The Dominion vs The Empire

[Martok]

Uhmmmm..... you were the one who proposed 'Dominion vs Empire' right? But now you don't want the Empire to be aware of the Dominion? That bird just won't fly.

Nice selective quoting, however I never said they didn't know the Dominion existed, but they would still need to map their space. Upon arriving to an uncharted galaxy they will have to map.

The Dominion as the primary non Borg military power are the most likely group to provide resistance to the Empire, I never set parameters for my "vs" scenario, but it appears a war of conquest of the Milky Way by the Empire resulting in confrontation with the Dominion has evolved, therefore as I said at least a QUARTER of the galaxy would need mapping to allow hyperspace travel within the Dominion at a military level.

[DPDarkPrimus]

at least a QUARTER of the galaxy would need mapping to allow hyperspace travel within the Dominion at a military level.

Why?

[Asdeed]

Uhmmmm..... you were the one who proposed 'Dominion vs Empire' right? But now you don't want the Empire to be aware of the Dominion? That bird just won't fly.

Nice selective quoting, however I never said they didn't know the Dominion existed, but they would still need to map their space. Upon arriving to an uncharted galaxy they will have to map.

The Dominion as the primary non Borg military power are the most likely group to provide resistance to the Empire, I never set parameters for my "vs" scenario, but it appears a war of conquest of the Milky Way by the Empire resulting in confrontation with the Dominion has evolved, therefore as I said at least a QUARTER of the galaxy would need mapping to allow hyperspace travel within the Dominion at a military level.

Okey doke, i'll try a slightly more indepth version.

Why would they need to map the entire Milky Way just to fight the Dominion?

They've never been here, so how do they know where the pre-eminant military power is situated? They need to search, and map to make hyperspace travel in this galaxy viable.

Regardless of that, the dominion rule about 1/4 of the Galaxy, even if the Empire dont need to hyperspace map the whole thing.. at least a quarter would need to be mapped for an effective military campaign, with the inherant difficulties of mapping for hyperspace travel. Remember in 20,000+ years there are still unmapped or poorly mapped areas of Wars space.

So they'll need to map the entire galaxy to find the toughest opponent who in this case you've declared to be the Dominion?

And poorly mapped after 20,000 plus years? Habbuh? Watch AOTC again, they've mapped every star system in their galaxy and nobody knows how long it took.

So the Galactic Fleet (which must be pretty big for a galactic invasion) sits outside the galaxy as previously suggested and lobs a few million probe droids in to plot some safe routes and maybe pin down a few civilizations. Once they've spotted the Dominion send in another wave of probes to chart safe jumps to their systems and begin the attack. Anytime it bogs down just jump back out the same way you came in. Where's the problem?

[Stark]

Mandy told me I should be nicer, so we'll try that on for a post or two.

Nowhere have I shown the slightest penchant for abuse or insults, I belive some common courtesy in response wouldn't be too hard. The moment you have to insult someone is the moment you've lost an argument. Not flaming here, just requesting the civility you claim the Trek crowd are incapable of.

Oh boo hoo. I don't claim ANYTHING about the Trek crowd: I've seen everything from hopeless fanboys to pathological liars and every type of scum in between argue the ST side. Perhaps I was hasty - you *have* already demonstrated the ability to admit you're wrong, which puts you in the top 2% of all ST debators ever.

I assume no such thing, I simply stated that enough similarity exists to sustain an argument, in a total absence of empirical evidence one must make assumptions. I also never stated "Phased polarons pwnz0r your lame ISDs" as a "silver bullet" "deus ex machina" argument would, I merely stated that phased polaron beams on the evidence I have to hand ignore deflector shield tech that hasn't been modified to specifically deal with them.

You stated a conclusion without proof. I pointed it out, you still provide no proof. I even ASKED if you had any similarities, beyond 'its a defensive system that's invisible'. You totally ignore the likelyhood that Fed shields need polaron style mods for new weapons ALL THE TIME, since they're so damn threat-dependent. Frequency dependency + 'phased' weapon = bad, but SW shields have no identified dependencies of any kind.

I stand corrected. maybe i'll have to rewatch. I know the founders had advance warning due to infiltrators and had left the planet and set an ambush, However this was a joint Tal'Shiar/Obsidian Order operation, I doubt their intelligence was totally wrong but i'll concede the point.

Well since the TS and OO were both TOTALLY INFILTRATED WITH SHAPESHIFTERS and the whole idea was PROPOSED by one of these shapeshifters (IIRC), it sounds like a setup to me. I admit I'm not 100% on these facts, however I am under the understanding that the planet was a barren rock with a sensor-spoofing system feeding 'looks like Founders' into the orbiting ships. The competency of the TS and OO leadership is further called into question by the lameness of their bombardment, but that's for another time.

Now who's firing silver bullets? This sounds far more like what you're accusing me of than my statement was. I conceded the Empire could destroy worlds, canonically unarguable. But where is the gain in this? What does the empire spend Billions of credits for.. a dead galaxy? A war always has a purpose, and for the empire it is conquest. Destruction of resource rich worlds to "win" would be the act of a petulant 2 year old, not a power hungry emperor. The US could nuke any enemy, however their wars have a REASON, be it the spread of their political ideals or ensuring flow of resources (oil). The empire's campaign would have similar goals or rules of engagement.

