How would you reform America's education system?

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Junghalli
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Post by Junghalli »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:British society hasn't collapsed, the last time I checked.
Well, I'm hardly an expert on the British education system, but as far as I know boarding schools are generally something for the wealthy. Most children live with their parents, just like here. I could be wrong though.
How does one evaluate "emotional health", anyway? It's highly subjective. We know of many people who, going through boarding schools, come out to go on to very productive and successful lives, on the other hand.
OK, good point about emotional health being subjective. But I'm still highly distrustful of a state solution.
And this doesn't happen already? I didn't know that boarding schools had an extra "Brainwashing 101" every day.
The traditional system, at least in my country, is to have schools teach math, English, history etc. and leave morality and lifeskills more to the parents.
Your whole justification for this are that parents are half the problem, so the state needs to step in and take over from them. The state teaching morality is IMO a horrible idea and completely against the whole principle of a democratic, pluralistic society.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Junghalli wrote: That's not really what bothers me. What bothers me is that you're saying the government should teach children about morality and how they should live their lives. In other words, you have a problem with parents indoctrinating their children, and your solution is to pull them into a state-run system and have the state indoctrinate them in the official line of the society instead.
The fact that this is completely anethema to the idea of a pluralistic society doesn't bother you?
The children would be relatively free to do what they want outside of completing their studies; again, there's no indoctrination as such going on here. You get up at a certain time of day, shower, eat, go to classes, PE, whatever; then you go back to your dorm or some meeting halls and some arranged activities. Maybe you watch TV in a common room or check out a book from the library. Nobody is going to be there lecturing you in morality. The staff would enforce the rules and provide assistance for those emotionally in need. Unless you think that parents have the right to teach their children to break the law, this should not be a problem.

Note that most boarding schools do not, to my knowledge, take children at any age when they are incapable of functioning independently to a reasonable degree. Most children at age 9 or 10 are not irretrievably homophobic racist YEC bigots, but they have already been imprinted with important concepts of life. On the other hand, if that process was faulty in their previous childhood, it's not to late at that point to rectify it, either.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Junghalli wrote: Well, I'm hardly an expert on the British education system, but as far as I know boarding schools are generally something for the wealthy. Most children live with their parents, just like here. I could be wrong though.
There are about ~150,000 students in boarding schools in the UK--ages 13-18. "Junior boarding schools" is the term used to refer to students younger than age 13 in boarding schools, which are much more rare.
The traditional system, at least in my country, is to have schools teach math, English, history etc. and leave morality and lifeskills more to the parents.
Your whole justification for this are that parents are half the problem, so the state needs to step in and take over from them. The state teaching morality is IMO a horrible idea and completely against the whole principle of a democratic, pluralistic society.
What is morality? Why should it be taught at all? Why shouldn't children have the right to develop their own thoughts on the subject? Is it important that children be taught morality? The boarding schools will teach them how to function in society, which is really the only objective criteria for morality possible. Many people who large segments of the population would consider amoral or immoral have repeatedly proven themselves perfectly capable of functioning in society and having successful, productive lives.
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Post by Junghalli »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:The children would be relatively free to do what they want outside of completing their studies; again, there's no indoctrination as such going on here. You get up at a certain time of day, shower, eat, go to classes, PE, whatever; then you go back to your dorm or some meeting halls and some arranged activities. Maybe you watch TV in a common room or check out a book from the library. Nobody is going to be there lecturing you in morality. The staff would enforce the rules and provide assistance for those emotionally in need. Unless you think that parents have the right to teach their children to break the law, this should not be a problem.
OK, tell me how this is really so different from what we have now? You said parents were half the problem. I presumed you were talking about stuff like creationist nutjobs telling their kids that God made the world in six days and not to listen to teh Evaal ev1lo0t10n (at any rate, refusing to acknowledge the concept of evolution would get you an F anyway, based on my experience). Aside from this the only benefit I can see to your concept is that you enforce study time, which could more easily and cheaply be taken care of by just lengthening the school day.
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Post by RedImperator »

Marina, what's to stop the next administration from mandating an absolutely wretched cirriculum nationwide? Your ideas have merit, but I don't see anything that would stop a "progressive education" ninny from eliminating grades because they hurt self-esteem, or a Christian fundamentalist from taking evolution out of the biology cirriculum.
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

There is a solution to the "What about the next person to hold the office?" aspect of this.

