What if the Borg had invaded Dominion space?

bozman · Post by **bozman** » 2002-11-20 11:40pm

That would have been interesting. If, instead of the Dominion teaming up with the Cardassions, we could have seen the Dominion ask for help from the Feds because the Borg decided to pay them a visit.

Any ideas?

paladin · Post by **paladin** » 2002-11-20 11:44pm

That would have been a COOL idea!!! With strong writing it would be a great ST series to replace Boobyprise.

bozman · Post by **bozman** » 2002-11-20 11:49pm

Yeah! And by the way, I am am talking about pre-Voyager Borg!

paladin · Post by **paladin** » 2002-11-20 11:52pm

bozman wrote:Yeah! And by the way, I am am talking about pre-Voyager Borg!

The Borg like when they were first introduction, I hope. I like the new look of the Borg. It looks more impressive.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-11-21 12:01am

It would be a clash of the ST titans, it would have potential indeed.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-11-21 12:01am

Likely Borg victory if they send several ships at once. The Dominion would resort to ramming and stop the first wave, but the second and third would carry the day.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-11-21 12:10am

The Dominion would defeat the first Borg ship with relative ease. However before the Cube is destroyed it would communication the information on the Dominion about a rather powerful and large race that was in charge of the Gama Quadrant. This ought to get the Borg's attention, especially if information about the Dominion cloning technology makes it back to Borg space. This becomes a higher priority item for the Borg to attempt to subdue the Dominion. This time multiple ships are likely dispatched. Again the Dominion likely defeats the Cubes, maybe even upwards of a dozen of them, but only after taking serious losses. At the same time the Borg were able to collect more detailed information about the Dominion and most damning of all, information on the founders. The idea of assimilating shape shifters in such quantities consumes the Borg and they dedicate much larger numbers of Borg ships. Likely a hundred cubes with further support attack the Dominion and quickly take it over. Pockets of Dominion resistance remain because of their ship building and cloning capabilities, but are eventually quashed over time. The Borg adapt to new cloning technology. Even more deadly though, they start experimenting with combining nano technology with their new Founder test subjects for a new type of Drone superior to all previous ones. Then they find the Wormhole and all hell breaks loose.

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2002-11-21 12:15am

Alyeska I like!

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2002-11-21 12:36am

I have always thought that this was an awesome scenario and interestingly enough it was the first idea I had for Star Crossed, it would be the background for an awesome war between the Borg and the Dominion that would consume the whole galaxy. I gave it after a while when I found a better idea. Guess I made the right choice.

BTW I believe the Borg would eventually wear the Dominion down but it would be an awesome war. The Founders would not care a whit about throwing their troops and ships at the Borg cubes and the Borg would have a hell of a time assimlating the vast Dominion territory.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-11-21 12:39am

Stravo wrote:I have always thought that this was an awesome scenario and interestingly enough it was the first idea I had for Star Crossed, it would be the background for an awesome war between the Borg and the Dominion that would consume the whole galaxy. I gave it after a while when I found a better idea. Guess I made the right choice.

BTW I believe the Borg would eventually wear the Dominion down but it would be an awesome war. The Founders would not care a whit about throwing their troops and ships at the Borg cubes and the Borg would have a hell of a time assimlating the vast Dominion territory.

I don't think it would be as big as you think. The Borg do rather heavily outgun the Dominion and if they wished to, heavily outnumber as well.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-11-21 12:44am

True...but given the callousness of the Founders it would've been more of a struggle.

I mean seriously all of the Dominion literally suicing into the Borg would not give them much pause but would be more of a challenge then say the Federation, if they truly pressed forward.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-21 01:11am

Hmm. What would happen if a Borg did try to assimilate a shape-shifter? Would the nano-probes even work?

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-11-21 01:15am

That's a good observation. Additionally, could the Borg make use of JemHadar(sp?) addicted to ketracel white?

bozman · Post by **bozman** » 2002-11-21 01:50am

I think that after some serious examinations of the Founders, the Borg would indeed be able to assimilate them. If anyone would have the technology to take a Founder apart and see what makes them tick, it would be the Borg.

bozman · Post by **bozman** » 2002-11-21 01:53am

So what would an assimilated Founder look like?

Maybe it would first appear as a normal drone, but then melt into a wall or something. There could be some serious possibilities here. What's up with B & B? There are still some great potentials in Star Trek (if it's not screwed up beyond redemption, which it probably is), and instead they give us Amelia Earheart being discovered in the Delta Quadrant! Jeez...