And like I said, the "We can blow up your worlds" argument is boring and a logical dead end.

WW2 anyone? Stop whining - the Empire has the speed, endurance, range, firepower and nerve to simply destroy planets. Deal with it, or go pick on another group. They're nasty and powerful: they WILL kill you.

You've missed the fucking point anyway. Using the Fed as an example, since I'm not familiar with Dom planet names, the GE could render uninhabitable Earth, Vulcan, and Mars relatively easily. On the way out they could destroy the Mars shipyards, Antarese shipyards, etc. This will win the war, as the Fed can't fight or coordinate anymore, with most of their industry gone and their politcal and military leadership decapitated. The prize? Thousands of planets, totally untouched by war. No casualties. A brief war. Sounds like a good deal.

And don't try this silver bullet bullshit on me. Polaron beams are a 'silver bullet' because who knows if they'll work? Destroying planets, destroying industry and leadership, will work. The Dom will either surrender, or be crippled and disorganised, which is the next best thing.

[applejack]

There's nothing therefore to show that a full photon torpedo spread wont decimate an ISD,

Well, we know how anti-matter works, so there's no mystery as to how photon torpedoes will act upon SW shields. They'll simply explode without any effect.

some speculation is necessary and the shielding appears to work on a similar level.

Well, I don't think that kind of speculation is appreciated around here. Besides, you might want to browse the main site. The differences between ST and SW shields are outlined there. There's no reason to assume they behave the same way.

The Empire doesn't worry about frequency because phased light weapons aren't used in the Wars universe, maybe upon entering the Milky Way they'll have to worry about frequencies.. who knows.

Emphasis mine. Sounds like the beginnings of an Argument from Ignorance.

More like the Empire doesn't worry about frequency because their shields aren't dependent upon them for their functionality. As opposed to ST shields that depend on them in order to let weapons fire out. I really suggest that you check out the main site. Here's a couple of links. This page outlines ST shields. Scroll down to the frequency part. This page outlines SW shields. Read up.

They've never been here, so how do they know where the pre-eminant military power is situated? They need to search, and map to make hyperspace travel in this galaxy viable.

Your opening post makes no mention of the GE having to spend time searching for the Dominion. I thought this was supposed to be a straight up fight.

Regardless of that, the dominion rule about 1/4 of the Galaxy,

Are you sure about that number?

even if the Empire dont need to hyperspace map the whole thing.. at least a quarter would need to be mapped for an effective military campaign, with the inherant difficulties of mapping for hyperspace travel. Remember in 20,000+ years there are still unmapped or poorly mapped areas of Wars space.

I don't know about the last part, but mapping can take place while the Imperial Starfleet attacks what industrial infrastructure they do find. It'll just be a matter of time before the Dominion will be annihilated as a galactic power. I can't think of anything they can do to stop the Empire.

Nowhere have I shown the slightest penchant for abuse or insults, I belive some common courtesy in response wouldn't be too hard. The moment you have to insult someone is the moment you've lost an argument. Not flaming here, just requesting the civility you claim the Trek crowd are incapable of.

Eh. Flaming is perfectly okay around here. I'm guessing you haven't been lurking for very long.

Now who's firing silver bullets? This sounds far more like what you're accusing me of than my statement was. I conceded the Empire could destroy worlds, canonically unarguable. But where is the gain in this? What does the empire spend Billions of credits for.. a dead galaxy? A war always has a purpose, and for the empire it is conquest. Destruction of resource rich worlds to "win" would be the act of a petulant 2 year old, not a power hungry emperor. The US could nuke any enemy, however their wars have a REASON, be it the spread of their political ideals or ensuring flow of resources (oil). The empire's campaign would have similar goals or rules of engagement.

Worlds themselves are plentiful in the Milky Way galaxy. Slagging the worlds of the Dominion won't hurt the Empire. Besides, it's not just the worlds that the GE wil be attacking. They'll also be going after shipyards and storage facilities. The loss of these things among other stuff will definitely hinder the Dominion's ability to wage war.

Nice selective quoting, however I never said they didn't know the Dominion existed, but they would still need to map their space. Upon arriving to an uncharted galaxy they will have to map.

It occurs to me that Mr. Wong has already proposed a solution for the Empire in his fanfic. Why couldn't the Empire just ask for or purchase local maps? I'm fairly confident the Dominion has lots of enemies and even people within the Dominion who despise their rule. It shouldn't be that hard.

[Martok]

Well, we know how anti-matter works, so there's no mystery as to how photon torpedoes will act upon SW shields. They'll simply explode without any effect.

I wasn't making a literal point based on a technological argument, I was saying that we have no evidence of a photon torpedo striking an ISD to guage the damage, we only have hypothesis based on limited facts. I agree, a full spread will on balance of probabilities do not much of anything, how ever it MAY. What I was saying was any argument about how SW or ST shields work is a furphy. The evidence we have regarding the technologies is limited, are they divergent streams of the same tech tree? Or completely divergent entities?

The only reason this is even an argument is becuase I brought up a Trek technology (Phased Polarons) which on the weight of evidence ignore deflector shields. I also stated this has NOTHING to do with frequencies as it didn't matter what frequency the Fed ships shields were set at, nor did it "punch through" shields, it didn't effect the shields and the shields didn't effect the beam.