Set up a system akin to those of University Courts here, whereby any major decisions have to be passed by a group of people selected for academic excellence. Changes to the physics cirriculum would have to be passed by a group of physicists etc...
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Post by Junghalli »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:There are about ~150,000 students in boarding schools in the UK--ages 13-18.
This is out of a country which I believe has tens of millions of citizens (don't know the exact number). 150,000 isn't really all that terribly much.
What is morality? Why should it be taught at all? Why shouldn't children have the right to develop their own thoughts on the subject?
I agree. I just don't see how Palpatine-style reforms to the education system are going to help that along.
Is it important that children be taught morality? The boarding schools will teach them how to function in society, which is really the only objective criteria for morality possible.
(1)Just going off my own middle school and high school teachers and professors they are rarely all that hesitant to sling their own political ideologies in their student's faces. In fact, the more extreme ones seem to think they have some sort of duty to do their best to turn their students into good little tolerant liberals with all the correct sets of beliefs and principles (well, what do you expect of a school system that makes fucking ethnic studies a required course). I can't help imagining much the same scenario being played out with your boarding schools, only the students will have a much more restricted and controlled access to viewpoints the teachers and faculty (and by extension the state) don't consider politically correct. You start to see the problem here?
(2)It should not be the government's job to teach people to function in society. That's the job of the parents. Judging by the fact that our society does continue to function they are performing an adequate job. Why not just let things be? Why is a statist solution preferable?
Also, as Red Imperator pointed out, statist solutions may start out well intentioned but gawd do they ever lend themselves to subvertion and abuse.
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Post by Zero »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: What is morality? Why should it be taught at all? Why shouldn't children have the right to develop their own thoughts on the subject? Is it important that children be taught morality? The boarding schools will teach them how to function in society, which is really the only objective criteria for morality possible. Many people who large segments of the population would consider amoral or immoral have repeatedly proven themselves perfectly capable of functioning in society and having successful, productive lives.
Morality is essentially whatever rules and restrictions we place on ourselves when dealing with other human beings. Often, these seem to be adopted by some only for the sake of propriety. We call these people ass holes. Typically, the kinds of people that are amoral or immoral ass holes but are still productive do so quite well because they don't specifically care about the consequences their actions have for others. If you have an entire generation of amoral people, then they may each individually do well in the society, but the society itself will fall into a bit of a decline. Besides, people that truly have no morals will break any law, if they believe that they can get away with it. I simply don't believe that an entire generation of amoral people could create a functioning society. I'm not saying that all people lacking moral guidance would become amoral, but I certainly doubt lacking such guidance is good, or in any way better at developing your own code of interaction between yourself and others.
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Post by Broomstick »

Aside from previously mentioned suggestions, I have two other major qualms about Duchess' "solution"

First, it presupposes that human nature can be changed through educaiton and indoctrination. The only other major societal systems that hold to that, that I am aware of, are the communism/socialism ones. Although displaying some short-term viability, long term such systems do not seem to prosper

Secondly, she seems to take the position that there is One Right True Way and that dissenting world views are to be elminated. Perhaps not by force, but apparently by eliminating them from education. My own position is that if one is not free to make wrong decisions, one is not free at all. Since innovation comes as frequently, if not more so, from the fringes, crazies, and dissenters I think subjecting everyone to a wholly uniform educational machine would cause a long-term diminishing of such innovation.
The Duchess of Zeon wrote: The children would be relatively free to do what they want outside of completing their studies; again, there's no indoctrination as such going on here. You get up at a certain time of day, shower, eat, go to classes, PE, whatever; then you go back to your dorm or some meeting halls and some arranged activities. Maybe you watch TV in a common room or check out a book from the library. Nobody is going to be there lecturing you in morality. The staff would enforce the rules and provide assistance for those emotionally in need. Unless you think that parents have the right to teach their children to break the law, this should not be a problem.
Yes, it is a problem - how regimentated is this? Must children get up at the same time every day, or are they ever allowed to sleep in? Must one shower before eating, or could one chose to shower after eating? Must one shower in the morning - is evening showering an option? I don't know about you, but those were items that in my own family's setting were negotiable at very young ages. If a child prefers to eat first then shower, or shower then eat, most families are accomodating. In fact, most families would probably encourage such diversity in order to prevent traffic jams in the bathroom(s).

You assume arranged, formal activities after studies - why? Don't children have time for self-directed play and interests? Isn't deciding what to do with one's time an important part of learning to make decisions? What if a child doesn't want to read or watch TV - maybe the kid wants to skate board or paint or some entirely different.... in a family there can be much greater latitude for children choosing a direction (which is then subject to appropriate parental supervision) than in such a regimentated set up as you propose. In order to save the children with the most impoverished home environments you will deprieve those children with better than average intellectual stimulation at home of their environment and drag them into a much inferior situation. I question if there is truly a net gain.

