Would the ISA stand a chance vs the Borg?

[Omega-13]

Would the ISA (from b5) be able to put up a fight vs the Borg? the tactical idiots of sci-fi.

[Master of Ossus]

Probably not. Their power generation and weapons (going off of the Starfury) is limited. On the other hand, it is possible that their psychics would give them an edge. I grow tired of that being the hiding place of B5ers, though. "The telepaths would save us...." I guess it is kind of true, though. I don't even think that the First Ones would be able to stop the Borg, except for their telepathy.

[David]

I don't think even the telepaths would do them any good. The borg have probably assimilated species that were telepathic, so they could counter the effects of a telepath. Plus the telepaths of B5 have problems invading one mind that is in pain or some other stress, just think what would happen if they went into the borg's mind, which is billions, if not trillions, of minds acting as one.

[Stravo]

Plus B-5 telepaths need to be in line of sight of their target. If they can't see the drones in the Cube how can they effect them? People overestimate the power of B-5 telepaths, they are actually fairly limited, and when you think about it, their sole purpose was to counter the Shadows, the Vorlons fashioned them like weapons, a weapon with one purpose.

[Master of Ossus]

I know that telepaths aren't THAT impressive, but they do represent a significant step above most other Sci-fi genres. Actually, though, once the Borg began assimilating them B5 would have little chance of pulling out a victory.

The Vorlons are REALLY cool, though.

[Shadow WarChief]

They don't need to have exact line of sight from teep to target for them to work.

For example, Lyta didn't actually need to be looking directly at the Battle Crab's processing being in order to jam it. She looked at the Crab, and jammed it.

[adam warlock]

For example, Lyta didn't actually need to be looking directly at the Battle Crab's processing being in order to jam it. She looked at the Crab, and jammed it.

or when she awakened the shadow enhanced telepaths..aboard the omegas orbiting wars, while she was on the ground.. or even better when she took control of everyperson within the market, season 5 "wheel of fire" before she got arrested.

though this is pretty much high end teep..nevertheless lyta did have some problems with some p12s ganging up on her.

The borg have probably assimilated species that were telepathic, so they could counter the effects of a telepath

not to sure about this.. the borg have never shown to go up against a telepath or vice versa.. the only telepaths they were shown to go up against where species 8472.. and we know how that ended up.. even then its not because of species's telepathy..

Plus the telepaths of B5 have problems invading one mind that is in pain or some other stress, just think what would happen if they went into the borg's mind, which is billions, if not trillions, of minds acting as one.

but the nature of b5 telepaths is such that from they get go (as soon as they powers start manifesting itself) they have to learn to shut out/ignore the NOISE.. noise being the stray thoughts from anyone, everyone within vicinity of them.

[Stravo]

They don't need to have exact line of sight from teep to target for them to work.

For example, Lyta didn't actually need to be looking directly at the Battle Crab's processing being in order to jam it. She looked at the Crab, and jammed it.

or when she awakened the shadow enhanced telepaths..aboard the omegas orbiting wars, while she was on the ground.. or even better when she took control of everyperson within the market, season 5 "wheel of fire" before she got arrested.

though this is pretty much high end teep..nevertheless lyta did have some problems with some p12s ganging up on her

Originally Posted by Adam Warlock


You guys have cited to Lyta as examples of the no line of sight rule...she was altered by the Vorlons, she was no longer a true teep, she was a doomsday device of teeps.....she cannot be used as an example of violating the rule...it was consistently stated throughout the series that Teeps have LOS limitation on their power.

[Solid Snake]

I don't even think that the First Ones would be able to stop the Borg, except for their telepathy.

Personally, i think the shadows and the vorlons would kick the living hell out of the borg. The borg just.... suck. I really hate the damn borg. Whenever ratings were low in TNG or VOY, bring the borg in! It'll raise the ratings, no matter how stupid the story is.
I just think the Vorlon/Shadow conflict with Earth caught in the middle is a great plot, rather then: "you will be assimilated, even though we suck horribly"

[Solid Snake]

One thing i forgot to mention:
if we see any borg references in ENT, im going to kill the star trek writers for sucking horribly.

[Master of Ossus]

I don't even think that the First Ones would be able to stop the Borg, except for their telepathy.

Personally, i think the shadows and the vorlons would kick the living hell out of the borg. The borg just.... suck. I really hate the damn borg. Whenever ratings were low in TNG or VOY, bring the borg in! It'll raise the ratings, no matter how stupid the story is.
I just think the Vorlon/Shadow conflict with Earth caught in the middle is a great plot, rather then: "you will be assimilated, even though we suck horribly"

I agree, it was a GREAT plot, especially since the Vorlons and the Shadows had been manipulating people for so long (hence, the Third Age). It was also a GREAT plot when compared with even the best Voyager/TNG episodes. Unfortunately, though, I don't see how the Shadows and Vorlons could have stopped the Borg. The firepower on B5 ships just isn't great enough compared with some of the ships in ST, including the Borg.