Now whether Wars shields are immune to breach by phased polarons is an issue that appears to be being rabidly defended, I have read all information regarding shields (already had, thanks for the links though) and it seems the point is that we have no idea how shields work. I have never seen a Wars ship shot by a Phaser nor a Trek ship hit by a turbolaser, however generally accept that a Turbolaser is more brutally powerful than a phaser. Is this the end of an argument? Saying star wars shields dont use a frequency is like me saying they do (which i'm not) There's no evidence either way, like I said possibly wars ships have no need to quantify the frequency because turbolasers CANT cycle frequencies, the technology makes it totally unnecessary to worry about the frequency your shield is set to, it's set to turbolaser frequency and deflects the possibly physical component of the blast.

Well, I don't think that kind of speculation is appreciated around here.

You're kidding right? I see assumption displayed constantly, this is a debate about fiction, only so much fact is possible. Plausible assumption is the basis of almost every argument. Except that lasers dont hurt federation ships... that's canonical fact and indisputable because Picard & Riker said so

Your opening post makes no mention of the GE having to spend time searching for the Dominion. I thought this was supposed to be a straight up fight.

The first argument was that Wars ships would be hyperspacing with impunity to Milky Way homeworlds and laying waste to them with turbolasers, I countered that as an uncharted galaxy hyperspacing would be suicidal. It seems the conclusion to this is one of three possiblities.

1.The Empire doesn't map, simply makes short jumps and does sensor readings for M class planets within sensor range.

2. Empire fleet sits outside galaxy and sends millions of probe droids hyperspacing around the galaxy making maps, then returning with said maps and then hyperspaces with impunity around the galaxy.

3. Empire purchase maps of galaxy from friendly aliens.

None of these seem viable to me from a military standpoint. Obviously the Empire has limited probe droids, and the scope of mapping an entire galaxy is mind boggling. Ergo trying to system hop would be equally time consuming. As for the map.. it's going to take some hefty diplomacy to convince someone to sell you anything when you dont speak their language, are obviously hostile, dont have the currency of the system etc.. also it would need to be a Gamma quadrant race willing to betray the founders. You think the empire is brutal? The Founders released a bioweapon on a species who tried to stand up to them so they would be "marked forever", this was after the Jem'Hadar had razed their homeworld.. not a master to mess with. DS9: "The Quickening".

Wow, all this and we haven't even begun yet.

Can we at least agree that during an invasion the Empire wouldn't have time to map the galaxy in order to zap in and out of already charted systems and for some unapparent reason destroy them.

What similarities? SW cap ship shields are hull conforming. ST shields are big bubbles. SW particle shielding work well against solid objects. ST shields, not so much. (Come on now, how many times have they been smushed by asteroids or 'ramming speed'?)

Nothing shows the technology is obviously divergant, they both appear to stop similar attacks and phenomena, SW shields seem more sophisticated (hull confirming means less shield energy needed to protect same area) and more powerful (asteroids) but little different in application.

I'm being weighed down by sheer number of responses, takes forever to reply...

WW2 anyone? Stop whining - the Empire has the speed, endurance, range, firepower and nerve to simply destroy planets. Deal with it, or go pick on another group. They're nasty and powerful: they WILL kill you.

The Domionion armed forces (Jem'Hadar) are absolutely fanatical and the distruction of the founders would I agree end the war, they'd all kill themselves. However if all we say is "The Empire zoom in blow up world, war over" Then what's the point of this site? That's not an argument, obviously that's NOT what the Empire does, or why is any member of the Rebel Alliance still in existance? The Empire was engaged in a military campaign, to restore order, not a war of destruction. If the Empire is trying to conquer a people, and show that "we just kill you all coz we're bad" then resistance will be fanatical.. there is still a ground campaign and occupation involved in a conquest.
Also the Domionion has never surrendered in any battle in the last 10,000 years (Weyoun 8 "The Dogs of War" DS9), they are not the candy ass federation, it'd take more than a world or two going pop to make them surrender.

*breaths* Ok, someone elses turn i'm spent and possibly getting incoherant. Where the fuck are the other trekkies to throw me a fricken bone here? Or are they all over at the 'other' site (St-v-Sw) verbally masturbating and engaging in mutual appreciation?

[Ghost Rider]

Small note...if you are confident that the Dominion are going to win, present numbers.

Such as firepower and speed.

Phased Polarion is a technobabble term to circumvent the Federation shields, so we can have the Klingons take center stage until they can find a way around. If you define tactics in that matter, you are thinking more like a rabid fan then any sense of being logical.

[Karza]

Well, we know how anti-matter works, so there's no mystery as to how photon torpedoes will act upon SW shields. They'll simply explode without any effect.

I wasn't making a literal point based on a technological argument, I was saying that we have no evidence of a photon torpedo striking an ISD to guage the damage, we only have hypothesis based on limited facts. I agree, a full spread will on balance of probabilities do not much of anything, how ever it MAY.

We don't have evidence of a photon torp hitting an ISD, but we have the next best thing: firepower calcs. And those say that ISD shields are practically invulnerable to photon torps. Of course there are any number of maybes we could argue over, but that just isn't sensible.

Saying star wars shields dont use a frequency is like me saying they do (which i'm not) There's no evidence either way, like I said possibly wars ships have no need to quantify the frequency because turbolasers CANT cycle frequencies, the technology makes it totally unnecessary to worry about the frequency your shield is set to, it's set to turbolaser frequency and deflects the possibly physical component of the blast.

