OSC whining about 'moral relativism' in ROTS

[Battlehymn Republic]

So ... does this guy realize that Lucas probably portrayed the Jedi that way on purpose and as a warning against this kind of narrow dogmatism?

Phht, reasoning like that would require higher brain activity on OSC's part.

What a hack. Consider, his best work is out done by a video game novel (Halo: The Fall of Reach) that has many of the same basic character and plot points. No wonder he's bitter.

Wasn't the whole bit of creating the child Spartans a direct rip-off of Ender's Game? They threw in a few things to make it more "dangerous", and "xtreme", but it was similar in some ways.

[Noble Ire]

So ... does this guy realize that Lucas probably portrayed the Jedi that way on purpose and as a warning against this kind of narrow dogmatism?

Phht, reasoning like that would require higher brain activity on OSC's part.

What a hack. Consider, his best work is out done by a video game novel (Halo: The Fall of Reach) that has many of the same basic character and plot points. No wonder he's bitter.

Wasn't the whole bit of creating the child Spartans a direct rip-off of Ender's Game? They threw in a few things to make it more "dangerous", and "xtreme", but it was similar in some ways.

I wouldnt call it a ripoff, although they do share similar components (I'm sure it was influenced by Ender's Game.) However, for me at least, if the "ripoff" is more engaging than the original, I'm going for the ripoff.

[Il Saggiatore]

It’s one thing to put your faith in a religion founded by a real person who claimed divine revelation, but it’s something else entirely to have, as the scripture of your religion, a storyline that you know was made up by a very nonprophetic human being.

I hope I got my facts straight:

The Book of Mormon was written by a real person.
The Star Wars scripts were written by... a real person.
The first claims (and I stress claims) divine revelation, the second does not.
Both are works of fiction.

I realize that OSC's statement does not have to make sense, but the second "real person" seems to be a bit more honest than the first.

[Cal Wright]

Now I won't feel bad when I blast that shitty Xbox game coming that he wrote the dialog and parts of the storyline for.

[Guardsman Bass]

Now I won't feel bad when I blast that shitty Xbox game coming that he wrote the dialog and parts of the storyline for.

Oh, come on! Show some pity . .. . . for the game.

[Battlehymn Republic]

Partisanship at its finest.

[Eleas]

Actually, I loved Ender's Game. And unlike most people, I found its sequels even better. I reckon I've read most of the Scifi / Fantasy authors anyone could care to name since I was ten years old. To put it succinctly, I believe I can recognize quality, and despite its simplistic prose, the Ender series has it.

That said, I've had to reconcile this fact with the equally apparent fact that Card is fucked in the head. He's on some kind of unfathomable emotional rampage against mainstream SF cinema, and hell-bent on breaking every single logical process if it helps his campaign; I suspect his issues are even deeper than that goal, but only time will tell. In the end, though, it matters very little, and I've no small appreciation for the fact that this is precisely what enrages him.

Namely, that nobody really cares about his opinions.

[speaker-to-trolls]

So if a religion is known to be fictional, trains its exclusive practitioners to be killing machines, and doesn’t actually work in the real world, why do people call themselves Jedi?

As a protest against religion in general?

As a yearning for power?

Or as a dream of a world in which virtue, however it’s defined, can actually do something tangible against the evil in the universe?

Or, I don't know, maybe as a FUCKING JOKE!. Jesus, did it never occur to him that when people declare themselves a member of a fictional religion they might not actually be serious?.

[Eleas]

Or, I don't know, maybe as a FUCKING JOKE!. Jesus, did it never occur to him that when people declare themselves a member of a fictional religion they might not actually be serious?.

I think what's more interesting (and far more telling) is his open contempt for the idea that virtue can oppose evil...

[Nephtys]

So if a religion is known to be fictional, trains its exclusive practitioners to be killing machines, and doesn’t actually work in the real world, why do people call themselves Jedi?

Waitwaitwait. Orson Scott Card... a hardcore MORMON... is saying other religions are fictional? Excuse me. *breaks down laughing*

Jedi is a better religion than Mormon to boot. You get plastic laser-sword toys, snappy uniforms, and unlike mormonism, women aren't delegated solely to the role of mobile wombs. Plus, we have animatronic Yoda's lying about in warehouses that are high Level canon. Where's the related mormon stuff? ;P

[Junghalli]

I always thought if anything RoTS was subtlely showing moral relativism to be a tool of the truly evil. Notice how it's always Palpatine complaining about the "closed-minded" Jedi and how Anakin has to learn to explore everything about the Force and not just the Light Side. He sounds like a Berkeley professor.

