50 US Marines w/SW Equipment vs 50 US Marines w/ST Equipmen

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2005-05-29 07:00am

Robert Walper wrote:Phasers have wide beam settings which I would think qualify as area affect weapons.

Which would be useful in the task of flushing people out from behind cover... how?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2005-05-29 09:42am

Adrian Laguna wrote: -Weapon refiring rates not as good as Stormies, some weapons uncomfortable to use, hard to aim with them.

That's the dustbuster. This scenario is describing the TOS style phaser pistol, which is quite, comfortable to use, though it lacks sights, and essentially an automatic weapon, as the beam can be used continously and swept from side to side.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-05-29 10:25am

Robert Walper wrote:Phasers have wide beam settings which I would think qualify as area affect weapons.

How many fucking times do we have to point out that wide-beam is only good for stun and stun won't work through fully enclosed armour, asshole?

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2005-05-29 10:46am

Darth Wong wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:Phasers have wide beam settings which I would think qualify as area affect weapons.
How many fucking times do we have to point out that wide-beam is only good for stun and stun won't work through fully enclosed armour, asshole?

According to Federration personnel, wide beam can be used with higher, more destructive settings. I'm sure you disagree, so I won't bother arguing the point.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-05-29 11:11am

Robert Walper wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:Phasers have wide beam settings which I would think qualify as area affect weapons.
How many fucking times do we have to point out that wide-beam is only good for stun and stun won't work through fully enclosed armour, asshole?
According to Federration personnel, wide beam can be used with higher, more destructive settings. I'm sure you disagree, so I won't bother arguing the point.

You know perfectly well that this speculative dialogue interpretation bullshit has been raised before and shot down before, you lying little cunt. You back off whenever someone challenges you on it, only to bring it up AGAIN in the future when you hope nobody will notice, fucktard.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2005-05-29 11:18am

Darth Wong wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: How many fucking times do we have to point out that wide-beam is only good for stun and stun won't work through fully enclosed armour, asshole?
According to Federration personnel, wide beam can be used with higher, more destructive settings. I'm sure you disagree, so I won't bother arguing the point.
You know perfectly well that this speculative dialogue interpretation bullshit has been raised before and shot down before, you lying little cunt. You back off whenever someone challenges you on it, only to bring it up AGAIN in the future when you hope nobody will notice, fucktard.

I don't subscribe to the assertion that all Starfleet personnel comments on the capabilities of their weapons is bullshit or stupidity, Mike. You know my position on the subject, so why should I bother trying to defend it when I know all I'll accomplish is pissing you off?

You want to claim wide beam settings work only with stun, so be it. I won't argue with you about it.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-05-29 11:20am

Robert Walper wrote:I don't subscribe to the assertion that all Starfleet personnel comments on the capabilities of their weapons is bullshit or stupidity, Mike. You know my position on the subject, so why should I bother trying to defend it when I know all I'll accomplish is pissing you off?

There you go again, you strawmandering asshole. I never said that "all comments" are necessarily bullshit, but when you take someone's vaguely threatening remark and assume that it is a literal factual statement of capabilities, you ARE being a lying cunt. And this kind of gross misrepresentation is just another example of your blatant and pathological dishonesty, shithead.

You want to claim wide beam settings work only with stun, so be it. I won't argue with you about it.

That's because you will lose and you would prefer to pretend that you are only voluntarily backing down in order to avoid an argument, asshole. Your rhetorical bullshit is piled higher than the fucking Empire State Building.

montypython · Post by **montypython** » 2005-05-29 03:58pm

Didn't Admiral Leyton mention Photon Grenades in a DS9 episode?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-05-29 04:06pm

montypython wrote:Didn't Admiral Leyton mention Photon Grenades in a DS9 episode?

Yes. However, we know that they are not standard kit. Of course, we're talking about a military for which even helmets are not standard kit.

Trekdestroyer · Post by **Trekdestroyer** » 2005-05-29 04:24pm

I remember a similar scenario involving just the opposite of this one that I made. The obvious differance is that I used WWII equipment instead of modern equipment, but it's basicaly the same. I doubt the Feddies have a chance in this scenario IMHO.

dragon · Post by **dragon** » 2005-05-29 04:28pm

Hell look at the standard kit of today soldiers it already more then ST. But I think the Marines would do better with the SW equipment you wouldn't have the sit there wondering what setting to use. As Kira pointed out the Phaser is a lot more complicated and not as field rugged as other weapons.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2005-05-29 04:33pm

As Kira pointed out the Phaser is a lot more complicated and not as field rugged as other weapons.

Kira was talking about the TNG+ phaser rifles. The TOS Type II is a simple point-and-pull-trigger design, anyone can figure it out.

