STvsSW in Highschool?!

[neoolong]

I think it's more along the lines of the stories are timeless. Nearly any modern movie or television epsiode can be traced back (admittedly loosely) to a Shakespeare play of some sort. Add the other "classics," and it's almost certain. The names and settings may change, but the guts of the story are the same.

Deep Structuralism holds that there are only a certain number of "structures" like plots. They are then constantly told and retold. That is why so many stories throughout history have had similar premises. Like Romeo and Juliet and Attack of the Clones are both, at a fundamental level, about forbidden love and the harm it can do when forbidden.

[Slartibartfast]

Letter from Kirk to the Empire:
"You might attack us, but united we will prevail, and you'll never defeat us... Ok, maybe you could pillage, plunder us, steal our wives, but we will never surrender. Hm, well, we could surrender, but even if you attacked every single home in the Federation, our wills could not be broken, and we would still oppose you. Or even if you broke our wills with your orbital attacks and base-delta-zero, there would still be dissenters, who would oppose you from within... maybe not, maybe you'll kill them all, and there will be no rebels, but still some people will hate you for it, inside their minds you'll be the enemy... unless you brainwashed everybody, then I guess... still... the Federation will... live... forever, in spirit!"

[Anarchist Bunny]

I had to read R&J in 9th grade, what was worse than the accually having to read it(and watch the modern Leo version of R&J in fucking class) was the little stupid kids in my class trying to understand 1) what was going on and 2) why characters didn't do certain things("I would of just smacked that hoe and got it on" was about what one idiot said, and about half the class couldn't understand how the Capulets and the Montegues were fueding and why that ment that Romeo and Juliet couldn't hook up.

Last year we read Midsummer Nights Dream which I like a HELL of a lot more than Romeo and Juliet, loved Puck, and had to watch the newer version of the movie, the one with Calista Flockheart(who surprisingly, someone I know who had a pamplet from years ago of the play that was in town that started Flockheart) and thought it was a HELL of a lot better than that FUCKING NEW R&J SHIT!

Luckly this year english class's theme is AMERICAN lit, and even though I read LotR and Mostly Harmless, the books we're reading as a class won't be Shakespeare, right now were on Huck Finn.

[The Dark]

I remember reading as Puck when my HS class did MSND. Best role I ever got to read. Best portrayal I ever saw was the UCF Shakespeare Festival, when they did it in Colonial India (this was before the movie). Puck was a white monkey, and Oberon and Titania were painted blue and had the glyphs on their hands to look like Hindu deities. It was done outdoors in a theater by a lake, and they threw in a gratuitous stuffed alligator fight which added some extra humor to the play. Good stuff.

[data_link]

I think it's more along the lines of the stories are timeless. Nearly any modern movie or television epsiode can be traced back (admittedly loosely) to a Shakespeare play of some sort. Add the other "classics," and it's almost certain. The names and settings may change, but the guts of the story are the same.

First, if you want to get technical, most of those stories can be traced back to ancient tribal legends. Shakespeare didn't invent the stories either.

Second, while I'm sure you can trace the elements of any story back through the ages to arrive at a classic, to say (as many English teachers do) that all modern works are simply "modernized" versions of classics is simply ludicrous. It's a lot like saying that humans are simply "modernized" versions of fish, or the creationist argument that evolution cannot produce animals of different "kinds." As more new elements are added, at some point you have to admit that you are dealing with a different creature.

[Stravo]

The bard is a MASTER of the english language. You guys are missing the point. The reason why it is a classic and required reading is not so much because the stories are so original and well written, its because of the use of the language. It literally is a story in poem form. I'd like to see some of the great authors of this century put their work in Iambic pentameter. Think of some of these great lines and see what I'm talking about it is a rich use of our language:

"You could wrap me up in a nutshell and I'd call myself king of the universe were it not that I have bad dreams."

"My greatest love comes from my greatest hate."

""Therefore in fierce tempest he is coming, in thunder and earth quake like a Jove."

"Life is but a poor player who struts and frets his hour upon the stage and is heard no more."

"Is this a dagger of the mind I see before me?"

"Cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of war!"

I can go on and on but I hope you get the point, Shakespeare is not so much a great writer as he is an absolute master of the english language, he makes it beautiful, sublime, powerful, romantic, he bends it all to his will and I pray to have a tenth of his mastery and talent with the language.

[Darth Servo]

I can go on and on but I hope you get the point, Shakespeare is not so much a great writer as he is an absolute master of the english language, he makes it beautiful, sublime, powerful, romantic, he bends it all to his will and I pray to have a tenth of his mastery and talent with the language.

Its still boring as hell.

[data_link]

The bard is a MASTER of the english language. You guys are missing the point. The reason why it is a classic and required reading is not so much because the stories are so original and well written, its because of the use of the language. It literally is a story in poem form. I'd like to see some of the great authors of this century put their work in Iambic pentameter. Think of some of these great lines and see what I'm talking about it is a rich use of our language:

"You could wrap me up in a nutshell and I'd call myself king of the universe were it not that I have bad dreams."