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2002-11-21 02:29am

bozman wrote:So what would an assimilated Founder look like?

Maybe it would first appear as a normal drone, but then melt into a wall or something. There could be some serious possibilities here. What's up with B & B? There are still some great potentials in Star Trek (if it's not screwed up beyond redemption, which it probably is), and instead they give us Amelia Earheart being discovered in the Delta Quadrant! Jeez...

It would probably depend on the ability of the cybernetics to shapeshift as well. If they can get it to, then Borgified shapeshifters would work well. If not, then they would be worse and the implants would fall off after a number of hours. Remember, the Founders have to return to a liquid state every so often.

Perinquus · Post by **Perinquus** » 2002-11-21 06:56am

Given the amorphous nature of the founders, there would be nothing for the implants to be anchored to. I find it unlikely that the Borg could assimilate them, any more than they managed to assimilate Species 8472. Even if you limit this to pre-Voyager Borg, you still have that problem with the Founders morphing into new shapes, and even becoming liquid.

I think it likeliest that the Borg would eventually conquer the Dominion, assimilating all its solid species, including the Jem Hadar, and all their technology; and the Founders would be exterminated as a menace to the collective.

BabelHuber · Post by **BabelHuber** » 2002-11-21 07:13am

I doubt that the Borg could assimilate the whole GQ. When a cube is destroyed it seems to take them a while to send another one. The Dominion could easily use this time frame to build new ships and soldiers.

And one shouldn´t forget that the Borg would have to secure each planet they assimilate. The founders would have no problem to strike back and kill the entire population if necessary.

Besides, the Borg would need a lot of time to build their Transwarp Hubs. Before that they could move faster than the Dominion, but not that fast. Once the hubs are built, they would have to secure them, too. Suicide attacks of the Dominion could hurt the Borg heavily if they succeed, so they would need countermeasures the whole time.

The Borg would need lots of ressources. They can assimilate the population of the local planets, but they would have to build shipyards etc. in the occupied space if they wanted to supply their new troops. Everything else would take ressources away from the DQ.

If the Borg could defeat the Dominion, it would take them decades or even centuries, given the fact that the Borg have been around for thousands of years and have not even total control of the DQ, which lacks a centralised, ruthless force like the Dominion and therefore is much easier to assimilate.

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-11-21 03:13pm

I would give the Borg an eventual victory, assuming they dedicate the neccessary resources, and plan on taking the next few decades.

Seriously most everyone here is over estimating the borgs abilities. The Founders a far smarter tactically and strategically than the borg, and their completely rutheless. If the Feds, the Hirogen, Voth, and numerous others can hold out indefinitely against them the Dominion could as well.

We have no real numbers on how large the Dominion's military machine truly is, the forces it deployed against the AQ are nothing compared to what must be required to hold all those conquered worlds.

Yes, borg ships might be stronger than the Dominions,butwhen was the last time we saw a Borg cube fight dozens on opponents simultaneously. Kamakazi attacks are a given here, clones and ships are cheap and easy to come by for the Dominion. I seriously doubt a cube would survive say a dozen near simultaneous attack ship collisions. Also when have we ever seen the borg deploy a fleet of more than one cube outside the own space?

I doubt very seriously that the borg could ever assimulate a changling, kill one most certainly. Borgify one not a chance. Remember that a full trained changling can very its bodies desity and solidity. They can perfectly immulate solid metal objects, how are the probes going to penetratem. What's to stop the changlings substance from flowing away from the probes; worst case the changling would just detach a pseudopod containg the infected area. And most damning they are not organic lifeforms and have no organ, or even cell for the nanoprobes to work on. We have seen how well the borg assimulate inorganic life (Data), they didn't even try to nanoprobe him. So most likely they can't.

Worst case the Founders abandon their failing empire and move on to parts unknown. Remember that the whole reason they built an empire in the first place was to protect their species from persecution. Other than the few who oversee the Dominion, the vast majority are isolationist home-bodies. If the going got to rough they would just abandon there subjects to the Borg. The changling due to there nature just have to many options, they could blend into any existing ST culture, or just find some barren rock and zone out int their great link.

bozman · Post by **bozman** » 2002-11-21 09:41pm

But Spartan, we have never seen the Borg throw everything that they need to against the Feds, the Hirogen, or the Voth. These races pretty much just know that the Borg are out there and ready to strike at any moment. Look at the Feds, ONE cube can take out an entire fleet (unless Voyager is part of that fleet, of course).