Trekdestroyer · Post by **Trekdestroyer** » 2005-05-29 04:35pm

Just a quick comment on the Widebeam setting/stun combo:
Alright, there is a reason why it is better in the long run to use stun when using widebeam. Widebeam takes more energy per shot than regular firing mode hence draining the energy cell faster(like someone cranking up the volume on a battery operated boombox). A widebeam stun is better because it takes less energy to stun someone than kill. That means that you can get off more shots than if you were using a widebeam kill.
Now, does that clear up any confusion?

dragon · Post by **dragon** » 2005-05-29 04:38pm

It most likely had a limited range as well.

Glimmervoid · Post by **Glimmervoid** » 2005-05-29 04:47pm

Dose the TOS phaser even have a wipe beam I don’t remember one.

dragon · Post by **dragon** » 2005-05-29 04:55pm

Glimmervoid wrote:Dose the TOS phaser even have a wipe beam I don’t remember one.

Only wide beam I rember from TOS was ship phasers but its been a while since I saw TOS

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-05-29 05:00pm

Do the math. Say you want to simulate a 5 metre grenade kill radius and you're 15 metres away. You need a beam spread of nearly 40 degrees, and the intensity at any given point (compared to a 0.5cm wide beam) would be reduced by a factor of 1 million.

Factor in the known high rate of energy loss for phaser beams (a stun beam is lethal at very close range but causes no permanent damage at only a couple of metres range) and the idea of winning battles with "wide-beam phaser" is quite obviously stupid.

dragon · Post by **dragon** » 2005-05-29 05:14pm

So wide beam is usefull for close range crowd control of unarmored people.

Found a couple of instance of wide beam in TOS

Also looks like they can fire wide beam as a set of pulses off axises

dragon · Post by **dragon** » 2005-05-29 05:19pm

Ok found where TNG phasers can be used on wide beam for higher settings

And the results.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-05-29 08:14pm

How is that any different from any other "phaser blast through rock" incident? You get the exact same size hole if you fire a pulse. And at that close range, I'm surprised they didn't get injured by fragments.

Penfold · Post by **Penfold** » 2005-05-29 10:38pm

Darth Wong wrote:How is that any different from any other "phaser blast through rock" incident? You get the exact same size hole if you fire a pulse. And at that close range, I'm surprised they didn't get injured by fragments.

I've seen these before. Dragon actually left out several of the middle frames, in which Sisko (God, I hope that's him in those blurry caps) appears to sweep the wall with the phaser, and the rock vanishes without exploding.

Also, that hole looks much larger than the one from TNG: "Chain of Command." In the TNG episode, a phaser at level-16 and narrow beam created a hole that Picard, Worf, and Crusher had to crawl through. In the DS9 episode, it looks like Sisko and... whoever... just have to step on through.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2005-05-29 11:02pm

Penfold wrote:Also, that hole looks much larger than the one from TNG: "Chain of Command." In the TNG episode, a phaser at level-16 and narrow beam created a hole that Picard, Worf, and Crusher had to crawl through. In the DS9 episode, it looks like Sisko and... whoever... just have to step on through.

In "Chain of Command," Worf cleared a loose jumble of rocks from a lava tube that was ALREADY THERE. In fact, they could see the other side THROUGH the rocks.

Also, don't forget this page here:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Hat ... abres.html

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2005-05-29 11:10pm

Another thing about wide-beam phasers; even set to overload, with the maximum energy release a phaser can generate, the resulting explosion is little more than the energy of a modern day hand grenade. So WTF would "wide-beam" phasers do?

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2005-05-29 11:57pm

Robert Walper wrote:
Federation Marines:
-Tricorder, a person must look completely divert his attention from the field in order to use it.
-Communicators, not hands free and cannot be used while fighting.
If this was TNG era communicators, they most certainly are hands free. There's been frequent use of "open channels" with their communicatorsd as well.

Stormies still have an advantage, the enemy cannot eavesdrop on their conversations.

-Red pajammas
In a hilly and wooded area (the OP scenario) I'd actually rather be wearing red than bright white.

Okay, red pajammas give better concealment, but no cover. I'll take the armour thank you.

Penfold · Post by **Penfold** » 2005-05-30 12:40am

Lord Poe wrote:In "Chain of Command," Worf cleared a loose jumble of rocks from a lava tube that was ALREADY THERE. In fact, they could see the other side THROUGH the rocks.

Well, it's been ages since I've seen the episode, and I seem to have forgotten a few details.

Also, don't forget this page here:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Hat ... abres.html

Oh, goody, a cap of the infamous wide-beam shot from "Cathexis." This is probably my desire to engage in hyperbole talking, but considering how wide that shot is, I wouldn't be surprised if the phaser had to be dialed up into the double digits just to stun everybody. Cranking it up all the way might be enough to kill somebody at close range, but something tells me that Harry Kim had a good chance of surviving that.