50 US Marines w/SW Equipment vs 50 US Marines w/ST Equipmen

[SAMAS]

[ULR=http://forums.comicbookresources.com/sh ... hp?t=58330]Check this out[/URL]

Basically this is Stromtroopers vs Red Shirts with a twist.

On side has 50 US Marines outfitted with standard Stromtrooper personal gear--armor, blaster rifles, and helmet radios.

The other has 50 US Marines outfitted with standard Red Shirt gear--phaser pistols, tricorders, flip-open communicators, and red shirt uniforms.

All soldiers have about equal levels of training and experience, and were given 2 weeks training with their new equipment prior to the fight. The fight takes place in a hilly wooded area with both sides starting about 1 mile apart.

Which side wins?

I've kinda held on by myself, but seriously, my Kung-Fu needs work.

Any suggestions? Be careful some of the other guys have the "It's SDN, so it's wrong!" mentality."

[SAMAS]

Damn, can I get a fix on that link?

[Faqa]

It equalizes one factor Stormies have over redshirts(training), but leaves all the others the same. Unless the ST team is made up of Gunny Hartmans and Pyles, they're screwed up(Hartman, because he could turn em' into snivelling ashes at blaster rifle range, and Pyle because he was shown to be an exceptionally good shot)...

[Enforcer Talen]

do the stormies get cami suits?

[Alyeska]

Since this is assumed just basic infantry weaponry, we can ignore the pretty and expensive and also rare stuff.

I would have to say in most situations (especialy open ground) the better speed and firepower on SW weaponry will be an advantage. However, in CQB the Starfleet phaser weaponry can potentialy be very useful. The downside is for the Trek using side, the SW weaponry comes with grenades.

But some questions to consider. Does SW equipment automaticaly come with jamming equipment and other forms of ECM? This is important because tricorders come standard for ST bassed forces, and its possible the inteligence game can allow the ST bassed equipment forces to win in certain situations.

[Shroom Man 777]

Explosive blaster bolts at full auto are bad, mmmkay? Shrapnel, and phaser beams might be a wee bit nullfied by the Stormie armor. A wee bit for the phaser. And nullified, entirely, for the shrap.

[Alyeska]

Phasers set on full power have more then sufficent energy to kill a Stormie. In an earlier discussion talking about Delta Squad (Republic Commando) on the Enterprise-E, it was agreed that full power phaser rifle shots on an RC would do very bad things to the RC. Stormie armor is less advanced in areas of protection as compared to RC armor/shields. And do consider this. Stormtroopers are not the standard SW ground forces. They are the higher level technology given to the more elite formations (and political ones thanks to Palpatine). I don't see why the Marines getting SW tech should automaticaly get to pick from the upper echelons of SW technology while the ST equiped forces do not.

[omegaLancer]

Phasers set on full power have more then sufficent energy to kill a Stormie. In an earlier discussion talking about Delta Squad (Republic Commando) on the Enterprise-E, it was agreed that full power phaser rifle shots on an RC would do very bad things to the RC. Stormie armor is less advanced in areas of protection as compared to RC armor/shields. And do consider this. Stormtroopers are not the standard SW ground forces. They are the higher level technology given to the more elite formations (and political ones thanks to Palpatine). I don't see why the Marines getting SW tech should automaticaly get to pick from the upper echelons of SW technology while the ST equiped forces do not.

And what high level ST ground weapons do we have to pick from..We see no armor, personel force field that would even the playing field for the feddies.

We have seen that SW have buildt in targeting sight and that they can be link to the LCD display in storm trooper helment. We also see search droid assign to Storm trooper driod to aid in reconn..

Okay arm the marine with whatever passes for elite ground force equipment it won't make much of a different.

[Alyeska]

We know of personal defense shields as mentioned in both a TNG and a DS9 episode. We have nifty things like the TR-116 transporter sniper rifle. Some other nifty gadgets include site to site transporters.

[Darth Wong]

We know of personal defense shields as mentioned in both a TNG and a DS9 episode. We have nifty things like the TR-116 transporter sniper rifle. Some other nifty gadgets include site to site transporters.

Do you realize what kind of toy inventory the stormies can choose from if we decide to go outside standard kit?

Assuming standard kit, the fact that the stormies have sensor data built into their helmet HUD displays while the Feddies must walk around looking down at a tricorder while holding their phaser rifle in the other hand is no small advantage. Neither side has any support vehicles in this scenario so they're on their own, but phaser rifles must have limited ammo capacity at full power (otherwise there would be no intelligible reason for them to switch to lower-power semi-auto weapons when they went to a war footing), which means that stormies are probably going to have more ammo when firing lethal shots.

Not to mention the fact that stormies can still use stun if they want to take prisoners (in case this is one of those "we don't know where the other side is" scenarios), whereas Feddie stun will be useless through armour.

[Ender]

Ph And do consider this. Stormtroopers are not the standard SW ground forces. They are the higher level technology given to the more elite formations (and political ones thanks to Palpatine). I don't see why the Marines getting SW tech should automaticaly get to pick from the upper echelons of SW technology while the ST equiped forces do not.

