Venators vs. ISD Comparison

[Coyote]

The ARC part of ARC-170 stands for "Aggressive Reconnaissance" (ICS) so these ships are not true fighters but long-range scouts that can hold their own if they stir up trouble and get back to the fleet-- where the Actis is supposed to deal with it.

It's the Actis I wonder about. They are called the "Jedi fighter" but even in the Old Rep days there could not possibly be enough Jedi to round out several squadrons of Interceptors per each Venator in service.

It may have been the "preferred fighter of the Jedi" but issued widely.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Interestingly, McQuarrie didn't have this problem. The only geometric problem of the OT I know of was the fact that the Falcon set didn't fit the model, and that's not his fault.

I suspect that Ralph McQuarrie was the kind of guy who actually knew how to change the oil in his car. I also suspect that Doug Chiang wouldn't know a differential from a dipstick.

You guys are forgetting about Joe Johnston, among others like Nilo Rodis-Jamero, who I can't recall, who did pretty much most of the vehicle and ship designs for the OT. McQuarrie was more of a character/creature/production concept/matte painting artist. Johnston did way more than McQuarrie.

[Kettch]

Ralph McQuarrie cut his teeth drawing for engineers

Born on June 13, 1929 in Gary, Indiana. His earliest influences came from his grandfather, who did watercolors, and his mother, who sketched and painted. At age 10 , Ralph began art classes and studied technical drawing in high school and landed his first major job with kaiser graphics in the fifties. He soon moved over to the Boeing company where he sharpened his craft in mechanical drawing illustrating the latest concepts in air and spacecraft. Millions of Americans became familiar with Ralph McQuarrie's art work during the televised CBS news coverage of the amazing Apollo lunar missions. His graphic illustrations revealed to us the first stages of man's exploration of the universe.

From http://www.ralphmcquarrie.com/bio/index.html

[Firefox]

Are there any estimates on the volume/size of the Venator's reactor? I'm not sure how reliable the ICS is in depicting it. Having a physical representation of the hull (the Revell kit) puts it in perspective.

[Ender]

I also recall the ISD Mk I having 120 light TLs.

That was Lord Edam's estimate.

Personally, I'm starting to thinkthe WEG numbers are right for the light guns. We already know the game has always been skewed towards the small groups - no massive fleet battles, no metropolis planets, etc. Why would it be a shock that theyt only included the guns likely to target and hit you in the descriptions?

[Andras]

Personally, I'm starting to thinkthe WEG numbers are right for the light guns. We already know the game has always been skewed towards the small groups - no massive fleet battles, no metropolis planets, etc. Why would it be a shock that theyt only included the guns likely to target and hit you in the descriptions?

I've said that before also. What's the point of having stats for a heavy turbolaser that will blow away in one shot the small freighter the party is fleeing on? GM- "Oops, the HTL hit you, make new characters."

The original WEG stats were 60 TL battery's of 5 guns each, making 300 total (and 60 ion canon in 12 battery's of 5). That was based on the Tech Journal entry. Later, after the 2nd edition and the EGVV the 60 TL battery's were left undefined, and then reduced to 60 TL cannon. Now, the WOTC version has 60 cannon in 12 batteries of 5 guns.

I once posted a ISD estimate with 60 batteries of 2 guns, making 120 LTL in total.

[McC]

The original WEG stats were 60 TL battery's of 5 guns each, making 300 total (and 60 ion canon in 12 battery's of 5). That was based on the Tech Journal entry. Later, after the 2nd edition and the EGVV the 60 TL battery's were left undefined, and then reduced to 60 TL cannon. Now, the WOTC version has 60 cannon in 12 batteries of 5 guns.

So, doesn't that suggest that it should have 300 LTLs?

[Connor MacLeod]

nevermind.. Andras hit on this (it was the sourcebook, I've got the quote somewhere.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Personally, I'm starting to thinkthe WEG numbers are right for the light guns. We already know the game has always been skewed towards the small groups - no massive fleet battles, no metropolis planets, etc. Why would it be a shock that theyt only included the guns likely to target and hit you in the descriptions?

I've said that before also. What's the point of having stats for a heavy turbolaser that will blow away in one shot the small freighter the party is fleeing on? GM- "Oops, the HTL hit you, make new characters."

The original WEG stats were 60 TL battery's of 5 guns each, making 300 total (and 60 ion canon in 12 battery's of 5). That was based on the Tech Journal entry. Later, after the 2nd edition and the EGVV the 60 TL battery's were left undefined, and then reduced to 60 TL cannon. Now, the WOTC version has 60 cannon in 12 batteries of 5 guns.

I once posted a ISD estimate with 60 batteries of 2 guns, making 120 LTL in total.

Here's hte quote:

"Turbolasers and ion cannons are mounted in five gun batteries, each battery contains 3 turrets, two of which
are double mounted, and one single mounted. The turrets can jointly target a single enemy ship to concentrate firepower, or fire
independently to engage multiple targets"

Note that this "300 gun" figure applies to both TLs and Ion cannons, and that the "five-gun" modification breaks down into two twin turrets and one single. (180 TL and 180 ion cannon turrets.)

the 12 "five"-gun" batteries I recall is the WOTC interpretation, not the WEG one (instead of 60 five-gun batteries, you have 60 individual guns making up 12 5-gun batteries.)

