uber, uber, uber transwarp speeds for the sake of technological parity.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Everything about that shithead was parity. It was like he wasn't interested so much in debate as he was making sure everybody had a nice time at the tea party.

[Noble Ire]

Everything about that shithead was parity. It was like he wasn't interested so much in debate as he was making sure everybody had a nice time at the tea party.

Yes, I did note that. I still post there from time to time, but the only time there was a decent debate there and I got involved in it, Xavier stopped it, Because "we were being too agressive" or something like that.

Back to the topic:
I'm still in favor of the illusion disipation. "Emperor Dopplepopilis."

[Sam Or I]

I am going to go with that the Force Lightning caused the deformation. We have nothing to support the doppleganger theory besides "he's trixy", and not alot of smoke. We have never seen lightning from its users hit himself before. We know force lightning drains life. I am going with the feedbak loop theory.

I am going with Occam's razor and saying the lightning caused it.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

We have never seen lightning from its users hit himself before.

I don't really see how that would change anything.

[Noble Ire]

I am going to go with that the Force Lightning caused the deformation. We have nothing to support the doppleganger theory besides "he's trixy", and not alot of smoke. We have never seen lightning from its users hit himself before. We know force lightning drains life. I am going with the feedbak loop theory.

I am going with Occam's razor and saying the lightning caused it.

No one questions that the lightning did it. Whats in dispute is what the energy actually destroyed, an illusion or his actual face. The fact that the "scaring" left by the attack is almost symetrical, and the face melting bit looks just like a morphing image, not burning and disentigrating flesh supports the illusion disapation theory.

As for Stover's novelization, I still say that the description is exaggerated, and even in the book after the scene, Palpy seems completely unphased.

[Straha]

We have never seen lightning from its users hit himself before.

I don't really see how that would change anything.

Every other time we've seen someone hit by Force Lightning they've been able to put all, or almost all, their efforts into resisting it. In this case Palpatine can't because he is throwing all of his power into intensifying the lightning, which could not have helped him at all.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Is that all?

[Illuminatus Primus]

I agree on that, but the novelisation is still wrong concerning the point and reason for Palpatine's change in appearence.

Wrong on what? What higher source of cannon do we have disagreeing with the novelisation?

Additionally there is the fact that both Maul and Sideous have yellow eyes constantly, and Vader had yellow eyes some of the time.

You're wrong about that. The script clearly says that Palps eyes go yellow when he is deep inside the Dark Side and seeking a power boost.

This plus Palpatine's form seems to show that he is much deeper in the Dark Side than Maul. It's been mentioned in the EU at various times that Palpatine was essentially the most poweful Force user alive at the time, and perhaps one of the most powerful among those known to live (certainly evident from WEG's old character stats: Palpatine is the most powerful of any era).

The EU does not over rule the novelisation. It is of a higher order of cannon for one, and it is the more rescent for the other.

Its simple science; real-time facial reconstructive surgery by lightning that increases the volume of your face is not possible. There's a reason I don't like it, and there's a reason that Dr. Saxton thinks that its an "irrationalist" position. Science overrides lower canon too, and when an equal-level canon source (VD) describes it as unvieling his true face and the novelization has Palpatine describing "the face of Palpatine" and "the face of Sidious" wistfully, I go with science and the more rational POV.

[Utsanomiko]

So what parts of Sidious' 'new' face are due to injuries and which were just under the disguise? And how does his noice and eyes fit in, or are they just coincidence?

Because I find this compromise theiry to be nonsense, trying to merely fit in Sidious' dialogue and the novel's different scene description. In fact it ends up making him sound even more rediculously uber by suggesting he can get his face scared and life drained significantly despite never seeing any such thing from lethal force-lightning blasts and yet stand right back up like nothing happened.