There's a reason we assume that SW shields have no frequency: no such thing has ever been mentioned or observed. Same goes for turbolasers.

[SirNitram]

You know, you go to the trouble of finding a quote for the speed of an Imperial warship in uncharted, bumpy territory, and the fanboys ignore it. Very annoying.

[Martok]

[/quote]You know, you go to the trouble of finding a quote for the speed of an Imperial warship in uncharted, bumpy territory, and the fanboys ignore it. Very annoying.

The Milky Way galaxy's core has a diameter of c.100,000 light years. Therefore for a VSD to make a straight line travel from one side of the central disk to the other is c. 104 days. This is to merely fly in a straight line.

Remember our galaxy is a three dimensional central disc with spiral arms extending out, the thickness of the central disc is c. 10,000 light years.

The galaxy also contains 200 billion to 400 billion stars to plot, and scan for class M planets, life forms and civilizations. So lets can the omnipotant Empire's ability to find shipyards, homeworlds etc "... [hasn't] given you clairvoyance enough to find the Rebel's hidden base" Even the most powerful dark jedi couldn't find a hidden base, the empire are unfortunately going to have to rely on some other intelligence method, the fog of war is a real bitch isn't it?

[Ghost Rider]

You know, you go to the trouble of finding a quote for the speed of an Imperial warship in uncharted, bumpy territory, and the fanboys ignore it. Very annoying.

The Milky Way galaxy's core has a diameter of c.100,000 light years. Therefore for a VSD to make a straight line travel from one side of the central disk to the other is c. 104 days. This is to merely fly in a straight line.

Remember our galaxy is a three dimensional central disc with spiral arms extending out, the thickness of the central disc is c. 10,000 light years.

The galaxy also contains 200 billion to 400 billion stars to plot, and scan for class M planets, life forms and civilizations. So lets can the omnipotant Empire's ability to find shipyards, homeworlds etc "... [hasn't] given you clairvoyance enough to find the Rebel's hidden base" Even the most powerful dark jedi couldn't find a hidden base, the empire are unfortunately going to have to rely on some other intelligence method, the fog of war is a real bitch isn't it?

Y'know...this does nothing to refute Nitram's point so here it's up on display because you don't seem to grasp refutation.

Broadly, yes. Here's the ten second attempt to give you an idea of how it breaks down.

An ISD's comm system allows it to sift through the entirity of subspace in a sphere around it, to 100LY. In realtime. This is just for picking up subspace comms which are then punted to be decrypted.

Sensors and comms are always tied to each other, so we'll use this as a baseline. This means that an ISD can haul up to 100LY/hour and still see things coming with lots of time to maneuver around them. The slowest speed attributed to an ISD that I recall come from the Thrawn Trilogy, where, in a nasty and uncharted section of space(Rather like, oh, the Milky Way in that respect) a VSD is hauling around 40-50 LY an hour.

To place this in context, a modern Federation ship at maximum warp takes five days to cover 40LY(VOY's 'Scorpion', Chakotay and Seven).

In an hour the Empire's outdated equipment covers what the Dominion's main baseline does in most of a week.


Now consider that all you need for starcharts is a telescope and time. Or more precisely, optical sensors and a big computer. ISD's have both.

Now tell me how does a single Rebel base = 1/4 of the galaxy of controlled space again?

[PeZook]

As for the map.. it's going to take some hefty diplomacy to convince someone to sell you anything when you dont speak their language, are obviously hostile, dont have the currency of the system etc.

Uhh, hello? Since when trade was stopped by not speaking the language?
There were hundreds of civilizations in Earth history that traded with each other just fine, despite their languages being completely different. Currency? Just give the Ferengi a hyperdrive equipped shuttle. They'd piss their pants with joy, and give you anything, blowjobs included.

also it would need to be a Gamma quadrant race willing to betray the founders. You think the empire is brutal? The Founders released a bioweapon on a species who tried to stand up to them so they would be "marked forever", this was after the Jem'Hadar had razed their homeworld.. not a master to mess with. DS9: "The Quickening".

Uhh, yeah. How exactly would the Founders beat their subjects down when the Empire will most likely offer protection to their homeworlds in exchange for maps? It would be kinda hard to abuse them when there's an ISD sitting in orbit, or some nasty SW defence system just waiting to get back at the Dominion for centuries of occupation.

[Stravo]

A couple of points that I wanted to address in this debate:

Dominion Phased Polaron Beams - yes, they have shield piercing effects on Federation and Alpha Quadrant shield systems in general. This is because of a certain frequency the beams project on that allow them to pierce federation shields because they like most other Alpha quadrant shield technology is frequency dependent. Find the frequency that the shields don't work as well on and you too can have a shield piercing weapon. See Generations for this effect created using a standard Klingon photon torpedo.

In Call to Arms this shield piercing effect is defeated and never spoken of again in the entire Dominion War. The beam weapons are still rather devatstaing against older ships like the warbirds and Miranda class ships but in the end they no longer pierce shields because the Federation figured out how to defeat that effect by adjusting their shield harmonics. Weyoun expresses complete bewilderment at this Federation technological feat but Cardasians are not surprised. Frequency dependent shields have the advantage of being very flexible and adjustable. An advantage the federation has been using to great effect for decades in the Apha Quadrant, after all Federation defensive technology is second to none among the great powers.

