Women and ROTS

[Noble Ire]

I just saw ROTS for the third time today so now I'm more certain on the appearance of female Jedi (at least, Barris Offee).

Barris was on Kashyyyk. I recognized the hood/headdress she wears. Luminara was nowhere to be seen.

Actually, that was Luminara. I'm sure of it.
I still havent seen Barriss.

You are correct.

Indeed.

I also noticed from that update that there was a second EU character in the movie apparently, Salporin from the Trawn trilogy.

[Dark Hellion]

Something I was thinking of, isn't Palpatine a major female hater? Given that he had spent something like half a decade preparing the Republic to become his empire, wouldn't you say that the lack of females in high places is also a direct consequence of his success in swaying all aspects of life. He doesn't like females in the least, and the fact that we still see a large number of female (albiet unnamed) senators is not damning the movie of sexism, but the character of Palpatine (who was sexist as written).

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I never got the vibe or indication that Palpatine was sexist. Rather, the Empire itself was, or at least the Imperial military.

[Winston Blake]

Wasn't one of Palpatine's aides a alien woman? Bald and pale species, looked kinda like zhaan from farscape. There were also plenty of females in crowds and in the background and such.

Still, none really important except Padme, who would have been shown to be politically active and strong along with Mon Mothma. The sudden appearance of new, useless characters is one of the big problems with sequels nowadays (eg the Matrix), so i think Lucas couldn't have reasonably thrown in more female characters.

As for younglings, if they all have the same haircut and jedi robes conceal any breasts, how do we know there weren't girls? OTOH, the number of male characters and the overtly technological nature of SW lends credence to the theory that GL is in fact, a gay robot.

[Lord Revan]

Aren't the youngling all pre-teen or early teen so differences between male and female wouldn't be so distinct as in older Jedi (especially with the generic Padawan haircut).

[Noble Ire]

Wasn't one of Palpatine's aides a alien woman? Bald and pale species, looked kinda like zhaan from farscape.

Yup, Sly Moore, an Umbaraan. It has been suggested in the VD though that after Palpy's rise to power, she is executed.

[Lord Revan]

Wasn't one of Palpatine's aides a alien woman? Bald and pale species, looked kinda like zhaan from farscape.

Yup, Sly Moore, an Umbaraan. It has been suggested in the VD though that after Palpy's rise to power, she is executed.

which may or may not have anything to do with her gender or species.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I would assume that Mas Amedda would have been executed as well, simply because like Sly, he knows too much, probably more than she does.

[Utsanomiko]

With Moore's case, she probably tried to aquire more power/influence using what she knew about Palpatine.

It's could therefore be the case that Sidious realized that despite their help during the fall of the Republic, keeping around underlings that knew their Sith background and plot was too much of a liability, and made sure everyone else stayed ignorant of what their powers and schemes could entail.

[Noble Ire]

I would assume that Mas Amedda would have been executed as well, simply because like Sly, he knows too much, probably more than she does.

Of course, in the ROTS novelization, Palpatine actually saves Mas's life by telling him to flee before the Yoda duel. This raises interesting questions about just when Palpy became a zenophobe (perhaps fighting Yoda had something to do with it.)

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Or again that's something that more reflexive of the Empire itself rather than of Palpatine personally.

Just because Palpatine "saved" Amedda's life by telling him to leave doesn't mean that he didn't have him executed a few months or years down the line.

And chalking a xenophobia to one fight frankly strikes me as rediculous and petty.

[Noble Ire]

And chalking a xenophobia to one fight frankly strikes me as rediculous and petty.

Hey, I said perhaps, its not something I particualry believe.

Most likely, if Palpatine didnt directly stop it, any Moff or Admiral with Xenophobic inclenation could spread their prejudice easily, and if there were enough of them, then the Empire becomes anti-alien.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

And chalking a xenophobia to one fight frankly strikes me as rediculous and petty.

Hey, I said perhaps, its not something I particualry believe.

Blah, the dartboard method sucks.

[Jason von Evil]

Ki-Adi-Mundi didn't have a chance to fight. He only had enough time to turn and look before being blasted. Aayla didn't have a chance to fight back because her troopers were no more than a few feet away.

