Split from ROTS Revelations

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2005-05-30 03:24pm

LordOskuro wrote:-Grievious: Apparently he had a secondary air supply of sorts in his cyber-body, also, whatever species he was from, his eyes seemed quite resilient (Exposed to hard vaccum, a living body will survive as long as it has an air supply, but any liquids will instantly boil and evaporate due to the lower pressure, thus indicating that Grievious' eyes can work properly even when dried up).
Given the ease with wich it was damaged, his body did not seem to be well armored (Obi-Wan pulled the plates with his bare hands), probably to grant greater agility.

Personally I think Grievous was built with intentional design flaws, I see no reason he could not have gotten a bulkier, more powerfull and armored body without sacrifcing any speed or agility, but had he done that no jedi would have been able to take him on, least of all Obi-Wan.
Grievous needed to be killable.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2005-05-30 03:28pm

LordOskuro wrote:-Use of the Force: It has been speculated about wich powers are stronger... Light or Dark? As this is specifically being discussed of the Telekinetik powers, I'd like to suggest that the difference here is not the power itself. Both Sith and Jedi use the very same "TK Power", only difference is what they fuel it with, so the real question should be who is stronger.
On regard of strengths... ObiWan defeats an apparently superior Anakin by using the height advantage, on the other hand, Yoda, even when confronted with a terrible height disadvantage when facing Palpatine, does not only resist, but manages to get up to him and match him. Had the battle been completely even (like, for example, Palpatine not having an army coming to his aid), Yoda would have probably won (Maybe the reason Palpatine was so eager to leave at first, until Yoda tickled his pride).

Nope, anakin was defeated because he was still untrained and arrogant, he performed a tactically stupid decision and paid for it.

Yoda retreated because the emperor would have slaughered him had he continued fighting, he was nearly done for when he deflected his ligthning on the pod, it took it out of him to do that.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-05-30 04:33pm

Grievous needed to be killable.

He was a prototype afterall, and expendable.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2005-05-30 06:15pm

Since there was a discussion earlier about the appearance of the Tantive IV in ROTS, I made a small analysis:

1. Overall, the ROTS T:IV is stubbier and not as long and sleek as the ANH T:IV.

2. The ROTS T:IV cockpit window is larger in relation to the hammerhead than the cockpit window on the ANH T:IV.

3. The engines are taller than the base of the sensor dish, on the ANH T:IV, they're almost on the same height.

4. A section of the hull seems to be missing (I'm not 100 % sure) between the body and the engines. This particular piece of hull is often missing from WEG material such as drawings etc. that has been published.

It seems as if WEG materials and not the actual ANH model was used for reference (according to the OS, the blockade runner model was in the modelshop for Episode I but not for Episode III in which the ship is featured?).

Despite these gripes, the ship is still at its proper scale, so it's the proportions that are off. Perhaps this was a "no shit, Sherlock" thing, but anyway...

Post by **The Wookiee** » 2005-05-30 06:20pm

I've been thinking about the Tantive IV and the inconsistencies between ROTS and ANH. However, I rationalize it like this...nineteen years pass between the end of ROTS and the beginning of ANH, so there was, potentially, plenty of time to refit the ship and repaint it. Technological advancement is obviously still going on in that time -compare Anakin's rather obviously mechanical replacement hand to Luke's "I can't believe it's not my hand" limb. With the onset of the war it's not unreasonable to assume Bail Organa began upgrading his personal vessel.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2005-05-30 06:22pm

Yes, that's my take as well. I forgot to mention that.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-05-30 06:24pm

did any notice Tantive IV is painted the colors generally used by the separtists (blue/white) instead those generally used by the republic (red/white).

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-05-30 10:27pm

Technological advancement is obviously still going on in that time -compare Anakin's rather obviously mechanical replacement hand to Luke's "I can't believe it's not my hand" limb.

It has long been established that technological advancement of any significant level could not take place in 20 years in a civilization that has existed for more than 25,000 years. The changes are most likely stylistic, or done for changing utility, not new technology.

Srynerson · Post by **Srynerson** » 2005-05-30 10:39pm

hypnosifl wrote:OK, thanks, that explains it. What's the source for that info?

I believe that the source usually referenced for that is The Courtship of Princess Leia, in which a personal ray shield is also used as a weapon. (There have been other threads on that subject.)

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-05-30 11:42pm

Pure Sabacc wrote:
Technological advancement is obviously still going on in that time -compare Anakin's rather obviously mechanical replacement hand to Luke's "I can't believe it's not my hand" limb.
It has long been established that technological advancement of any significant level could not take place in 20 years in a civilization that has existed for more than 25,000 years. The changes are most likely stylistic, or done for changing utility, not new technology.

Yes. The only real difference is that Anakin's arm isn't designed with skin.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-05-30 11:49pm

The Wookiee wrote:I've been thinking about the Tantive IV and the inconsistencies between ROTS and ANH. However, I rationalize it like this...nineteen years pass between the end of ROTS and the beginning of ANH, so there was, potentially, plenty of time to refit the ship and repaint it. Technological advancement is obviously still going on in that time -compare Anakin's rather obviously mechanical replacement hand to Luke's "I can't believe it's not my hand" limb. With the onset of the war it's not unreasonable to assume Bail Organa began upgrading his personal vessel.