All of this rhetoric sets up my next point. No where, in any source, any film, etc are Star Wars shields frequency dependent. There are no orders to adjust the freqency of the shields or to have ship board weapons adjust their frequency to better penetrate shields. Star Wars shields are simply that - force fields that need to be overcome by brute force. The kind of brute force that the shields on something like a Stardestroyer are designed to deal with are orders of magniutude greater than the firepower a group of starships can bring to bear ket alone one. So this idea that Dominion weapons can pierce Imperial shields - later an ability that was taken away by a simple trick of retuning shields - is quite laughable.

Secondly - the Imperials can't map the galaxy so quickly. Firstly I didn't realize there was a time limit for this versus. The Imperials can sit out in the Delta quadrant for all we care and meticulously map out the galaxy for weeks, the Dominion couldn't touch them.

But more importantly 5 stardestroyers were able to completely track and search worlds in the Outer Rim and find the Rebel Base on Hoth with just probe droids.(ESB) Mapping wide swaths of relatively empty space shouldn't be a problem at all. Time wil not be a problem here.


In addtion to the above two points frankly The Dominion is not a great fighting force by any means. Dominion fans tend to dramtically overstate their effectiveness. They had the advantage in the early part of the war because of their secret sensor array in a nebula on their side of space that told them where the Federation was going to hit allowing them to reinforce those lines. Knowing where your enemy is going to hit gives you a decided advantage especially when you already have the edge in numbers.

In Sacrifice of Angels they allow an entire Klingon fleet to sneak up into their flanks into firing range and are quickly routed thereafter.

In the Battle for Chintoka they rely on a wonder weapon of the week to protect a foothold into their space instead of rallying ships to support these wonder weapons.

In Battle of AR-whatever they blindly run screaming into enemy fire. No finesse, no grace, no fucking skill. These are the elite of the DOminion shocktroops and they sucked. (Defeated by men in pajamas who were listening to Sinatra records for fuck's sake. No Jem Hedar fanboy should ever raise his voice again in defense of these morons)

The Dominion defenses for Cardasia Prime were peirced in a single battle and there was no where else for them to go. No rings of increasing resitance, no traps, ambushes, delaying defenses, counter attacks. They simply threw up a wall in front of the incoming Federation fleet and never even once considered that their allies the Cardasians whose citizens they were slaughtering back home just might turn on them.

So when it comes to battle the Dominion is only marginally better than the Federation. The Imperial hierarchy has officers who are verterans of a bloody galactic war that fought using real tactics and strategy.

[SirNitram]

You know, you go to the trouble of finding a quote for the speed of an Imperial warship in uncharted, bumpy territory, and the fanboys ignore it. Very annoying.

The Milky Way galaxy's core has a diameter of c.100,000 light years. Therefore for a VSD to make a straight line travel from one side of the central disk to the other is c. 104 days. This is to merely fly in a straight line.

Well holy shit, you're an outright liar. There's.. Well, it's not a surprise at all, actually.

The Milky Way is closer to 100,000 or so Lightyears. Period. Not the core.

So, a VSD at the lowest speed recorded with no charts whatsoever can get across in a hundred days.

The Federation, equal in speed to the Dominion, needs seventy years.

Are you getting it yet?

Remember our galaxy is a three dimensional central disc with spiral arms extending out, the thickness of the central disc is c. 10,000 light years.

The galaxy also contains 200 billion to 400 billion stars to plot, and scan for class M planets, life forms and civilizations. So lets can the omnipotant Empire's ability to find shipyards, homeworlds etc "... [hasn't] given you clairvoyance enough to find the Rebel's hidden base" Even the most powerful dark jedi couldn't find a hidden base, the empire are unfortunately going to have to rely on some other intelligence method, the fog of war is a real bitch isn't it?

You are aware that any planet they want to destroy will be radiating subspace signals? Do you want to know how long the Empire has had subspace FTL sensors? It's on the order of tens of thousands of years. The Empire's canonical abilities include traversing galaxies in hours; I was nice enough to show that it's merely dozens of times faster when working off realtime sensor feedback.

You screech and whine about how getting charts isn't viable, but you haven't shown how. There's no reason to assume that the local Ferrengi charts aren't good(What, they aren't going to include moons?), etc. And if not.. Well, we know damn well the Dominion can't get to the Empire fast enough to be a real threat, so they sit back and crunch numbers. The SW Galaxy, where a trashcan can store data on hundreds of millions of objects and their gravity sensors, and still have room for detailed plans of a 160km battlestation and a sense of humour, can handle it.

[Petrosjko]

Nowhere have I shown the slightest penchant for abuse or insults, I belive some common courtesy in response wouldn't be too hard. The moment you have to insult someone is the moment you've lost an argument. Not flaming here, just requesting the civility you claim the Trek crowd are incapable of.

Insults are common currency around here. If you're going to engage in these debates, be prepared for some discourtesy.

Furthermore, and insult in no way invalidates an argument. If I were to say 'There are a hundred centimeters in a meter, asshat!', does the factual correctness of my statement become invalidated by the insult?

[Petrosjko]

The fuck? Thought this was a one-page topic. Disregard last post.