I'd imagine that Padme didn't want to endanger her unborn baby by trotting off to some battlefield. What did your friend want, Stravo? Padme to go to Utapu and fight Grievous with her bare hands? She stayed at home because one, Anakin was on Coruscant and since they hadn't seen each other in a long time. It would certainly be shitty if she just upped and left. Second, someone correct me on this, but travel for civilians might have been a bit hard, since a battle had just taken place at Coruscant not too long ago.

[Imperial Overlord]

It isn't just ROTS. Male characters greatly outnumber female characters in all the Star Wars movies. There isn't one lightsabering wielding female in anything like a leading role. Padme is the only leading female character of the PT and Leia is the only leading female character of the OT. As much as I dislike some aspects of the EU, one of the good things about it is the greater number of female protagonists.

[Stofsk]

So I ask you, what are your views of the lack of women in the ROTS and frankly the prequels in general.

'And frankly the entire saga in general' is what you meant to write, I'm sure. Princess Leia is the only main female character in the OT.

Despite whatever the latest fem-nazis have to say, there are many areas where women are inferior to men, and war is one of them. They're weaker, have poorer reflexes on average and their presence can have the effect of distracting their male comrades from their primary task.

Being weaker and having poorer reflexes don't matter at all, since both can be increased and strengthened through repetition. It's the 'distracting male comrades' part that is the real problem, but if the men of the unit are brought up to consider women as equals (which is what feminism strives to emphasise) then this may not be an insurmountable problem.

So no, I wouldn't consider women to be inferior to men even if you consider war in the equation. There are plenty of different jobs in the military, and if the soldier in question can keep up with her male colleagues then good for her.

After all, if you were in the Clone Trooper squad that the sexy blue-skinned Twi'lek jedi was in, would you honestly not be focussing some of your attention on her arse?

Since they blasted her in the back repeatedly, I don't think they really cared if her arse was cute.

It isn't just ROTS. Male characters greatly outnumber female characters in all the Star Wars movies. There isn't one lightsabering wielding female in anything like a leading role. Padme is the only leading female character of the PT and Leia is the only leading female character of the OT. As much as I dislike some aspects of the EU, one of the good things about it is the greater number of female protagonists.

Even the EU doesn't have an 'equal' proportion from what I recall.

That said: it doesn't have to. The SW films generally depict women as strong and capable people in their own right, and there isn't any real need to increase the number of female characters to 'equalise' the gender balance. The only part that matters is having strong characters, whether they're male or female doesn't matter.

[Cykeisme]

Barriss was on Felucia when she was killed... she was blown to pieces by a volley of cannon shots from an AT-TE.
The scene isn't in the final cut. DVD extra someday, maybe?

Since they blasted her in the back repeatedly, I don't think they really cared if her arse was cute.

Hah. Loyalty to the Republic may overwhelm all, but I'll bet they were kicking themselves for nights to come.

[Lusankya]

Aren't the youngling all pre-teen or early teen so differences between male and female wouldn't be so distinct as in older Jedi (especially with the generic Padawan haircut).

The female Padawans could also have been trained seperately. Perhaps something to do with the Jedi not wanting the Padawans to get too used to emotion. Imagine trying to control the emotions of a couple of score of mixed-sex teenagers as they were all hitting puberty.

Being weaker and having poorer reflexes don't matter at all, since both can be increased and strengthened through repetition.

Not to the same extent that a man's reflexes can be trained to. Yes, a well-trained woman can beat a poorly-trained man, however a well-trained man is more likely to win than a well-trained woman. In the end, the final product is limited by the strength of the materials, and in physical aspects, women are inferior to men.

Women's sport shows this very well. If you watch professional sport, theer are very few sports in which women can realistically compete on an even footing with men. These sports would include diving and pool. Even taking into account the differences in training and opportunity given to men, the men are still stronger. Tennis and golf are two sports in which, while the men earn money, the women still get enough to use the sport as their sole income, and in both of these the top men can still easily outclass the top women; this is not because the women lack the training or skill to compete to their full potential, but is because women are fundamentally physically weaker than men.

