THIS SHIT HAS GONE TOO FUCKING FAR!

[StimNeuro]

According to US law, it is illegal to spy on your own citizens. That is what Echelon is for. America spies on the UK, using Echelon, and the UK spies on America. America and the UK exchange information. Canada, Australia, and a few other countries are also involved. What is really funny is that Matt Drudge had Bob Barr on Fox News (3-4 years ago, I think) to discuss Echelon. Right when Barr was getting to the details, the satelite hookup between Drudge and Barr died.

[The Dark]

What does the line in latin say?

"Science is Potential"?

I looked it up; it means "Knowledge is Power." Kinda frightening.

IIRC, Echelon is for overseas, Carnivore was the proposed domestic version of Echelon.

[Alyrium Denryle]

That is a damn good idea. The problem is, we will be placed in prison without trial, as "enemy combatants"

[Darth Wong]

I know I'm liable to get flamed for this but quite frankly this does not seem to be any more threatening than Hoover's FBI or Joe McCarthy and we survived that.

And the people who were directly victimized by it are not important because they're Somebody Else ...

[weemadando]

WeeMadAndo: Goddamn your fucking US government.
MKSheppard: what now
WeeMadAndo: The goddamn new anti-privacy shit.
MKSheppard: so what? We've known about this for years
MKSheppard: as more and more cameras pop up
MKSheppard: with Lockheed Martin
MKSheppard: taking $50 a cut
WeeMadAndo: Fuck speed cameras.
WeeMadAndo: Speed cameras are a neccessary evil.
MKSheppard: They're the first sign
WeeMadAndo: I actually prefer having them, than not.
WeeMadAndo: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=6394
WeeMadAndo: That is the shit that fucks me off.
MKSheppard: So?
MKSheppard: the brits have it worse
MKSheppard: Imagine a fucking camera following your every move in london
WeeMadAndo: Brits have a lot of public surveillance.
MKSheppard: London has about 1 m cameras there
WeeMadAndo: So does Australlia.
MKSheppard: fat lot of good it does you
WeeMadAndo: This is the kind of shit that pisses me off.
MKSheppard: the fact that the government is already taping your every move in major cities doesnt?
WeeMadAndo: With confidential records being disclosed along with many many other breaches of privacy.
WeeMadAndo: I'm in public.
WeeMadAndo: I am accountable for my actions in public.
WeeMadAndo: My medical records, prescriptions, what I write in e-mails, books I buy and loan from the library shouldn't be part of the governments knowledge.
WeeMadAndo: Sure, medical records can be used for certain purposes but they are meant to remain private and confidential.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Count me as one who thought that we've already been doing this for years, BTW.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

If things get bad enough, I'm definitely leaving the U.S. People ignorant of history don't realize how fast a democracy such as the U.S. can turn into a repressive place, and I don't intend to wait until it's too late to leave. Also, I'd be leary of moving to Canada, as I'm not sure a dictatorship-U.S. would tolerate such enlightened neighbors, and may see to it that Canada follows suit. In contemplating countries to move to, I can safely rule out the following candidates:

1. Japan: One of the most, if not the most racist and xenophobic people on the planet.
2. Hong Kong: Too many fucking people.
3. Spain: Their economy is in crappy shape, and they have terrorist problems with the Vasques.
4. Italy: Again, stagnant economy, and not a member of the EU.
5. France: C'mon, it's france
6. Ireland: IRA + high religious fanaticism = no thanks. I could probably get citizenship easily, being Irish myself, but still, no thanks.
7. Switzerland: Unless I'm mistaken, it's not a very foreigner-friendly country as far as permanent residency goes. Great place if you're a citizen, though.
8. All the others: If I forgot about it, it's probably not important enough to consider.

So that leaves Britain, Germany, Belgium, and Holland. I'm going to live in London for a year to do a master's degree, so I'll reserve judgement until then. I haven't been to Germany, but it seems like a good choice on paper. Autobahn, advanced, intolerant of fundamentalism, known for competence (H&K, Walther, Mossberg are some of the world's best guns, BMW, Audi, Porsche are some of the best cars). The only real disadvantage to Germany is that they've reunified with East Germany, whose backwardness will probably hold the country back for decades to come before it is brought up to West Germany's standards. I've actually been to both Belgium and Holland, although not for a long time. Both great countries, although I'm partial to Belgium for the food and because I have friends there.

So there you have it, folks. If you're thinking about moving out of North America before the shit hits the fan, but don't want to give up all the freedom, technology level, and comfort that we enjoy in the U.S., move to Britain, Germany, Belgium, or the Netherlands.

[ArmorPierce]

What ever happened to the part of the constitution that stated no unwarranted SEARCH or siezures?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Legal fees are a bitch.