[Martok]

Well holy shit, you're an outright liar. There's.. Well, it's not a surprise at all, actually.

The Milky Way is closer to 100,000 or so Lightyears. Period. Not the core.

How about asking me to CLARIFY a point that seems, wrong.. who knows maybe I made an error in word choice, maybe you have misinterpreted. Are people on here so impolite they throw insults and accusations as soon as a Trek fan appears?

The Milky way is surrounded by a cloud or halo of stars that contain about 2% of the stars in the galaxy. So I understand how my use of CORE was probably not a good word choice. Please substitute CORE for DISK in all cases.

n Battle of AR-whatever they blindly run screaming into enemy fire. No finesse, no grace, no fucking skill. These are the elite of the DOminion shocktroops and they sucked. (Defeated by men in pajamas who were listening to Sinatra records for fuck's sake. No Jem Hedar fanboy should ever raise his voice again in defense of these morons)

In Return of the Jedi an "entire legion" of the emperors "best troops" are massacred by teddy bears with stone age weapons. Let's not confuse bad writing or plot constructs with the debate. Jem'Hadar troops armed with personal cloaking fields and disruptors that cause death even with minor injuries are going to be more than a match for the average imperial.

The imperial heirarchy is stymied by the tactically useless emperor, much as The thousand year reich was stymied by Hitler. Remember the Galactic empire survived maybe 30 years before the Rebel Alliance defeated them. A 30 year reign is inglorious at best. The Dominion has reigned the Gamma quadrant for 10,000 years as a brutal military occupier.

You screech and whine about how getting charts isn't viable, but you haven't shown how. There's no reason to assume that the local Ferrengi charts aren't good, blah, blah

The Ferengi have charted the Gamma quadrant?

In regards to the Imperials have soo much time to sit around, it's 104 days to travel in a simple straight line through our galaxy for a VSD, this is assuming they can travel as fast through completely unknown areas. Couple this with min. 200,000,000,000 possible star systems to scan and possible light resistance you're looking at YEARS to simple map the lay of the land. In that time you have to keep morale up, feed your troops, refuel, constantly drill etc.. unviable. The Empire force will go in slow and methodical, not sit back for years drawing freaking maps.

If i ignore points, i'm not just being an ass and not wanting to face an argument, it takes AGES to read, do some research and reply to the posts of one person.. let alone the pack of wolves baying at my heels. Like I said TREKKIES WERE THE FUCK ARE YOU? Surely you lot haven't scared them ALL away? I mean you're not THAT bad

[Martok]

Furthermore, and insult in no way invalidates an argument. If I were to say 'There are a hundred centimeters in a meter, asshat!', does the factual correctness of my statement become invalidated by the insult?

LOL! Of course the fact is correct, however the chance of getting a reasoned argument dimishes exponentially to the amount of insults flung about.

If I was being rude or insulting I would expect it in return.. but i'm trying to stay civilised for the moment.

If I replied to your statement "Don't be a fuckknuckle, there's 1000 millimeter in a meter you gormless hen fucker" I also have factual correctness however the chance of us remaining on topic and not simply flaming the shit out of each other is pretty low.

I'm reasonably thick skinned, but I was definately raised to believe that those who flung insults in the place of reason, logic or fact have invalidated their argument, flinging insults ALONG with fact/logic & reason has me stumped though. Give me a while to get used to it

[SirNitram]

Well holy shit, you're an outright liar. There's.. Well, it's not a surprise at all, actually.

The Milky Way is closer to 100,000 or so Lightyears. Period. Not the core.

How about asking me to CLARIFY a point that seems, wrong.. who knows maybe I made an error in word choice, maybe you have misinterpreted. Are people on here so impolite they throw insults and accusations as soon as a Trek fan appears?

No, we throw insults and accusation as soon as someone says something completely and utterly wrong. Did you fucking read the banner?

The Milky way is surrounded by a cloud or halo of stars that contain about 2% of the stars in the galaxy. So I understand how my use of CORE was probably not a good word choice. Please substitute CORE for DISK in all cases.

In other words, you knew not a single dingleberry worth of data, and got caught. Big surprise.

BTW. The whole idea of that big halo being part of the galaxy is only confirmed for Andromeda. Nothing supports it for the Milky Way yet.

Do you have anything to refute the fact we're talking about 104 days vs. 70 years? Well, no, it appears you don't. Because you scurry onwards like a rat.

You screech and whine about how getting charts isn't viable, but you haven't shown how. There's no reason to assume that the local Ferrengi charts aren't good, blah, blah

The Ferengi have charted the Gamma quadrant?

Ferrengi lack telescopes? The Federation lacks telescopes? Hrm, I wonder how long you'll continue this facade...

In regards to the Imperials have soo much time to sit around, it's 104 days to travel in a simple straight line through our galaxy for a VSD, this is assuming they can travel as fast through completely unknown areas. Couple this with min. 200,000,000,000 possible star systems to scan and possible light resistance you're looking at YEARS to simple map the lay of the land. In that time you have to keep morale up, feed your troops, refuel, constantly drill etc.. unviable. The Empire force will go in slow and methodical, not sit back for years drawing freaking maps.

Again, they have subspace sensors. THe planets that need curbstomping will emit gallons of it. Home in on the signals.