Even in shooting, which could be considered to be a non-active sport, women are generally not as good as men because their depth perception is not as good (male eyes are more frontal so the man can be a better hunter; womens eyes are farther to the sides, giving women a wider range of vision, but less accurate depth perception).

It's the 'distracting male comrades' part that is the real problem, but if the men of the unit are brought up to consider women as equals (which is what feminism strives to emphasise) then this may not be an insurmountable problem.

It's not necessarily a matter of considering women to be equals - men are biologically wired to consider women to be "childbearers" and this cannot be completely suppressed by society. I consider women to be the intellectual equals of men, however I do not consider them to be the physical equals of men, mainly because they aren't.

Speaking of biology, taking women along to wars also involves a logistical challenge. Perhaps in the SW galaxy, women all have something implanted in them so they don't have periods, but if they don't things could get messy so to speak. Despite what some people (people unrelated to you) may think, women can't control their menstrual cycle, and various changes may set it off. Some women will go overseas for a year and not have a period for three months because of the change. Others will go overseas for three weeks and have heavy bleeding for half that time because of the change. Then consider that there's probably a different number of women in each group, and that if women stay are close enough to each other for a period of time then (or so I've heard) their menstrual cycles change so that they all coincide with each other....

So no, I wouldn't consider women to be inferior to men even if you consider war in the equation. There are plenty of different jobs in the military, and if the soldier in question can keep up with her male colleagues then good for her.

I never said women were intrinsically inferior to men. I said they were inferior to men in some areas - which are generally physical ares. Yes, there are many different jobs in the military, however Star Wars mainly portrays the front-line fighting roles, which are the ones that women are less likely to be in because women are not as effective in those particular roles. (I'd like to say that it's because women are smart enough to stay home and let the men get killed instead of them, but that's just trite.)

Since they blasted her in the back repeatedly, I don't think they really cared if her arse was cute.

I was using it as an example of a distraction. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough. Remember though that codie didn't seem to care that Obi-Wan was his friend and comrade either, nor did any of the other clones care that they's been fighting alongside the Jedi they were killing just moments before they shot them. From this one might gather that the clones attitudes towards the Jedi they were with before Order 66 was executed and the attitudes towards the Jedi were with after Order 66 was execute d are independent.

Or one might not, because as we all know, a cute arse can save you from anything, just so long as it has a libido.

Something I was thinking of, isn't Palpatine a major female hater? Given that he had spent something like half a decade preparing the Republic to become his empire, wouldn't you say that the lack of females in high places is also a direct consequence of his success in swaying all aspects of life. He doesn't like females in the least, and the fact that we still see a large number of female (albiet unnamed) senators is not damning the movie of sexism, but the character of Palpatine (who was sexist as written).

I always figured that if that prejudice did exist in the Empire (remember, we do only have the Rebels word for it, and they may have mistaken being oppressed for being a Rebel for being oppressed for being a woman or an alien), then it was mainly because Palpatine wanted to keep as much of the Empire's population poorly-educated as possible - so he encouraged people to scare aliens out of the good schools (because they're the ones responsible for all your problems; not me) and to keep their daughters at home where they could learn to become good housekeepers, after which they could come out and breed more storm troopers for the storm trooper farms.

I know that Intelligence does not automatically equate to not being sexist, but Palpatine would have what? A 20 int minimum and at least a 22 in Wisdom. That's high enough that he wouldn't cut out the services of such a large proportion of the Empire's population unless he saw some benefit to it, and I imagine the benefit to increasing racism and sexism would be to make the human males, who occupy most of the important positions in the Empire, enjoy the way that they're on top of almost everything in the Imperial system.

That's just my take on the matter in any case. It could just be something I made up in my mind because Palpatine is cool. I've been known to do that before. Given that in FFX-2 I chose who I sided with by who had the cutest leader, this can be rather arbitrary.

[Lord Revan]

The female Padawans could also have been trained seperately. Perhaps something to do with the Jedi not wanting the Padawans to get too used to emotion. Imagine trying to control the emotions of a couple of score of mixed-sex teenagers as they were all hitting puberty.

well at that time most Jedi Padawan are with specific master (they're chosen at 13), but in "Jedi Trial" Anakin encounter couple of mix-sex teen Padawan in the Jedi temple.

as for the rest, what fem-nazis don't realize is "equal, but different" consept. the fact that in general Women tend to be physically weaker and smalller then men (women over 180 cm are considered really tall, but I'm 192 cm and considered normal), but this doesn't mean that they're any less equal, women just tend to better at different things then men.