[Darth Bowser]

Maybe if Star Wars involved reading shit out of a hat he'd loved it....

[FireNexus]

The funniest part about this is that his whole rant is based off of one line that he took out of context, typical of fundamentalist anythings. Obi's "Only the Sith deal in absolutes!" was obviously meant to respond to Anakin saying the equivalent of "You're either with me or against me." Those were the absolutes he was talking about. Not necessarily all absolutes.

[Darth Wong]

A Mormon criticizing moral relativism is the funniest goddamned thing I've heard in a long time. The Mormon religion is based on a completely falsified bullshit pseudo-history invented by a polygamist white-supremacist pedophile. All of those things (white supremacism, polygamy, pedophilia) are now disavowed by the same church which continues to uphold that fucking guy as a "Latter-Day Saint".

If that isn't moral relativism, what the fuck is?

[Imperial Overlord]

Tiny nitpick: Joseph Smith wasn't racist. One of the elders of the early Mormon Church was black. It was his successor Birgham Young that introduced racism. And you forgot con man (his pre-prophet career was "diviner" and he was sued by one of his clients).

[Stravo]

The "Only a Sith deals in Absolutes" fits perfectly with the character of Obi Wan Kenobi who is introduced in ROTS as 'the negotiator'. Obi Wan is a dipolomat first and a fighter second. Diplomacy is all about grey. There are no absolutes because then there can be no compromises. This is the reason why Bush's "Either you're with us or against us" line drove so many of the diplomacy minded up the wall.

[Spacebeard]

Ender's Game: Ender orders the destruction of a planet. This is considered an act of heroism because it was necessary for the preservation of the human race. He agonizes over his decision later, but is widely hailed as a hero.

A New Hope: Tarkin orders the destruction of a planet. This is considered an act of genocide. He is killed.

--

Shadow of the Hegemon: A man who once tortured his younger siblings and skinned live squirrels for amusement tries to take over the world. Our heros help him because he isn't as bad as Achilles.

Revenge of the Sith: A man who murders children joins an attempt to take over the galaxy. His legs are cut off and he is left for dead.

So, which series has the "moral relativism" again? I've seen it argued (here, for example) that in Ender's Game, only the actor's intentions matter when judging the morality of an act. What could be more relative?

[Noble Ire]

So, which series has the "moral relativism" again? I've seen it argued (here, for example) that in Ender's Game, only the actor's intentions matter when judging the morality of an act. What could be more relative?

Wait, by that reasoning, couldnt Palpatine be considered moral, good, and justified?

[Kuja]

So, which series has the "moral relativism" again? I've seen it argued (here, for example) that in Ender's Game, only the actor's intentions matter when judging the morality of an act. What could be more relative?

Wait, by that reasoning, couldnt Palpatine be considered moral, good, and justified?

How? Palpatine initiated a war that caused millions of deaths and ruthlessly manipulated peoples' lives so that he could end up with total control of the galaxy.

How could this possibly be considered moral, good, and justified?

[Noble Ire]

How? Palpatine initiated a war that caused millions of deaths and ruthlessly manipulated peoples' lives so that he could end up with total control of the galaxy.

How could this possibly be considered moral, good, and justified?

Palpatine wanted to bring the galaxy under his dominion, and at least in part he wanted to give it order. Is order bad?

Perhaps I should have used another example, Tarkin maybe.

[Kuja]

Palpatine wanted to bring the galaxy under his dominion, and at least in part he wanted to give it order. Is order bad?

Order was just an excuse. He might say he wants order and peace, but I trust Palpatine about as far as I can throw him. Palpatine's goal was always nothing more than power. All the flowery words were just a shield from the truth: Palpatine doesn't give a fuck about anyone but himself.

Perhaps I should have used another example, Tarkin maybe.

According to some material, Tarkin planned to use the Death Star to betray Palpatine and take control of the Empire. He's just as bad as his boss.

[Noble Ire]

Quote:
Perhaps I should have used another example, Tarkin maybe.


According to some material, Tarkin planned to use the Death Star to betray Palpatine and take control of the Empire. He's just as bad as his boss.

Wow, I never heard of that. Where is it from?

[Kuja]

I'm fairly certain it's in both editions of the Essential Guide to Characters.

It's the reason Vader was sent to the Death Star in the first place: Palpatine wanted him to keep an eye on Tarkin and cut him down if he tried to pull a fast one.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Supposed and allegedly, of course.

[Kuja]

Supposed and allegedly, of course.

IIRC, Tarkin's entry actually does state that he fully intended to betray the Emperor. Palpatine and Vader just weren't sure of his intentions yet.

Then of course, it all became irrelevant.