Some ideas on determining why some Jedi beat others and why.

[MrAnderson]

Ok its a bit confusing in the movie as well as when you take in some EU and Clone War bits.

1. Dooku can easily slam Obi-Wan around.

2. Anakin can easily handle Dooku. (Easily as in the fight lasts less than 3 minutes)

3. Obi-Wan can defeat General Grevious.

4. General Grevious can take on multiple Masters and lesser and win.

5. Obi-Wan defeats Anakin.


Ok here are my thoughts.

When Dooku faces Obi and Ani I would easily expect the Emperor to be using the dark side to hold Obi-Wan back. The room is already filled with the Dark Side with Dooku in it so odds are neither Jedit will notice this. This allows Dooku to easily push off Obi-Wan only to lose to Anakin moments later.

General Grevious probably has most of his Jedi sucess based on how unusual his tactics are and how rarely Jedi actually fight other saber wielding foes. Few who face him and lose have ever seen a style like his before (guess on my part). Obi Wan has neither of these working against him. He is one of the few Jedi alive who have faced a skilled saber user in battle (Maul and Dooku) and lived. These two experiences have probably enticed Obi-Wan to focus and exhance his saber fighting skill more than most. Second I am sure the other masters who were defeated but not killed by Grevious passed along all their knowledge about Grevious to the rest of the Jedi.

Finally we have the Anakin vs Obi-Wan fight. This I chalk up to Obi-Wan knowing Anakins style better than anyone else in the Jedi order. He also knows how Anakin thinks. Obi-Wan retreats and fights purely defensive and waits for an opportune moment. Then he uses Anakin against himself. He "insults" Anakins powers by telling him he is a losing position thuis goading Anakin into trying anyway.

[Ghost Rider]

Palpatine was holding Obi Wan Back. In the novel Obi-Wan even mentions that when Dooku was dead, he didn't feel the shroud leave, while Anakin barely noted it.

Grievous? Dooku always tells him to attack with initimidation, surprise and fear. Note his opening to Obi-Wan, as he tries to appear far more menacing and he brags who trained him.

Obi-Wan not only knew Anakin better, he knew to give up ground until Anakin fucks himself over.

[Kaintukee_Bob]

You can't forget the environmental hazards that were present for that battle. In the end, Obi-Wan got the high ground, and Anakin was in a bad position.

Obi-Wan is the better tactician, though Anakin is the better fighter.

[Darth Mortis]

Ok its a bit confusing in the movie as well as when you take in some EU and Clone War bits.

1. Dooku can easily slam Obi-Wan around.

2. Anakin can easily handle Dooku. (Easily as in the fight lasts less than 3 minutes)

3. Obi-Wan can defeat General Grevious.

4. General Grevious can take on multiple Masters and lesser and win.

5. Obi-Wan defeats Anakin.


Ok here are my thoughts.

When Dooku faces Obi and Ani I would easily expect the Emperor to be using the dark side to hold Obi-Wan back. The room is already filled with the Dark Side with Dooku in it so odds are neither Jedit will notice this. This allows Dooku to easily push off Obi-Wan only to lose to Anakin moments later.

General Grevious probably has most of his Jedi sucess based on how unusual his tactics are and how rarely Jedi actually fight other saber wielding foes. Few who face him and lose have ever seen a style like his before (guess on my part). Obi Wan has neither of these working against him. He is one of the few Jedi alive who have faced a skilled saber user in battle (Maul and Dooku) and lived. These two experiences have probably enticed Obi-Wan to focus and exhance his saber fighting skill more than most. Second I am sure the other masters who were defeated but not killed by Grevious passed along all their knowledge about Grevious to the rest of the Jedi.

Finally we have the Anakin vs Obi-Wan fight. This I chalk up to Obi-Wan knowing Anakins style better than anyone else in the Jedi order. He also knows how Anakin thinks. Obi-Wan retreats and fights purely defensive and waits for an opportune moment. Then he uses Anakin against himself. He "insults" Anakins powers by telling him he is a losing position thuis goading Anakin into trying anyway.