[Stofsk]

Being weaker and having poorer reflexes don't matter at all, since both can be increased and strengthened through repetition.

Not to the same extent that a man's reflexes can be trained to. Yes, a well-trained woman can beat a poorly-trained man, however a well-trained man is more likely to win than a well-trained woman. In the end, the final product is limited by the strength of the materials, and in physical aspects, women are inferior to men.

While true, I don't think it's enough to disqualify a woman from being a grunt, though one of the Mess members will be able to give a more informed opinion on that. I do know that IRL the physical demands of special forces training is enough to disqualify women from that, but really special forces training lets in very few candidates per year anyway.

Even in shooting, which could be considered to be a non-active sport, women are generally not as good as men because their depth perception is not as good (male eyes are more frontal so the man can be a better hunter; womens eyes are farther to the sides, giving women a wider range of vision, but less accurate depth perception).

This is something I am not able to speak on, so I'll defer to your knowledge.

I never said women were intrinsically inferior to men. I said they were inferior to men in some areas - which are generally physical ares.

Thanks for the clarification.

Yes, there are many different jobs in the military, however Star Wars mainly portrays the front-line fighting roles, which are the ones that women are less likely to be in because women are not as effective in those particular roles.

That said, there is a female soldier in the Rebel command center on Hoth, while the Naboo starfighter corps has at least one female pilot IIRC, not to mention Queen Amidala's handmaidens who are well trained enough to handle a blaster in a pinch.

The 'criticism' of SW and its lacking female characters is one I find spurious, but that's an issue I'd take up with Stravo's friend. At the very least the female central characters are strong ones, while there are numerous examples in the background of women professionals.

Or one might not, because as we all know, a cute arse can save you from anything, just so long as it has a libido.

Uh, right.

Anyway, I knew what you meant in regards to distraction. However, given their actions in regards to Aayla Secura, as well as all the other Jedi, it is clear that the Clones have either some kind of compulsion when Order 66 is meant to be carried out, or they have an insane degree of professionalism - probably both. (they'd have to be professional anyway, since they were bred to fight - and if they're highly professional, then chances are they're not going to be distracted by a cute arse)

[Lord Revan]

the Clones (even ARCs) have indeed insane degree professionalism (up to a point that they don't even know what to do with good looking female when see one, but do know every rules in the GAR manual by heart).

[Crom]

the Clones (even ARCs) have indeed insane degree professionalism (up to a point that they don't even know what to do with good looking female when see one, but do know every rules in the GAR manual by heart).

Not entirely true, an ARC-trooper ended up staying with a woman in Steven Barnes' Cestus Deception. Of course you could argue a number of factors, the least of which being he was an ARC-trooper personally trained by Jango Fett.

That particular ARC-trooper never brought up the issue of accelerated aging so I wonder if ARC-troopers don't suffer from that.

[Master of Ossus]

I got yelled at by a female friend for watching MI5, since the lead actor in that one is a man, instead of Alias because that show has a lead who's a woman. People are just petty and stupid about this sort of thing.

[Stofsk]

I got yelled at by a female friend for watching MI5, since the lead actor in that one is a man, instead of Alias because that show has a lead who's a woman. People are just petty and stupid about this sort of thing.

It's called Spooks, man!

That said, I have a friend who considers Alias to be a good show. Spy shit, great stuff all-around.

[Lord Revan]

Not entirely true, an ARC-trooper ended up staying with a woman in Steven Barnes' Cestus Deception. Of course you could argue a number of factors, the least of which being he was an ARC-trooper personally trained by Jango Fett.

That particular ARC-trooper never brought up the issue of accelerated aging so I wonder if ARC-troopers don't suffer from that.

if you recall Nate's "pick-up" lines were even worse then Anakin's in AOTC, sure he ended up with a woman in but that more due to fact that she was Jango's old flame then anything A-98 did. As for the aging bit, perhaps it's a taboo among the Clones