And wasn't the last time we saw a lightsaber 'reflect' force lightning was in ep II, where Obi-Wan blocked an attack from Dooku? I recall it merely dissipated. It's also assumption that Sidious is even putting 'unlimited power' (jesus christ why keep repeating that semantics? Are we really that desparate to go by his words?) into his force-lightning untill Mace loses his hand, but rather enough to hold back Windu while protecting himself enough to not get serriously injured/paralyzed.

[Straha]

Its simple science; real-time facial reconstructive surgery by lightning that increases the volume of your face is not possible. There's a reason I don't like it, and there's a reason that Dr. Saxton thinks that its an "irrationalist" position. Science overrides lower canon too, and when an equal-level canon source (VD) describes it as unvieling his true face and the novelization has Palpatine describing "the face of Palpatine" and "the face of Sidious" wistfully, I go with science and the more rational POV.

Alright, take the VD, turn the Palpatine Page, and look to the upper right hand corner. It says there, quite clearly, that his face is Lightning Deformed (or Scarred maybe.) Appealing to Science with the force is tricky too, according to science you shouldn't have the force being able to suck energy out of a man via Force Lightning, or levitate things, or have precognition, yet we accept these all as facts, is it so far of a leap to say "Lightning can Disfigure a face"?
Finally, your argument that increases the Volume of the face is belayed by the flaw that we never see his true face. No one is denying that part of what we see is his disguise coming off, so the problem here is that we don't know what to attribute to the disguise, and what to attribute to his deformation.

[Predator]

What do we know?

1. Dark side corruption tends to mess with your appearance. Fucked up eyes seems a very consistent symptom. The KOTOR games show us that dark siders often degenerate further, altering skin colouration, and creating scarring on the face. Darth Sideous was undoubtedly deeply corrupted by the dark side, so we would expect him to have a fucked up appearance in some way. That he didnt supports the idea that it was an ilusion or disguise of some kind.

2. In order to fool the jedi and the republic, Palpatine would need to appear normal. Otherwise, you know, the Jedi might suspect something. Palpatine did have a normal appearance. This seems surprising considering his mastery of the dark side, and supports the idea of an illusion or disguise of some kind.

3. Once Windu was dead, Sideous would have little reason to "fix" his face up in a disguise again, if it was a disguise he was using previously. 2 is no longer a problem - he could hardly have kept his nature a secret from this point on. And, it served him politically. Therefore, the fact that he did not resume a normal appearance is not evidence that he was never using a disguise. This doesnt damage the argument that it was an illusion or disguise of some kind.

4. When force lightening has been used on someone in the past, there's been no disfigurement resulting. We didnt see Windu's face melting, we didnt see Luke's face melting, and Vader's face was only as fucked up as we'd expect it to be. Therefore, it would seem unusual if Sidious's disfigurement was a result of force lightening.

5. Previous uses of force lightening have shown an x-ray effect and smoke. The reflected force lightening did not x-ray Palpatine or produce similar levels of smoke. That these effects werent present with Palpatine makes it difficult to argue that the lightening was having a more damaging effect upon him in order to create disfigurement, or that he was less able to resist its effects, than in the cases of Luke, Mace, and Vader.

6. Sidious seemed unphased after Mace was dead. He didnt put his hands to his face to investigate it's new shape, he didnt seek a mirror, he seemed quite comfortable. Nothing about his tranformation seemed surprising or disturbing to him. If that wasnt his "real" face, you would expect him to react in some way to his disfigurement.

7. Sidious's appearance after the transformation was symmetrical and free of burns, and his hair was still present and neat. It seems odd that force lightening would disfigure someone in such an way - even, puffy, and bloated rather than charred, blistered, and singed. Therefore, it is unlikely that Sidious's transformation was a burning or disfigurement of his normal face, but rather that Sidious merely shed a disguise.

[Crown]

Its simple science; real-time facial reconstructive surgery by lightning that increases the volume of your face is not possible. There's a reason I don't like it, and there's a reason that Dr. Saxton thinks that its an "irrationalist" position. Science overrides lower canon too, and when an equal-level canon source (VD) describes it as unvieling his true face and the novelization has Palpatine describing "the face of Palpatine" and "the face of Sidious" wistfully, I go with science and the more rational POV.