And by "Tech Journal" do you mean the Star Wars Technical Journal? I don't see that in my copy (I'll double check, but I'm pretty damn sure it ain' t there.) It shows up in the "Star Wars sourceboo" first edition and then in the "Special edition" movie trilogy sourcebook released with the "Special editions" of SW came out.


As a side note it could be noted that according to the SW encyclopedia (or was that the illustrated guide to the SW galaxy?) ISD "energy batteries" (the "computerized energy batteries mentioned in the ANH novel) were composed of both ion AND TL batteries together, not separate. Its also worth noting (I think) that in the EGW&T that TLs are depicted as dual barrel, ,and Ion cannons as single barrel. (Possibly a variant modification, the Devastator's batteries might have been redesigned as mixed TL and ion 'batteries" - 2 dual TL and 1 single ion cannon per battery.)

EDIT: Hell while I'm trotting out other sourcs:

The ANH novelization attirbutes the Devastator with having "Dozens" of heavy weapons emplacements, and the screenplay for ANH mentions "hundreds" of laser bolts pelting the Tantive IV, to my knowledge the only "canon" clues to armament. I suspect tht the "heavy emplacements" are not the "WEG" figures (although I suspect this may be what inspired them, just as the TESB radio drama inspired the WEG AT-AT height.) - like with the Acclamator, the ISD may mount some heavy turrets inside its trenches as well as dorsally (The Venators in ROTS do seem to fire bolts from the trench notches that are as large as the turret-fired bolts as well.)

[SCVN 2812]

There are two quad tubolasers (one on each side) of the ISDI model, the barrels, at least to my untrained eye, definitely seem heavy turbolaser scale.

The Venator has trench mounted medium turbolasers, one dual turret on each side, according to the ICS. It could be an intermediate weapon between what is considered the standard turbolaser (there are turbolasers on Acclamator and on several of the CIS ships that have no size modifiers before them in their listings in the ICS books.)

[Trytostaydead]

I don't know if anyone's brought this us, and maybe when ROTS comes out on DVD, but when Obiwan Kenobi boards a landed Venerator (just one single ramp), while it might have something to do with the relative scale, the way the ramp (just wide enough maybe to pass two people) was set up going into a mammoth opening (in comparison on the ship) it made the Venerator look like a pretty small ship.

[Andras]

And by "Tech Journal" do you mean the Star Wars Technical Journal? I don't see that in my copy (I'll double check, but I'm pretty damn sure it ain' t there.) It shows up in the "Star Wars sourceboo" first edition and then in the "Special edition" movie trilogy sourcebook released with the "Special editions" of SW came out.

You are correct, The original sourcebook has 60 TL and 60 IC battery's of 5 guns each. I also mis-remembered the SWTJ in that it says 60 Heavy Turbolaser Cannon or Turbolaser emplacements, and it also has 60 single mounted Ion cannon.

the WEG 2e rulebook has 60 TL batteries (undefined) and 60 Ion cannon (single)
the 2e Trilogy Sourcebook repeats the 5 gun battery statement, and lists 60 TL batterys and 60 Ion cannon.

WOTC D20 says 60 TL cannon and 60 Ion cannon in 'batterys' of 5 individual guns.

I should have gone and checked my books before posting from memory, sorry.

One more thing, WOTC really nerfed the Vic-1 because they gave it 20 Concussion missile silos with 80 missiles total, down from 80 silos in all the WEG stats.

[Connor MacLeod]

You are correct, The original sourcebook has 60 TL and 60 IC battery's of 5 guns each. I also mis-remembered the SWTJ in that it says 60 Heavy Turbolaser Cannon or Turbolaser emplacements, and it also has 60 single mounted Ion cannon.

the WEG 2e rulebook has 60 TL batteries (undefined) and 60 Ion cannon (single)
the 2e Trilogy Sourcebook repeats the 5 gun battery statement, and lists 60 TL batterys and 60 Ion cannon.

WOTC D20 says 60 TL cannon and 60 Ion cannon in 'batterys' of 5 individual guns.

Sounds about right. (I don't remember where the 2nd edition rulebook says 60 single ion cannons though. Do you have a quote?

The reason for the diversity may be they're experimenting with different combinations of weaponry. I've started to suspect that perhaps the "canon" warship armament (6 twin TL, 2 twin ion, maybe the "dozens" of heavy weapons and hundreds of laser cannons from the novel/script..)
differ frorm the EU examples (There might be very good reasons for going for a increasing the number of guns and decreasing their size.. some heavy cruisers in WW2 traded their heavier 8 inch guns for a larger number of lighter 6-inch guns, and did almost as well IIRC..)

I should have gone and checked my books before posting from memory, sorry.

Don't sweat it. It happens sometimes.

One more thing, WOTC really nerfed the Vic-1 because they gave it 20 Concussion missile silos with 80 missiles total, down from 80 silos in all the WEG stats.

They also labeled them as planetary assault weapons only, when they can be used against starships (look at Isard's Revenge.)

About the only thing WOTC stats got right was that they added laser cannons to the ISD in the revised rules when AOTC came out.

[Vympel]

I don't know if anyone's brought this us, and maybe when ROTS comes out on DVD, but when Obiwan Kenobi boards a landed Venerator (just one single ramp), while it might have something to do with the relative scale, the way the ramp (just wide enough maybe to pass two people) was set up going into a mammoth opening (in comparison on the ship) it made the Venerator look like a pretty small ship.

Watch the hull of the Venator closely. You can see very tiny figures walking on it in that scene. They were probably placed there for precisely that purpose.