It seems more likely to me that he simply got a new vessel and gave it the same name for sentimental reasons. A "refit" that significantly alters the actual proportions of various parts of the hull, engines, etc. is such an absurdly difficult undertaking that it would probably be easier to simply build a new ship.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2005-05-30 11:55pm

Wait, do we know that what we saw in ROTS was the Tantive IV? What if what we saw was actually the Tantive III?

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2005-05-30 11:56pm

Srynerson wrote:
hypnosifl wrote:OK, thanks, that explains it. What's the source for that info?
I believe that the source usually referenced for that is The Courtship of Princess Leia, in which a personal ray shield is also used as a weapon. (There have been other threads on that subject.)

The shield is used by Isolder as a quasi-lightaber. He kills one guy with it cutting him in half and then burns the face of another attacker. The shiels cuts into an opponent whe they are hit on edge and if hitting the 'wall' of the shield it causes terrible burns.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-05-30 11:58pm

Uraniun235 wrote:Wait, do we know that what we saw in ROTS was the Tantive IV? What if what we saw was actually the Tantive III?

How many times do people have to ask this?!

For like the fourth or fifth time, everything refers to Organa's ship as being the Tantive IV, the same one from ANH.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2005-05-31 01:16am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:Wait, do we know that what we saw in ROTS was the Tantive IV? What if what we saw was actually the Tantive III?
How many times do people have to ask this?!

For like the fourth or fifth time, everything refers to Organa's ship as being the Tantive IV, the same one from ANH.

On the other hand, Senator Organa may have a fondness for Corellian Corvettes and Tantive IV is just a name, like Airforce One. The specific subtype of corvette he uses in ROTS could be a CR >90 and in time as his needs and his rebellious daughter change, Tantive IV becomes the Blockade Runner of ANH.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2005-05-31 01:44am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
Pure Sabacc wrote:
Technological advancement is obviously still going on in that time -compare Anakin's rather obviously mechanical replacement hand to Luke's "I can't believe it's not my hand" limb.
It has long been established that technological advancement of any significant level could not take place in 20 years in a civilization that has existed for more than 25,000 years. The changes are most likely stylistic, or done for changing utility, not new technology.
Yes. The only real difference is that Anakin's arm isn't designed with skin.

They're fond of shiny metal finishes on Naboo, as well. I always took Anakin's prosthetic look to be a local style.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2005-05-31 01:52am

Frank Hipper wrote:
Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
Pure Sabacc wrote: It has long been established that technological advancement of any significant level could not take place in 20 years in a civilization that has existed for more than 25,000 years. The changes are most likely stylistic, or done for changing utility, not new technology.
Yes. The only real difference is that Anakin's arm isn't designed with skin.
They're fond of shiny metal finishes on Naboo, as well. I always took Anakin's prosthetic look to be a local style.

You just gave me the image of a Naboo-themed restaurant (think Hooters) where all the waitresses look like something out of a Sorayama painting...

Not saying that's BAD...

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2005-05-31 01:58am

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:Wait, do we know that what we saw in ROTS was the Tantive IV? What if what we saw was actually the Tantive III?
How many times do people have to ask this?!

For like the fourth or fifth time, everything refers to Organa's ship as being the Tantive IV, the same one from ANH.

A) Funny, I don't recall anyone saying "Tantive 4" in ROTS, and that's the only data I have to go off of.

B) Maybe whoever wrote "everything" is stupid.

But seriously, making it Tantive III would make sense much more easily than this reconciliation bullshit.

C) Get off your fucking high horse and calm down, because this isn't the first time I've seen you make a "OMFG WE ALREADY DISCUSSED THIS" post. Why are you so surprised when someone who isn't as active in PSW as you are accidentally repeats something someone else said?

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2005-05-31 01:58am

The difference between Luke's mechanical hand and Anakin's probably has to do with what they are meant to do. Luke's hand is a replacement that is basically equal to the original hand. Anakin's mechanical arms (the gold skeletal one, and the more human like version) are probably built with combat situations in mind, and are thus more robust. He is, afterall, a Jedi during a civil war of galactic proportions. The mechanical arm did come in handy in at least one occasion (Clone Wars cartoon), when Anakin needed to reach through a ray-sheild and he used his mechanical arm to do so. It is probable that Luke's hand would not have stood up to such punishment.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2005-05-31 02:04am

C) Get off your fucking high horse and calm down, because this isn't the first time I've seen you make a "OMFG WE ALREADY DISCUSSED THIS" post. Why are you so surprised when someone who isn't as active in PSW as you are accidentally repeats something someone else said?

I'm only getting pissed because they keep coming up over and over and over again, more than half the time the poster seems to think that it's never been brought up before. It gets rather grating after a while.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-05-31 02:09am

Personally I think Grievous was built with intentional design flaws, I see no reason he could not have gotten a bulkier, more powerfull and armored body without sacrifcing any speed or agility, but had he done that no jedi would have been able to take him on, least of all Obi-Wan.
Grievous needed to be killable.