Dooku easily could have annilated Obi Wan, however, according to the novel, they were much better than he anticipated, switching styles rapidly in the middle of combat. Dooku had a much better understanding of the tk part of the force, which is why Obi-Wan fell.

Dooku's weakness was Anakin's innate force ability and his anger, whom even he was in awe of.

General Grevious was proficient in learning the techniques of any Jedi he came into combat with. In the Novel, Mace suggests that Obi-Wans style is defensive and will have the greatest chance because Grevious has not engaged him.

Obi-Wan did not defeat Anakin, Anakin's anger and arrogance did it for him.

[Praxis]

You can't forget the environmental hazards that were present for that battle. In the end, Obi-Wan got the high ground, and Anakin was in a bad position.

Obi-Wan is the better tactician, though Anakin is the better fighter.

IMO, Anakin has the greater power but Obi-wan has the better saber skills and is a better tactitian.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

IMO, Anakin has the greater power but Obi-wan has the better saber skills and is a better tactitian.

Do you agree that, had the duel gone the distance and hadn't been broken up by the sea of molten lava and the like, that Anakin would have triumphed?

[Molyneux]

IMO, Anakin has the greater power but Obi-wan has the better saber skills and is a better tactitian.

Do you agree that, had the duel gone the distance and hadn't been broken up by the sea of molten lava and the like, that Anakin would have triumphed?

Not necessarily. Sheer strength and agility aren't everything in a duel - usage of the environment is also a major factor, as well as tactics.

Also, did you notice exactly *how* Obi-wan was fighting Anakin for most of the duel? He was making Anakin 'hold down the pillow'. If they'd kept fighting for a long period of time without environmental hazards, Obi-wan would have waited until Anakin wore himself out and beaten him then.

[Cykeisme]

Anakin is supposed to have better saber skills as well as being stronger in the Force. Obi-Wan has experience, tactical knowledge and an understanding of how Anakin thinks. Terrain makes a huge difference, and Obi-Wan knew how to use it to take advantage of his strengths while nullifying Anakin's.

I'm glad to see folks have finally begun shed the "level of power" idea, but I suspect it'll be a while before they apply it to Sidious.

[Stark]

Depends what you mean by 'sabre skills'. He's technically proficent, but Obi-wan was controlling the fight the whole time (leading Anakin all over the show) without dying. He wasn't even trying to kill Anakin for most of it: that puts him at a disadvantage. Anakin was supercharging the force, he was younger, faster, wanted to kill his opponent, and he COULDN'T SCORE A SINGLE HIT IN FIFTEEN MINUTES. Excuse me while I laugh at anyone, ANYONE who says Anakin was a better swordsman than Obi-wan.

MUSHROOM EDIT - What I MEANT to say was, why has Obi-wan had consistently poor performance against Dooku? Mention forms and I'll cry. I agree in ROTS there was probably other factors, but in AOTC Dooku pwnzors Obi-wan quickly then fights Anakin for ages. Was he simply messing with him, to work out how powerful he was?

[Darwin]

MUSHROOM EDIT - What I MEANT to say was, why has Obi-wan had consistently poor performance against Dooku? Mention forms and I'll cry. I agree in ROTS there was probably other factors, but in AOTC Dooku pwnzors Obi-wan quickly then fights Anakin for ages. Was he simply messing with him, to work out how powerful he was?

I think it was Dooku's strength in the force. Dooku probably isn't that much better a swordsman than General Kenobi, but fortified by the darkside, Dooku could simply overpower Obi-Wan, while he's forced to actually duel with Anakin, because he can't beat him in raw power.

[Cykeisme]

He's technically proficent, but Obi-wan was controlling the fight the whole time (leading Anakin all over the show) without dying.

"Losing ground".

He wasn't even trying to kill Anakin for most of it: that puts him at a disadvantage.

Then what did he go there for?

Excuse me while I laugh at anyone, ANYONE who says Anakin was a better swordsman than Obi-wan.

I hope Nick Gillard doesn't have his feelings easily hurt

Mention forms and I'll cry.