And how will you deal with bullying? A home and family becomes a refuge for children who are victims of this - in a boarding school they will never be free of their tormenters. What an unmitigated hell that would be!
I simply don't think that even the best education system in the world would do one whit of good if the kids were still coming home each and every night to parents who told them that everything they heard at school was a lie, and that is what a very large number of parents will be doing if you reform the school system in the way the majority of you want it reformed, and in fact what a large number of them already do.
And why do you assume that children believe everything they were told by their parents?

The Amish, as just one example, have a pretty good indoctrination system - they have their own separate school system, and they restrict access to external influence not only through the ban on TV, radio, and phones but also through a language barrier, clothing and customs. Yet they lose 1 out of every 4 children to the wider world around them. I'm pretty sure the percentage of people in the mainstream world who reject large portions of their family indoctrination is considerably higher than that. For that matter, quite a few are going to reject the indoctrination presented in your solution.
I see nothing totalitarian in boarding schools
As they presently are, there isn't - but that's because they're VOLUNTARY. Under your system, they would not be.
Furthermore, sensible diet and exercise regimens could be instilled in children from a young age in such circumstances, which might result in considerable economic savings from reduced healthcare costs later in life.
What about children with special needs? Kids who need restricted or limited diets? How accomodating will your system be? In a family there is much closer supervision of children, offending food stuffs can simply not be brought into the home, and so forth.

What about children who need medications? Ask any parent with an asthmatic child, or a diabetic child, or any children needing regular, daily medication what a nightmare it is to get ANY school system to cooperate in the dosing scheduled need for the particular child rather than trying to shoe-horn their biology into time slots convenient for the bureaucracy. Do you think this will somehow become less a problem?

I think compulsory boarding schools is a horrible solution on so many levels. Because it's compulsory, it's essentially stealing kids from their parents to make them servants of the state.
but that doesn't change the fact that now that they are the way they are, you cannot change them...
That's pretty fucking insulting to everyone who has ever managed to make a better life for him or herself. People CAN change. People do change.

Of course, I also have to ask why you feel a particular person MUST change to accomodate YOUR wishes, but that's getting a little off topic.
Anyway, much more peer contact is more likely to help people in the long run than contact with their family, since it prepares them more for the social settings they will face as adults.
Only if we continue to segragate people by age once the are adult. Only if we never expose them to people with differing backgrounds and viewpoints.

My peers - whether considered as those I work with or those I choose to associate with socially - are not restricted to those within one or two years of my age.
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Post by aerius »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I would institute a national boarding school system and eliminate the summer break and replace it with evenly spaced breaks throughout the year, while simultaneously bringing in experts from Singapore and Korea to comprehensively design a new standardized national curriculum. Nothing short of that is going to have any noticeable impact at all.
If the curriculum you're aiming for is a hybrid of our North American system and the systems many Asian countries have, that would be a good thing. Solid fundamentals which we lack in maths & sciences combined with creativity and thinking outside the box.

If you're going for the Asian system then I think there's gonna be issues in the long term. My family has contact with a lot of immigrants from Taiwan as well as a few from Hong Kong and Korea. Quite a few of them have kids who left their home country around middle to high school age. There's no doubt that their maths & sciences are dead solid, almost all of them score 90's in math & science classes, and their high school math level is about the same as our 1st or 2nd year University level.

However when they're generally not as good as problem solvers, they tend to keep grinding away at the problem the same way and solve them through sheer effort. They're not as good at taking a step back, looking at it again, seeing how the pieces fit and working out a solution from there. We tend to have a better ability to creatively and intuitively solve problems, while they're better at crunching the numbers and grinding it out.
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Post by Ender »

I'd return almost all of the power to the states, except textbook decisions.

Then I'd set up something similar to what singapore is doing : I'd offer incredible amounts of freedom, funding, and equipment to scientists, mathamaticians, archeologists, engineers, etc. The conditions would be as follows - They would have to assist in any crisis that comes up (eg the biologists would have to work on a cure for a plague if one turned up, the aerospace scientists/engineers would have to work if we had another apollo 13 type disaster), and they would have to act as consultants on the textbook creation to help bring the future generations up to speed.
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Post by Alliance SpecForceTrooper »

Hmmm....

anyone see anything in the US Constitution that actually allows for a Department of Education? I could be mistaken, but this seems to be a clear violation of the 10th Amendment.
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Post by Darth Wong »

On improving schools through competition with vouchers: that particular theory sounds better when you have no experience as a parent. The fact is that there are only so many schools in any geographical area, it's very difficult for parents to send a kid to a school too far away from home, and there are no accepted ways to determine how good a school is anyway. It's not like shopping around for the best price on a hard drive; how are you supposed to walk into a school and determine how good it is? Send your kid there? That's a test which takes months in order to return meaningful results, and by then you have already fucked up your kid's school year.