I'm pretty sure that the novelisation that Lucas had a line-edit policy on is higher than the VD, and science takes a back seat to that; just like it does when people have their fucking X-Ray's done at the same time when being subjected to Force Lightning. You don't like it? Fine, believe me when I say that I wholey sympathise with you, but it's cannon. It is not over ruled by the VD (see Straha's post), and we know Lucas had a line edit on the thing.

And the yellow eyes are precedance, in the script it clearly shows the color of one's eyes changing with their immersion in the Dark Side.

[Winston Blake]

Alright, take the VD, turn the Palpatine Page, and look to the upper right hand corner. It says there, quite clearly, that his face is Lightning Deformed (or Scarred maybe.)

Actually, it says this:

Two Faces
"Always two there are"- not only master and apprentice, but persona and true face. Unmasked by deflected lightning during his duel with Mace Windu, the Sith Lord's true face is revealed to the world. But for the Senate, the Jedi could not damage Palpatine's reputation.

In the upper right corner, it says:
"Face has turned yellow in anger"

EDIT: just noticed that in the middle top it does says "Face deformed by Sith lightning"

[Deathstalker]

I'm not sure how it fits cannon wise, but in Star Wars Insider #82, there is an interview with Ian McDiarmid, and on page 59, there is the following quote.

"The Emperor that you see in the last film looks like he does because he's very old and very evil-it is what he always looked like."

In the article he mentions that GL hadn't decided whether to have Siddy go back and forth with his appearance, and it was a makeup decision to keep the Siddy face after the fight with Mace.

[Junghalli]

My preferred explanation is that he got reckless and channeled so much Dark Side energy into his force lightening that it exceeded his body's capability to deal with it. I've heard many times that the Dark Side is supposed to be like a physical toxin to a certain extent, that it drains the vitality of a person and eats away at their physical health. Palpatine was channeling massively unsafe levels of it, and as it a result it physically scarred him, sort of like overdosing on a drug or getting radiation burns. Either that or he put so much of his own Force into the lightening that he drained his own life energy (we know from the books with the Ssi-Ruuk that people do have individual Force energy, it's not like magic that just comes from nowhere).
Personally I'm glad they actually set an upper limit to Palpatine's power level. The disguise thing is just BS by people who don't want to admit it. There go those continent-levelling force storms. Suck it down Sith-wankers.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Except that his lightning output was actually pretty low at that point.

[Utsanomiko]

No kidding, not only did he go much much higher to get Windu's skeleton to glow (but not deform his skin. Odd...), but if he took enough damage to warp his face that way, he was evidently then uber enough to simply dust himself off and stand up.

I mean how retarded is that for Sith-wanking, if you really think about it?
*Leaps to feet* "I'm horribly mangled but I am still teh winnar!! You can't weaken me cuz I have Unlimited Powah! I'm gonna go throw a star destroyer now!!"

[Crazedwraith]

My preferred explanation is that he got reckless and channeled so much Dark Side energy into his force lightening that it exceeded his body's capability to deal with it. I've heard many times that the Dark Side is supposed to be like a physical toxin to a certain extent, that it drains the vitality of a person and eats away at their physical health. Palpatine was channeling massively unsafe levels of it, and as it a result it physically scarred him, sort of like overdosing on a drug or getting radiation burns. Either that or he put so much of his own Force into the lightening that he drained his own life energy (we know from the books with the Ssi-Ruuk that people do have individual Force energy, it's not like magic that just comes from nowhere).
Personally I'm glad they actually set an upper limit to Palpatine's power level. The disguise thing is just BS by people who don't want to admit it. There go those continent-levelling force storms. Suck it down Sith-wankers.

In reference to the bolded: This is also Backed up from I,Jedi Wherein Corran intially can only use the firce in vary minor ways by using the part of the force his own body created but he found it hard to open up to the force as a grand cosmic whole.