Obi-Wan fights with a defensive technique. No wait.. a defensive form.
I remember this thread for Praxis' extensive and informative post.
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=69676

[Eleas]

MUSHROOM EDIT - What I MEANT to say was, why has Obi-wan had consistently poor performance against Dooku? Mention forms and I'll cry. I agree in ROTS there was probably other factors, but in AOTC Dooku pwnzors Obi-wan quickly then fights Anakin for ages. Was he simply messing with him, to work out how powerful he was?

I think it was Dooku's strength in the force. Dooku probably isn't that much better a swordsman than General Kenobi, but fortified by the darkside, Dooku could simply overpower Obi-Wan, while he's forced to actually duel with Anakin, because he can't beat him in raw power.

Dooku is supposed to have been a lightsabre instructor. I think it's a fair assumption that his technical proficiency would exceed that of Kenobi.

[Eleas]

Depends what you mean by 'sabre skills'. He's technically proficent, but Obi-wan was controlling the fight the whole time (leading Anakin all over the show) without dying. He wasn't even trying to kill Anakin for most of it: that puts him at a disadvantage. Anakin was supercharging the force, he was younger, faster, wanted to kill his opponent, and he COULDN'T SCORE A SINGLE HIT IN FIFTEEN MINUTES. Excuse me while I laugh at anyone, ANYONE who says Anakin was a better swordsman than Obi-wan.

Obi-Wan's style (not the crap put forth by the Star Wars insider, but simply his mode of fighting and outlook) was highly defensive. In that sense, Obi-Wan is a better swordsman. But Obi-Wan's defense consisted largely of retreating and blocking. That, coupled with the Force and his knowledge of how Anakin thought and fought, would give Obi-Wan a very good chance to hold his own.

Consequently, it is not at all unreasonable to think Anakin a better swordsman. Many of his techniques were brilliantly executed, and he was hideously quick.

[Praxis]

IMO, Anakin has the greater power but Obi-wan has the better saber skills and is a better tactitian.

Do you agree that, had the duel gone the distance and hadn't been broken up by the sea of molten lava and the like, that Anakin would have triumphed?

It's tough to say. Raw power (Anakin) does not always triumph over skill and tactics.

Just play Super Smash Bros and you'll see what I mean

[Vympel]

It's tough to say. Raw power (Anakin) does not always triumph over skill and tactics.

It's not just raw power on Anakin's side, it's also skill. In any case, Obi-Wan and Anakin knew each other extremely well, in terms of how they fought. Obi-Wan had the brains to take advantage of what he knew Anakin would do.

[Cykeisme]

Well said.

[Crown]

You can't forget the environmental hazards that were present for that battle. In the end, Obi-Wan got the high ground, and Anakin was in a bad position.

Obi-Wan is the better tactician, though Anakin is the better fighter.

Look there is no doubt in my mind that Anakin is waaay more powerfull (or potentially so) than Obi-Wan, but keep in mind that Obi-Wan managed to dis-arm Anakin in the control/tactical room (when Anakin tries to choke him) somehow. Obi-Wan isn't as shabby as people are suggesting.

[Molyneux]

You can't forget the environmental hazards that were present for that battle. In the end, Obi-Wan got the high ground, and Anakin was in a bad position.

Obi-Wan is the better tactician, though Anakin is the better fighter.

Look there is no doubt in my mind that Anakin is waaay more powerfull (or potentially so) than Obi-Wan, but keep in mind that Obi-Wan managed to dis-arm Anakin in the control/tactical room (when Anakin tries to choke him) somehow. Obi-Wan isn't as shabby as people are suggesting.

I don't think that anyone's suggesting that Obi-Wan is anything other than an expert duelist; they're saying that Anakin was better.

I agree that Anakin was most likely faster and stronger than Kenobi, but given the way the fight went, I'd say that in a straight out, to-the-finish fight, Kenobi would eventually win when Anakin became too worn-out to continue the fight.

[Crown]

I just think that some people are confusing backing the fuck away from someone who has more speed, more strength and more reach than you to equal automatically that the said person is somehow and inferior duelist. It's like saying that Yoda is inferior because he doesn't stand still and jumps around a lot, something which I'm getting a bit tired of hearing.

That's all.