How many times should you experiment with bad schools and shuttle your kid around town looking for a good one, without even knowing how to grade a school anyway? Each time you try one, poof! There's another year of your child's life and schooling down the drain.

No, the competition model only sounds good; it will not significantly improve the school system. The requirements for competition to work well are portability (the customer must be able to freely move from one supplier to the next) and awareness (the customer must have some way of determining which product is the best before purchasing it). Neither condition is particularly applicable to public schooling, so the competition model is not very applicable either.

If I had to make one change to improve school systems nationwide, it would be to pass a federal law banning guaranteed job security for teachers. Teacher unions blackmail every district into giving these kinds of guarantees to them, but no child should suffer through a substandard education because some old hack teacher's job is guaranteed with an ironclad collective bargaining agreement no matter how shitty he is. And the arrogance I've seen from some teachers when dealing with parents is all too indicative of people who know that their job security is written in stone.
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Alliance SpecForceTrooper wrote:Hmmm....

anyone see anything in the US Constitution that actually allows for a Department of Education? I could be mistaken, but this seems to be a clear violation of the 10th Amendment.
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Post by wolveraptor »

Forcing children into boarding schools? This isn't Nazi Germany, where you have to join Hitler's Youth or some such shit. Your premise for mandatory boarding schools is flawed, because you assume that each and every parent in this country is prohibitive to schooling. That's wrong. In fact, contrasting views between parent and teacher might force the student to reason things out for himself/herself, which is far better than blindly parroting what ever mom/dad/teacher says. Think about this: A young nine-year-old child is told by mom/dad that the world is 6000 years old, etc., but the teacher says that it's 4.5 billion years old. He tells the teacher something like, "My mom/dad told me that *insert idiocy here*", and the teacher would explain to the child why the parents are wrong, encouraging discussion, and so on. Sure, it'd be removing a lot of parental authority, but frankly, if your parents are that jackassed, that's a good thing.

Of course, for the teacher to spend that much time with a child, we need drastically reduced classes, and more teachers. Disbanding teacher unions, while improving the quality of teachers, would also lessen their numbers. Judging which is more important is difficult.
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Post by Drunk Monkey »

Darth Wong wrote:On improving schools through competition with vouchers: that particular theory sounds better when you have no experience as a parent. The fact is that there are only so many schools in any geographical area, it's very difficult for parents to send a kid to a school too far away from home, and there are no accepted ways to determine how good a school is anyway. It's not like shopping around for the best price on a hard drive; how are you supposed to walk into a school and determine how good it is? Send your kid there? That's a test which takes months in order to return meaningful results, and by then you have already fucked up your kid's school year.

How many times should you experiment with bad schools and shuttle your kid around town looking for a good one, without even knowing how to grade a school anyway? Each time you try one, poof! There's another year of your child's life and schooling down the drain.

No, the competition model only sounds good; it will not significantly improve the school system. The requirements for competition to work well are portability (the customer must be able to freely move from one supplier to the next) and awareness (the customer must have some way of determining which product is the best before purchasing it). Neither condition is particularly applicable to public schooling, so the competition model is not very applicable either.

If I had to make one change to improve school systems nationwide, it would be to pass a federal law banning guaranteed job security for teachers. Teacher unions blackmail every district into giving these kinds of guarantees to them, but no child should suffer through a substandard education because some old hack teacher's job is guaranteed with an ironclad collective bargaining agreement no matter how shitty he is. And the arrogance I've seen from some teachers when dealing with parents is all too indicative of people who know that their job security is written in stone.
It amazes me how these fuckers got a degree in the first place. My one math teacher couldn’t even add well let alone teach algebra. What we need is some way to grade schools similar to meat,
Grade A: perfect school
Grade B: Decant school
Grade C: average School
Grade D: Sub-average school
Grade F: School that doesn’t function properly
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Post by Uraniun235 »

Alliance SpecForceTrooper wrote:Hmmm....

anyone see anything in the US Constitution that actually allows for a Department of Education? I could be mistaken, but this seems to be a clear violation of the 10th Amendment.
The Constitution has since been reinterpreted to give Congress any powers it wants that are not explicitly denied to them. Yee-haw.
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Post by wolveraptor »