"My greatest love comes from my greatest hate."

""Therefore in fierce tempest he is coming, in thunder and earth quake like a Jove."

"Life is but a poor player who struts and frets his hour upon the stage and is heard no more."

"Is this a dagger of the mind I see before me?"

"Cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of war!"

I can go on and on but I hope you get the point, Shakespeare is not so much a great writer as he is an absolute master of the english language, he makes it beautiful, sublime, powerful, romantic, he bends it all to his will and I pray to have a tenth of his mastery and talent with the language.

That's nice. And the fact that he can make some cool-sounding lines (a subjective evaluation I disagree with) automatically makes him superior to someone who can think of a good plot to go with them? The fact that some of his lines sound good is cause to ignore the fact that you can't even understand most of them? There are no good lines from more recent works? Yeah, right.

I am sick and tired of people who defend no-Willy Shake(n as a baby)speare as the greatest writer of all time. I don't care if he can do some stupid tricks with the language - his plays are boring, uninteresting, lack depth of thought, and frankly just plain stupid. The fact that they are written in Iambic pentameter just makes them more stupid - if Shakespeare had written them in prose, then I might be able to sit through them without barfing. If you like Shakespeare, that's your deal, but to try to say he is the greatest writer of all time is simply bullshit.

Just for the hell of it, I will now heckle the lines you provided:

You could wrap me up in a nutshell and I'd call myself king of the universe were it not that I have bad dreams. Aww, the little baby has nightmares. Not only that, but he is delusional. If I wrapped him up in a nutshell, he wouldn't call himself king of the universe, he'd say "HELP, I'm in a nutshell and I can't get out!"

My greatest love comes from my greatest hate. No, actually it comes from hormones. Try actually developing a brain. On second thought, don't. I'd rather see you kill yourself. (Greatest part of the play, that.)

Therefore in fierce tempest he is coming, in thunder and earth quake like a Jove. Uh, could you translate that for me? I don't speak gibberish.

Life is but a poor player who struts and frets his hour upon the stage and is heard no more. No, actually that's you. Get off the stage you loon.

Is this a dagger of the mind I see before me? No, it's your hand, stupid. Really, can't you do a better job of hallucinating than that?

Cry Havoc and let slip the dogs of war! War has dogs? Why are you crying if you're going into battle? And wouldn't you be better off using guns?

[Uraniun235]

Not a fan of drama are we?

And, uh, "Cry havoc" does not mean he's crying... it means in that context to cry out. As in to shout.

data_link, part of your problem is that English was different back in Bill's day. If you went back in time to his era, you'd probably be utterly befuddled if you tried to start a conversation... at least, based on what you've been saying, you would be.

Who do you think is the "greatest writer of all time"?

[data_link]

Not a fan of drama are we?

And, uh, "Cry havoc" does not mean he's crying... it means in that context to cry out. As in to shout.

data_link, part of your problem is that English was different back in Bill's day. If you went back in time to his era, you'd probably be utterly befuddled if you tried to start a conversation... at least, based on what you've been saying, you would be.

Who do you think is the "greatest writer of all time"?

I like drama, I just don't like Shakespeare.

I know what cry havoc means in context, I just felt like mocking it anyway. You will notice that in mocking things, I deliberately ignore what they are supposed to mean in order to make them sound more stupid than they already are.

I'm well aware that English was different and that I'd be as likely to be understood there as in Japan - that doesn't excuse lack of plot.

I don't have a firm opinion on the greatest writer of all time. I do have a firm opinion on Shakespeare however, and that opinion is I really don't like him, and I'm tired of people telling me how great he was, or saying that I become "culturally enriched" by reading his plays. I'm also tired of having to read his idiotic plays in school just because some old farts do like him. If you like Shakespeare, that's your deal, but if you try to tell me that I should like him, or that he has never been surpassed, or other shit like that, I become really offended, because it's people like YOU that justify the people who want to keep us students busy doing pointless analyses of his work.

[Eleas]

I know what cry havoc means in context, I just felt like mocking it anyway. You will notice that in mocking things, I deliberately ignore what they are supposed to mean in order to make them sound more stupid than they already are.

...which to my mind is pointless, silly, and contrieved. If you have to bolster your ridicule of them in this clumsy fashion in order for it to be noticeable, that seems to me like a clear indication that your point doesn't stand unexaggerated.

I'm well aware that English was different and that I'd be as likely to be understood there as in Japan - that doesn't excuse lack of plot.

What "plot" would there be in mere disassociated sentences?

Look, I understand where you're coming from here; I'm not hugely enamored by Shakespeare's works either. Still, "...mak[ing] them sound more stupid than they already are" is awfully close to perpetuating strawmen.

[data_link]

If you will recall, the heckling I did of the lines was "Just for the hell of it" and had nothing to do with my point.

[Uraniun235]

It wasn't even amusing heckling.

[God Emperor]

Back on track people. My question is can Kirk actually represent the federation? look at the number of times he broke the rules, even if the prime directive is BS the federation would never chose him.