If i ignore points, i'm not just being an ass and not wanting to face an argument, it takes AGES to read, do some research and reply to the posts of one person.. let alone the pack of wolves baying at my heels. Like I said TREKKIES WERE THE FUCK ARE YOU? Surely you lot haven't scared them ALL away? I mean you're not THAT bad

And here's your clue for today:

We are Trekkies.

We can cite back episode names and places. We grew up on Kirk, Spock, and Bones. We know more about the series than you do, and we have all had our private anguish at what was done to it at the hands of mass marketing.

We just have looked at the canonical data from both series and reached the obvious conclusion. One travels the galaxy in hours, destroys planets as part of interrogation, fields millions of starships, and uses actual tactics and armour on planetary raids. The conclusion is obvious.

[Stravo]

n Battle of AR-whatever they blindly run screaming into enemy fire. No finesse, no grace, no fucking skill. These are the elite of the DOminion shocktroops and they sucked. (Defeated by men in pajamas who were listening to Sinatra records for fuck's sake. No Jem Hedar fanboy should ever raise his voice again in defense of these morons)

In Return of the Jedi an "entire legion" of the emperors "best troops" are massacred by teddy bears with stone age weapons. Let's not confuse bad writing or plot constructs with the debate. Jem'Hadar troops armed with personal cloaking fields and disruptors that cause death even with minor injuries are going to be more than a match for the average imperial.

Really? Care to point to when this massacre occurred, because I saw teddy bears dying and running away right up to the point when Chewbacca steals an AT-ST and begins using it on the Imperials. The stone age weapons were failing, the Ewoks were losing right up until the AT-ST joined the fray and the other units ran into prepared ambushes specifically deisgned to defeat them. (rolling trees, walnut cracking trapo'doom)

You want to see a massacre? In Ar-whatever the Dominion troops were running blindly into enemy fire, walked through a mine field and were killed to a fucking man. THAT was a massacre not Imperial troops scattered thoughout a forest hunting down a fleeing enemy that is an expert in camouflage (they snuck up on a Jedi earlier in the movie) and who is trying to lead them away from the bunker.

And despite all of the turns in combat the bunker was still sealed up and that was the goal afterall, not to kill Imperial troops but to destroy the bunker. The battle was lost until Han tricked the Bunker into opening up and did he use a stone age weapon? No ass. He used modern equipement to do it. Watch the fucking battle instead of trotting out that old horse.

The imperial heirarchy is stymied by the tactically useless emperor, much as The thousand year reich was stymied by Hitler. Remember the Galactic empire survived maybe 30 years before the Rebel Alliance defeated them. A 30 year reign is inglorious at best. The Dominion has reigned the Gamma quadrant for 10,000 years as a brutal military occupier.

So let me get this straight. The founders who were more than willing to walk away from the Alpha Quadrant as long as they got Odo were tactically superior to the Emperor who seized power from a million world Republic and defeated a 10,000 yo organization of uber fighters numbering in the thousands? This Emperor who led quintillions and if not for the betrayal of his most trusted servant and apprentice would have done so for enternity using his cloning techniques is inferior to a group who stopped a war because Odo said it would be 'bad'. The Emperor loses because it is the end result of a millennia old propehcy at the hands of one of the most powerful force users in the galaxy. The DOminion loses because Odo makes them feel guilty about what they've done.

Yeah, Ok, good one. I needed that laugh.

[Crown]

How about asking me to CLARIFY a point that seems, wrong.. who knows maybe I made an error in word choice, maybe you have misinterpreted. Are people on here so impolite they throw insults and accusations as soon as a Trek fan appears?

Oh shut the fuck you whinny little idiot. People are going to 'spice' up their posts any way they see fit, so long as they actually make a valid fucking point it makes no fucking difference.

THEY. ARE. JUST. WORDS.

Get over it, or Mike will ban your arse for it, he has a very fucking low tolerance for people who need to be told again, agian, and oh look, again - that swearing (or flaming) is perfectly acceptable on this board so long as it is backed up with a fucking point.

I've sworn at Mike, he's sworn at me, but as long as we make valid points it makes no fucking difference. Do you understand? Or do you need to be told again?

In Return of the Jedi an "entire legion" of the emperors "best troops" are massacred by teddy bears with stone age weapons. Let's not confuse bad writing or plot constructs with the debate. Jem'Hadar troops armed with personal cloaking fields and disruptors that cause death even with minor injuries are going to be more than a match for the average imperial.

Yaha - whatever dipshit.

First, the Ewoks were getting their fucking asses handed to them until Chewie got on the AT-ST - had you bothered to watch the movie - and RotJ does not automatically dis-qualify the other movies on Imperial ground war aptitude; AotC, RotS and TESB.

Unlike the Dominion's clear and established track record of being imbeciles.

The imperial heirarchy is stymied by the tactically useless emperor, much as The thousand year reich was stymied by Hitler. Remember the Galactic empire survived maybe 30 years before the Rebel Alliance defeated them. A 30 year reign is inglorious at best. The Dominion has reigned the Gamma quadrant for 10,000 years as a brutal military occupier.

The SW galaxy has been in a technological stasis for 25,000 years. Ergo when someone says the Empire has had 'Y' tech for 'X' years, they are including previous government(s) that ruled the Empire (OR, Sith Empire, etc).