The current system for grading schools is based on the performance of students. Do y'all here at SD.N think this is accurate enough, or could you suggest some better alternatives.
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Post by wolveraptor »

Uraniun235 wrote:
Alliance SpecForceTrooper wrote:Hmmm....

anyone see anything in the US Constitution that actually allows for a Department of Education? I could be mistaken, but this seems to be a clear violation of the 10th Amendment.
The Constitution has since been reinterpreted to give Congress any powers it wants that are not explicitly denied to them. Yee-haw.
So, could Congress enact a law in which the President is forced to hump monkeys from 12 to 3 on Mondays while wearing only a leather-fetish costume polka dotted green and yellow?
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Post by Uraniun235 »

wolveraptor wrote: The Constitution has since been reinterpreted to give Congress any powers it wants that are not explicitly denied to them. Yee-haw.
So, could Congress enact a law in which the President is forced to hump monkeys from 12 to 3 on Mondays while wearing only a leather-fetish costume polka dotted green and yellow?[/quote]
If they worded it right, they probably could, although there's the issue of beastiality being illegal.

But then, the President might well decide to ignore it like he does the War Powers Act.
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Post by wolveraptor »

It's illegal? Then how could that Alan Horsely (heh heh) ever run for any office? He humped a mule when he was a teenager? :lol: :lol:
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Post by Junghalli »

aerius wrote:However when they're generally not as good as problem solvers, they tend to keep grinding away at the problem the same way and solve them through sheer effort. They're not as good at taking a step back, looking at it again, seeing how the pieces fit and working out a solution from there. We tend to have a better ability to creatively and intuitively solve problems, while they're better at crunching the numbers and grinding it out.
I've heard it repeatedly pointed out that generally Asian countries (China usually is the example) tend to be very good at copying the products of others and producing them cheaply and efficiently, but not so good at independent innovation. Figure this might have anything to do with it?
Darth Wong wrote:If I had to make one change to improve school systems nationwide, it would be to pass a federal law banning guaranteed job security for teachers.
Oh hell yes! Nothing inspires people to get off their fat lazy asses and work quite like the knowledge that if they don't the hurt will be put on them. Basic human nature.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Junghalli wrote:
aerius wrote:However when they're generally not as good as problem solvers, they tend to keep grinding away at the problem the same way and solve them through sheer effort. They're not as good at taking a step back, looking at it again, seeing how the pieces fit and working out a solution from there. We tend to have a better ability to creatively and intuitively solve problems, while they're better at crunching the numbers and grinding it out.
I've heard it repeatedly pointed out that generally Asian countries (China usually is the example) tend to be very good at copying the products of others and producing them cheaply and efficiently, but not so good at independent innovation. Figure this might have anything to do with it?
I would be very wary of this kind of anecdotal "evidence". The fact is that the Japanese have made huge innovations in various areas, particularly in the area of manufacturing technology and production engineering, where they lead the world.
Darth Wong wrote:If I had to make one change to improve school systems nationwide, it would be to pass a federal law banning guaranteed job security for teachers.
Oh hell yes! Nothing inspires people to get off their fat lazy asses and work quite like the knowledge that if they don't the hurt will be put on them. Basic human nature.
Oh yes. It also fits with the "poison pill theory". The poison pill is a guy with a bad attitude who slacks on the job, grouses about his pay and work requirements, and generally spreads a negative attitude around the office. Eventually, he will drag others down to his level because he refuses to pull his weight, and others will start slacking off too because it's not fair that they should work extra hard to cover for him. In an office without ironclad job security, the solution to the poison pill is simple: you fire his worthless ass. But with ironclad job security, guess what: there's no way to get that fucker out of there.
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HemlockGrey
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Post by HemlockGrey »

I would be very wary of this kind of anecdotal "evidence". The fact is that the Japanese have made huge innovations in various areas, particularly in the area of manufacturing technology and production engineering, where they lead the world.
"Asians make knockoffs" is not a valid statement, but "China makes knockoffs" is not unreasonable, primarily because there is 0 patent protection in China, so most of its would-be innovators are going to emigrate rather than come up with an idea and have it ripped off by the guy down the street.
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wolveraptor
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Post by wolveraptor »

I would be very wary of this kind of anecdotal "evidence". The fact is that the Japanese have made huge innovations in various areas, particularly in the area of manufacturing technology and production engineering, where they lead the world.
Dude, you didn't even mention video games. What the fuck is wrong with you? :P Japan dominates EVERYONE in video games, whether it be old school classics such as Mario, or new games like...oh any random, faceless combat game off the shelf.
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