Naaah, if the Borg decided to get rid of the Dominion once and for all, they could do it. It would be a matter of resources. The Borg might take some losses, but in the end they would have a victory.

BabelHuber · Post by **BabelHuber** » 2002-11-22 03:21am

The Borg might take some losses, but in the end they would have a victory.

The Jem Haddar-rifles are equipped with bayonets (as seen in DS9), so the Borg would have a tough time assimilating them, it would be much more difficult than fighting the federation, which lacks such weapons. Ship-boarding or ground battles would take lots of casualties.

And still the question remains if the Borg would have superiour forces in the first place, since the size of the Dominion space is comparable to the Borg space, if not bigger (if they control the whole GQ). The Dominion needs lots of ships to control that space.

A Borg expedition force would therefore likely be inferiour to the Dominion forces, who defend their space and could throw all they have to stop the Borg.

A few dozen federation ships can take down a Borg cube, so even if we assume it takes twice the numbers for the Dominion to do so, the Borg´s casualties would certainly be high, very high. And additional they had to secure their own space in the DQ, so their ressources would be limited.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-11-22 11:07am

BabelHuber wrote:
The Borg might take some losses, but in the end they would have a victory.
The Jem Haddar-rifles are equipped with bayonets (as seen in DS9), so the Borg would have a tough time assimilating them, it would be much more difficult than fighting the federation, which lacks such weapons. Ship-boarding or ground battles would take lots of casualties.

And still the question remains if the Borg would have superiour forces in the first place, since the size of the Dominion space is comparable to the Borg space, if not bigger (if they control the whole GQ). The Dominion needs lots of ships to control that space.

A Borg expedition force would therefore likely be inferiour to the Dominion forces, who defend their space and could throw all they have to stop the Borg.

A few dozen federation ships can take down a Borg cube, so even if we assume it takes twice the numbers for the Dominion to do so, the Borg´s casualties would certainly be high, very high. And additional they had to secure their own space in the DQ, so their ressources would be limited.

A few HUNDRED Federation ships can take down a Borg cube that is. And they would have lost if it weren't for Picard.

The Dominion control their part of the Galaxy yes, but looking at the numbers from the Dominion war they likely don't have more then a 100,000 ships or so. These are ships that are relatively equal to that of Federation ships. A single Borg cube can plow through 300 some Federation ships with at least half of them being higher end ships. A dozen Borg ships could savage the Dominion numbers even if they are killed. With the discovery of the Jem'Hadar cloning and the Founder changelings the Borg would redouble their effort to take the Dominion and likely send hundreds of cubes.

IMO the Borg would utilize their nano technology to subvert and control the Founders.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-11-22 02:40pm

Umm, where do you get the several hundred ships figure? If Starfleet had concentrated their fire before the Borg could adapt, then the Cube could have been blown apart pretty easily by 40-50 decent ships. As it was, they were half-assedly strafing all sides of it to no useful effect.

BabelHuber · Post by **BabelHuber** » 2002-11-22 05:07pm

A few HUNDRED Federation ships can take down a Borg cube that is

In ST:FC we saw onlya few dozens of them at best attacking the cube. Combining the firepower to overcome the shields at one point wasn´t necessarily the decision of a genius, and weak spots tend to show over time. And the cube was already severely damaged, as directs hits were seen. Even if they could get through the defences, a Jem Haddar world not be as easy to assimilate than a federation world because of the bayonet-eqipped enemies which would cause heavy losses.
Assimilating a planet of another species would be strategically doubtful at best, because the gathered information would have less value and the system would need Borg defences for Domion counter-attacks.

The dominion would only have to take a transwarp hub to put the Borg on defense, and even if they failed they had their full Navy at hand and the Borg only an expedition force.

Dark Primus · Post by **Dark Primus** » 2002-11-22 06:30pm

BabelHuber wrote: In ST:FC we saw onlya few dozens of them

Maybe because the rest of the fleet had already been destroyed. The battle lasted from either several days or hours in high warp towards Earth.
Besides i doubt Federation would only send 40-50 ships to begin with. Since 39 out of 40 ships at Wolf 359 had been destroyed in 10 minutes. I doubt Starfleet will make the same misstake twice. Considering the losses from the Fleet-Borg audio we can hear 4-6 ships being destroyed in just few seconds of battle. 40-50 ships won't cut it.

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