I don't think that's very likely. Sending Obi-Wan to Utapau was precisely in line with Darth Sidious plans, in that whatever happened, he would win- General Grievous kills Obi-Wan? Good. Obi-Wan kills Grievous? Good, Grievous would have to be knocked off eventually anyway, and Obi-Wan is still going to get shot in the back by Clonetroopers. Greivous (at that point) served to seperate Anakin from Obi-Wan, so it was all win-win for the Sith. This is all in the novelization. In essence, to suggest that he was built intentionally flawed so that Jedi could kill him is very far-fetched- the Separatists wouldn't want that in the first place, and IIRC they paid for him. I don't see how more armor would've made him anything more but slower- a lightsabre would still have disarmed him.

It would've been cool to see if Obi-Wan had been killed by Grievous, what would have happened? I suspect Grievous would still run away from the forces of Commander Cody, escape to Mustafar- where Darth Vader would promptly deal with him.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2005-05-31 02:25am

Vympel wrote:I don't think that's very likely. Sending Obi-Wan to Utapau was precisely in line with Darth Sidious plans, in that whatever happened, he would win- General Grievous kills Obi-Wan? Good. Obi-Wan kills Grievous? Good, Grievous would have to be knocked off eventually anyway, and Obi-Wan is still going to get shot in the back by Clonetroopers. Greivous (at that point) served to seperate Anakin from Obi-Wan, so it was all win-win for the Sith. This is all in the novelization. In essence, to suggest that he was built intentionally flawed so that Jedi could kill him is very far-fetched- the Separatists wouldn't want that in the first place, and IIRC they paid for him. I don't see how more armor would've made him anything more but slower- a lightsabre would still have disarmed him.

Well thats weird, it's really easy to see how it wouldn't, all you have to do is not to imagine his skeletal body with more armor slapped on.

It is not hard to imagine a whole new design that doesn't have those ludicrous and glaring weaknesses thats so easily exploitable that would take full advantage of SW cyborg tech, I can see no techological problems at all for such a design but that it would make Grievous too powerfull and Obi-wan would not have had a chance in hell.

And if grievous have had the same technology in his arms that his magnaguards staff had, fat chance in disarming him then too.

And I am not saying the plan was that jedi should be able to kill him, I am saying he should be killable period, thats the only reason I can think of for such glaring design flaws, this is trek style engineering flaws here.

Really when I think about it the amount of changes you need to make to properly protect his chest are miniscule and would barely have added to his weight or impeded his agility.

Maybe they just didn't want to make him too powerfull in order to more easily control him, there has to be a reason though, whatever it might be.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2005-05-31 10:18am

On Grevious' design I think what they were going for in the overall concept was flexibility and agility. If you see Grevious' actions throughout the movie he takes full advantage of the flexibility granted by his droid body in various positions to dodge and escape. He also moves fast for something his size as we see in his attempted escape on Utappa (ie. scuttling crablike run, the way he slinks into his wheel bike) and his appearances in the Clone Wars.

Vader on the other hand was brute strength and power with a reasonable amount if agility. With the Jedi gone there was no real need to make Vader greased lightning fast and more importantly it jibed more with Anakin's 'style' in the sense that he now relied on strength and power over acrobatics. Greavious' style was more snake like rapid strikes and contortions.

I don't see him as flawed, he simply represents a different design philosophy.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-05-31 10:26am

His Divine Shadow wrote:
Well thats weird, it's really easy to see how it wouldn't, all you have to do is not to imagine his skeletal body with more armor slapped on.

But what's the armor going to do? Actually protect him more? From what? Lightsabres? Not likely. Other weapons? For all we know thicker or more armor would've simply slowed him down, and the armor he was equipped with was described in the novelization as being able to withstand a fighter laser cannon (probably hyperbole but it's indicative of a point).

It is not hard to imagine a whole new design that doesn't have those ludicrous and glaring weaknesses thats so easily exploitable that would take full advantage of SW cyborg tech, I can see no techological problems at all for such a design but that it would make Grievous too powerfull and Obi-wan would not have had a chance in hell.

The only glaring weakness in Grievous design seems to be his chest plates, and even then, Obi-Wan pulled it open when one was already loose. That's extremely unlikely to happen in most battle situations, especially with a Jedi, who would normally be equipped with a lightsabre.

And if grievous have had the same technology in his arms that his magnaguards staff had, fat chance in disarming him then too.

An energy field over his arms that prevented lightsabre strikes from cutting? How do you even know they can implement that on his arms? Those electrostaffs were quite thick you know. And besides, didn't Obi-Wan disable his hands, not his arms?

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2005-05-31 10:36am

I heard somewhere that the difference between prequel duels and OT duels could be explained as a result of Vader and Obi/Yoda adopting different, more conservative fighting styles in the 20 intervening years. I don't remember if it was a canon source or just some post on this board, though.