ACLU will take your case for free. Assuming of course the government doesnt revoke your "right" to fair trial, by a jury of your peers, like they have done to so many others. I am no longer proud to be American. Mike, do you know the requirements for Canadian citizenship?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

I'd rather not associate with the ACLU.

[Shinova]

WeeMadAndo: Goddamn your fucking US government.
MKSheppard: what now
WeeMadAndo: The goddamn new anti-privacy shit.
MKSheppard: so what? We've known about this for years
MKSheppard: as more and more cameras pop up
MKSheppard: with Lockheed Martin
MKSheppard: taking $50 a cut
WeeMadAndo: Fuck speed cameras.
WeeMadAndo: Speed cameras are a neccessary evil.
MKSheppard: They're the first sign
WeeMadAndo: I actually prefer having them, than not.
WeeMadAndo: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=6394
WeeMadAndo: That is the shit that fucks me off.
MKSheppard: So?
MKSheppard: the brits have it worse
MKSheppard: Imagine a fucking camera following your every move in london
WeeMadAndo: Brits have a lot of public surveillance.
MKSheppard: London has about 1 m cameras there
WeeMadAndo: So does Australlia.
MKSheppard: fat lot of good it does you
WeeMadAndo: This is the kind of shit that pisses me off.
MKSheppard: the fact that the government is already taping your every move in major cities doesnt?
WeeMadAndo: With confidential records being disclosed along with many many other breaches of privacy.
WeeMadAndo: I'm in public.
WeeMadAndo: I am accountable for my actions in public.
WeeMadAndo: My medical records, prescriptions, what I write in e-mails, books I buy and loan from the library shouldn't be part of the governments knowledge.
WeeMadAndo: Sure, medical records can be used for certain purposes but they are meant to remain private and confidential.

Public surveillance ain't the same as surveillance into private lives, which is what the US is trying to achieve.

I think there's some kind of SEELE-like hand behind all this. Perhaps someone orchestrated the creation of Al-Qaeda, trained OBL, hit WTC, and did all that so that another of their underlings, Bush, can look the other way while Pointdexter, another underling, worked on Carnivore.






Paranoia is healthy for the mind J/K

[Stravo]

I know I'm liable to get flamed for this but quite frankly this does not seem to be any more threatening than Hoover's FBI or Joe McCarthy and we survived that.

And the people who were directly victimized by it are not important because they're Somebody Else ...

I was not defending MCarthyism or Hoover. I was just looking at it from a big picture point of view. This is not the end of the world or the tearing down of the consitution.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I'd rather not associate with the ACLU.

Why dont you like the ACLU?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Too liberal for my tastes.

[Alyrium Denryle]

The problem is, once these rights are gone, we will never get them back.

[Shinova]

With all this in mind, do any of you guys think the American citizenry is capable of launching a successful revolution if the government gets too oppressive??

[Howedar]

The American beaurocracy is far too bloated to effectively put this into action before the makeup of the government changes and the possibility ceases to exist.

[Durandal]

Bad idea, Damien. The government no longer recognizes your right to due process and a fair trial. They can lock you up indefinitely on suspicion of terrorism.

Unfortunately, that's the only way change happens. If a group of people get together and start bitching loudly enough and violating enough unjust laws, the government will come down on them, which draws major press attention, as well as ACLU lawyers. Granted, I don't want to go to prison, but I hate the idea of just sitting by while my "inalienable rights" are revoked one by one.

4. Italy: Again, stagnant economy, and not a member of the EU.

Italy's government exists in name only.

[Alyrium Denryle]

No. All those people with enough balls(figurativly speaking) to organize a revolution will be arrested as "terrprosts" and the general people are buying right into the propaganda.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Wasn't something like this already shot down a few months ago (Operation TIPS, I think)?

I really don't see how this wouldn't end up being declared uncostitutional eventually.

Arthur_Tuxedo: I woudn't mind Japan.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

With all this in mind, do any of you guys think the American citizenry is capable of launching a successful revolution if the government gets too oppressive??

Capable? Maybe. Will it happen? Absolutely not. The average citizen will be the cheering and apologist section while dissenters are branded "terrorists" and summarily slaughtered/tossed in jail. Even if it were possible, I'd get the hell out of Dodge before I risk becoming a statistic in a horrible, horrible civil war.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Italy's government exists in name only.

Nah, it exists in actuality too. It's called the Mafia

[Durandal]

Italy's government exists in name only.

Nah, it exists in actuality too. It's called the Mafia

That's Sicily.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

Italy's government exists in name only.

Nah, it exists in actuality too. It's called the Mafia

That's Sicily.

Whatever. I'm just talking out my ass

[MKSheppard]

If things get bad enough, I'm definitely leaving the U.S. People ignorant of history don't realize how fast a democracy such as the U.S. can turn into a repressive place, and I don't intend to wait until it's too late to leave.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out, loser. I was born here,
grew up here, and I'll be goddamned if the place turns into a dictatorship
on my watch.