I'm a bit confused here.

Yes, Stormtroopers are not the Imperial Army.

But Stormtroopers are the Imperial Marines. And Marines are pretty standard in ground combat.

We have some vague information indicates that while the Imperial Army have good stuff it is not as good as the Stormtrooper equipment, but this is because these groups are mostly local sector based forces, whereas the stormtroopers are galactic level. But that is not to say it is bad. Differences are things like the Army still uses juggernaughts heavily, while the Marines favor AT-ATs. There is not a huge gap here.

Now there is a decent gap between the elite stormtrooper spec op groups, and the local sector army forces. But no one is suggesting that the marines get Darktrooper armor here. We are talking the basic Imperial Marine loadout, which isn't that far above the basic army trooper loadout.

[omegaLancer]

another point is that storm trooper are basically marines and serve the basics purpose of redshirt. So it fair to compare the two typical weapon loads..

I yet to see any kind of armor or personal force field deployed by away teams...

[Alyeska]

The EU sources I've read put Stormies as a considerable military asset far more valuable then your basic Imperial Army trooper.

[Illuminatus Primus]

ISB says otherwise.

[Alyeska]

I assume thats Imperial Source Book. How does ISB rank compared to novels?

[Darth Wong]

There are millions upon millions of stormtroopers. To classify them all as some sort of "elite" units is fucking absurd.

[Alyeska]

When you consider how large the Empire is, millions upon millions of higher level infantry can easily exist.

[Darth Wong]

When you consider how large the Empire is, millions upon millions of higher level infantry can easily exist.

Higher than what? The people who do the fucking laundry?

The US Marines are higher than the motor pool people too, but that doesn't mean you would regard them as special "elite" units and therefore non-comparable to any other army's combat units.

[Alyeska]

I would hesitate to call them Elite. But I was thinking more along the lines as comparing them to Airborne troops today. Higher level training and better equiped, significantly fewer numbers then standard Army, but still numerous enough to be seen in most actions. Though now that I think about it, the Marine comparison does seem more valid. Today Airborne troops aren't used that frequently while the Marines are and are seen in most actions.

Anyway, as I asked earlier, how does the ISB rank compared to novels?

[Ender]

Anyway, as I asked earlier, how does the ISB rank compared to novels?

C level, same as EU novels.

[Adrian Laguna]

Stormtrooper Marines:
-HUD with target identification, aiming assist, IR, light amplification, and probably other sensors.
-Communications gear built into the helmet/
-Armour that provides considerably more protection than a red pajamma, and that doesn't hamper mobility in a significant way.
-Weapons show good refire rates, they are ergonomic and easy to aim.
-Concussion granades and/or thermal detonators.

Federation Marines:
-Tricorder, a person must look completely divert his attention from the field in order to use it.
-Communicators, not hands free and cannot be used while fighting.
-Red pajammas
-Weapon refiring rates not as good as Stormies, some weapons uncomfortable to use, hard to aim with them.
-No area-effect weapons such as granades.

[Adrian Laguna]

Not having an edit button is going to take some getting used to. In other forums I edit most of my posts at least once.

Conclusion: Stormies win. They have tactical advantages in sensors (a HUD is a great advantage), equipment ease of use, and firepower.

[Bounty]

-Tricorder, a person must look completely divert his attention from the field in order to use it.

Tricorders have audio warnings.

-Weapon refiring rates not as good as Stormies, some weapons uncomfortable to use, hard to aim with them.

What orifice are yo pulling this from ? Carr to back it up in any way ?

-No area-effect weapons such as granades.

Then what's this ?

[Ender]

-Tricorder, a person must look completely divert his attention from the field in order to use it.

Tricorders have audio warnings.

You still have to look at it to read what it is warning you about, so you did nothng to contradict his point.

-Weapon refiring rates not as good as Stormies, some weapons uncomfortable to use, hard to aim with them.

What orifice are yo pulling this from ? Carr to back it up in any way ?

Fire rates, we see constant full auto in ROTS, and semi auto in ANH. Phasers have not been observed to fire at the same or greater rates. As for the ergonomics, this is a tired old subject, simply look at the things. Any gun expert will tear into them for their poor design.

-No area-effect weapons such as granades.

Then what's this ?

How exactly does a mortar launcher show the existance of thrown hand grenades?

[Robert Walper]

Federation Marines:
-Tricorder, a person must look completely divert his attention from the field in order to use it.
-Communicators, not hands free and cannot be used while fighting.

If this was TNG era communicators, they most certainly are hands free. There's been frequent use of "open channels" with their communicatorsd as well.

-Red pajammas

In a hilly and wooded area (the OP scenario) I'd actually rather be wearing red than bright white.

-Weapon refiring rates not as good as Stormies, some weapons uncomfortable to use, hard to aim with them.
-No area-effect weapons such as granades.

Phasers have wide beam settings which I would think qualify as area affect weapons.