[Castor Troy]

Doesn't the level of Force the Jedi has depend on how many midi-chlorians they have in them, coupled with their knowledge, skill and experience with the Force? Or am I missing something here?

[Molyneux]

I just think that some people are confusing backing the fuck away from someone who has more speed, more strength and more reach than you to equal automatically that the said person is somehow and inferior duelist. It's like saying that Yoda is inferior because he doesn't stand still and jumps around a lot, something which I'm getting a bit tired of hearing.

That's all.

Backing away does not make you a better duelist; however, backing away consistently and letting your opponent tire himself out *is* an accepted and effective tactic. Given that Obi-Wan practiced a defensive style of duelling, it's likely that he was backing away intentionally, rather than being forced to retreat.

[Cykeisme]

Exactly.

Anakin may be better at the swordy swordy swingy choppy, but to rate a duelist, you have to take everything into account. Obi-Wan uses his defensive techniques (and tactical experience) and retreats to lead the fight all the way to a location where he has an advantage. Then he takes that advantage.
Lightsaber duels rarely happen in completely flat, featureless arenas with well-defined borders. There's always terrain that throws a wrench into the mix.

So is Anakin better with a lightsaber? Yes.
Is Obi-Wan a better duelist? Yes!

[Praxis]

Doesn't the level of Force the Jedi has depend on how many midi-chlorians they have in them, coupled with their knowledge, skill and experience with the Force? Or am I missing something here?

Thats the effectiveness.
Midi-chlorians determines the raw power.

Whether they actually win in a fight or not depends on their knowledge, skill, and experience

[Cykeisme]

A good analogy would be that the number of midi-chlorians would be like the size of your muscles. You can have bigger muscles but still lose a fight.

Of course, the number of midi-chlorians in a being's body probably don't change throughout their life, so the analogy isn't perfect.

[Eleas]

So is Anakin better with a lightsaber? Yes.
Is Obi-Wan a better duelist? Yes!

That doesn't follow. At all.

I've fenced myself for a few years. Even my sensei would be held effectively at bay by someone such as myself for a surprisingly long time if I was employing the defense Obi-Wan used. Why? Because he was giving ground. It is not indicative of superiority or even parity. It is simply the wisest course when you may be outmatched by someone who tries to overwhelm you with force and intensity.

If you strive to keep the enemy so far out of reach that he cannot make an effective attack, use small motions but refrain from any real counterattacks, and retreat constantly, you are really only at a serious disadvantage when you run back up against a wall. You're not even close to the danger you're in when you stand your ground.

Also, I would hesitate to call Obi-Wan a "duelist". That term implies preference for sword-on-sword contests and a competitive outlook, more akin to Dooku's attitude. Obi-Wan, in contrast, isn't afraid of using whatever trick he has to win. He fights with style and elegance, but he uses techniques that would probably appall a pure fencer. He's much more like Anakin in that respect, willing to go with what works even as he likes to show off.

To be quite honest, to me it is irrelevant who is the "better" fighter, Anakin or Obi-Wan. There are so many variables, so many different styles they have assimilated, and such mutual insight they have into the other's style, that they are (and indeed were shown to be) evenly matched in the end. I may feel that a calmer Vader with more experience at harnessing his rage would have been able to better contain Obi-Wan, and that could have forced him to rely on a more intense close-in defense. Quite likely, Anakin's combination of skill and ferocity would have ground him down. But that is also part of being a warrior, and in the end, the one who walks away by virtue of his own decisions should be considered the better fighter.

As for how Vader is defeated in the end, it was essentially the Samurai staredown, and that has a lot to do with nerve and purity of technique. The idea is that the swordsman should be ready to die, and can thus be counted on to perform his chosen technique to the utmost of his ability. It is a matter of timing and decisive commitment, and Anakin had little of both, being consumed by rage and selfishness at that moment. I don't doubt that Obi-Wan was ready to trade his life for Vader's at that moment, if it should be necessary, and that is why he won. In that sense, Obi-Wan was clearly the master swordsman.

So I would revise it slightly:
* Anakin was stronger, quicker, and easily as skilled as Obi-Wan
* Obi-Wan was wilier, level-headed, and much more experienced

In the end, experience won.