Even so, I don't understand the point of discussing who is older, when the simple matter is that the Empire will crush the Dominion like yesterday's garbage.

The Ferengi have charted the Gamma quadrant?

A valid point.

In regards to the Imperials have soo much time to sit around, it's 104 days to travel in a simple straight line through our galaxy for a VSD, this is assuming they can travel as fast through completely unknown areas. Couple this with min. 200,000,000,000 possible star systems to scan and possible light resistance you're looking at YEARS to simple map the lay of the land. In that time you have to keep morale up, feed your troops, refuel, constantly drill etc.. unviable. The Empire force will go in slow and methodical, not sit back for years drawing freaking maps.

OK. Listen up; the figure for the VSD speed was taken from an example where the space was off the charts, so yes they can travel this fast, normally Imperial speeds are orders of magnitude faster.

And no, you're not looking at YEARS, you're looking at a couple of months tops, since VSD aren't going to be doing the mapping; probe droids are - and had you watched AotC you would know that the sheer amount of probe droids that can be produced by a single planet is easily enough to map the Gamma Quadrant (or where ever the fuck the Dominion is).

If i ignore points, i'm not just being an ass and not wanting to face an argument, it takes AGES to read, do some research and reply to the posts of one person.. let alone the pack of wolves baying at my heels. Like I said TREKKIES WERE THE FUCK ARE YOU? Surely you lot haven't scared them ALL away? I mean you're not THAT bad

You'll be fine, as long as you stop pulling the 'woe is me' shit everytime somebody swears. Like I said, they're just words, get over it. Here let me help desensitize you;

Fuck, fucker, fuck-head, moron, idiot, dipshit, hat-fucker, cock-goblin, ass-wipe, asshole, dickhead, big gaping vagina, lying shitstain, cock weed, fuck-face, Trektard, retard, dog-face, anus-breath, imperfect abortion, blight on humanity, double penetrated fist fucker, drooling troll breath, etc, etc.


I hope that helped.

[Martok]

the Ewoks were losing right up until the AT-ST joined the fray

Oh terribly sorry.. A tribe of ewoks and a Wookie, damned sorry I forgot the Wookie, defeated "A legion of my finest troops".

The ewoks were doing just fine against Storm Troopers, their flint tipped arrows fired with unerring accuracy at all the weakest points of the trooper armour, their little stone clubs bashing in the 'armoured' heads of the "elite" troops. Give me a fuckin break, I may be guilty of logic leaps when I dont have a fact but where the fact exists at least acknowledge it.

Do Jem'Hadar act stupidly? Yes, they're more than capable of it. When Jem'Hadar think they will fail the founders they go fanatical, also they are drug dependant and White Deprivation causes odd behaviour.
There is enough anecdotal evidence within DS9 of the Jem'Hadar being fearsome warriors to discount one or two "stupid" episodes.

Stormtroopers generally are feared throughout the Galaxy, I only make the point about the ewoks (sorry and a wookie) to show that plot constructs are more important to writers than maintaining the "truth" of their universe for our benefit. IF you use examples to show that Jem'Hadar are stupid moronic fighters then I will bring up the Ewoks (and the wookie)

[SirNitram]

the Ewoks were losing right up until the AT-ST joined the fray

Oh terribly sorry.. A tribe of ewoks and a Wookie, damned sorry I forgot the Wookie, defeated "A legion of my finest troops".

I'm sorry. Perhaps you can tell me what movie you saw? We're talking about 'Return Of The Jedi', by George Lucas. Maybe you can enlighten us to this completely hallucinatory experience you're referring to.

[Darth Wong]

Oh terribly sorry.. A tribe of ewoks and a Wookie, damned sorry I forgot the Wookie, defeated "A legion of my finest troops".

Do you know how to count? Look at the men in the clearing and count them; it's a few dozen men. That is not a legion. The rest of the legion is at the main base, not this back entrance. They probably fucked up like the Nazis at Normandy and assumed that this was some sort of feint.

The ewoks were doing just fine against Storm Troopers, their flint tipped arrows fired with unerring accuracy at all the weakest points of the trooper armour, their little stone clubs bashing in the 'armoured' heads of the "elite" troops. Give me a fuckin break, I may be guilty of logic leaps when I dont have a fact but where the fact exists at least acknowledge it.

Acknowledge what? Your ignorance of the fact that a vastly outnumbered stormtrooper force was still winning despite playing nice and not killing their captives right away, not to mention only having a few dozen men to begin with?

Do Jem'Hadar act stupidly? Yes, they're more than capable of it. When Jem'Hadar think they will fail the founders they go fanatical, also they are drug dependant and White Deprivation causes odd behaviour.

There is enough anecdotal evidence within DS9 of the Jem'Hadar being fearsome warriors to discount one or two "stupid" episodes.

Name one example of the Jem'Hadar being "fearsome warriors". Note: hand to hand combat does not win wars.

[Stravo]

You know what bugs me about dishonest cunts like this in a debate? I go through all the trouble of writing up a counter point to their lame ass shit and what they do is snip away all my work to expose a single sentence or in this case a phrase form a fucking sentence to hack away at it in the hopes no one notices all the previous fucking PARAGRAPHS supporting the argument in the first place.. So here, let me return the favor cumstain.

the Ewoks were losing right up until the AT-ST joined the fray

Oh terribly sorry..

Concession accepted Bitch.