[Master of Ossus]

One thing i forgot to mention:
if we see any borg references in ENT, im going to kill the star trek writers for sucking horribly.

Berman's mine.

[Wicked Pilot]

Here's my take on the situation, please feel free to critize...

I think the ISA could hold their own if on the defensive, especially if they have the full support of the Mimbari fleet. The Mimbari cruisers are very good at destroying things, and I would guess they could conceivably take out a cube with maybe a three or four to one advantage.
The Whitestar fleet, while limited in number, have a serious armor advantage, which is especially useful against beam weapons. They could jump straight out of hyperspace and swarm a cube, pounding it from all sides. Most of the Borg's fire, assuming it's not too powerful, would be absorbed by the Whitestar's skin. And since the Whitestar is based partly on organic technology, it should be well resistant to assimulation.

Probably the biggest advantage the ISA has over the Borg is hyperspace. The Borg will have no way of detecting approaching fleets, or follow retreating forces. If the Borg don't know where ISA space is located, the ISA fleets can maraude at will without having to worry about defending home turf. They can go as deep into Borg territory as they so desire with total impunity.

As stated before, telepaths are no factor. They are only known to work against the Shadows because of their specific craft design. And since the Borg don't travel in hyperspace, telepaths are of no use there either.

In summary, I thing the ISA could hold their own if their space is invaded, but could easily take the fight to the Borg if their home territory stays concealed.

[Master of Ossus]

ISA has an advantage in terms of hyperspace, but their ships are sluggish compared with Borg cubes and the White Star's armor is useless against torpedoes (which the Borg use). I agree that hyperspace is an advantage, but I think that the inability of ISA ships to stand up to the Borg, coupled with the Borg's willingness to absorb casualties, would prevent the ISA from winning the war. Compared with cubes, their firepower is small, their agility in their biggest ships TENDS to be sluggish, and their shields and armor are minimal. I do not think that this would be an EASY victory for the Borg, but I also don't think that the outcome would ever be in doubt.

[Graeme Dice]

Here's my take on the situation, please feel free to critize...

I think the ISA could hold their own if on the defensive, especially if they have the full support of the Mimbari fleet. The Mimbari cruisers are very good at destroying things, and I would guess they could conceivably take out a cube with maybe a three or four to one advantage.

I call bullshit. A 2 megaton nuke destroyed the Black Star, and Minbari weapons do less damage than that.

The Whitestar fleet, while limited in number have a serious armor advantage, which is especially useful against beam weapons. They could jump straight out of hyperspace and swarm a cube, pounding it from all sides. Most of the Borg's fire, assuming it's not too powerful, would be absorbed by the Whitestar's skin. And since the Whitestar is based partly on organic technology, it should be well resistant to assimulation.

It's based on organic beings from this galaxy. I'd expect the borg to be able to directly assimilate the ships and not even have to worry about the crew.

[Crown]

Can I get some references on each sides firepower please!!

Just so y'all know my sci-fi heirarchy looks like this;

1. Star Wars & Space: Above and Beyond

2. Babylon 5

3. Anything else

LAST. Star Trek

So as you can see, I would love to say that B5 totally butt-@#$%s Star Trek, however I really don't now all the relavent information to accurately and responsably post in this thread...

[Crown]

... What the hell that's never stopped me before!

ISA wins!

[seanrobertson]

Would the ISA (from b5) be able to put up a fight vs the Borg? the tactical idiots of sci-fi.

Nah. I think the Dominion could whip the ISA. 3,000 Centauri warships gave the ISA hell for awhile and, while the Centauri can make ships
with teeth, I'd take one Jem'Hadar battleship over ten Cent. battlecruisers.

Borg are tactically inept--or more to the point are *s*l*o*w*. This is somewhat excusable in the sense that they don't HAVE to react fast
against most of their enemies. Like Ray Liotta's character said of
Paul Sorvino's in the movie "Goodfellas"

"Paulie might've moved slow...but that was because Paulie didn't have to move for anybody!"

The Borg are only as "stupid" or smart as their enemies, or those they
want to assimilate. Barring a few very odd choices--e.g., sending only
one cube to assimilate Earth when two or three would have definitely
succeeded--Borg tactics are about standard for Star Trek. Much of
the rest of their apparent ineptness can be explained by their incredible
arrogance (though it still IS ineptness).

Anyway, what the Borg don't have in creativity they do have in sheer
power, numbers, and speed. Again, that's somewhat relative in a manner
of speaking, but next to the ISA, this holds true.

Size? Borg ships are far more massive than anything the ISA has ever produced. The most extreme example I can think of is that the 5 mile-long B5 massed 2.5 million metric tons...what a five MAN Borg scoutship massed in "I,Borg"!!!!!

Note, I said "extreme." But it's still correct.

Speed? Borg ships can cover over 5.1 light years in exactly 60 seconds
with conventional transwarp drives (not conduits or through the transwarp
hub highways). Though this is perhaps sustainable only for short periods
or the like, it's millions of c. The fastest ships in the ISA take weeks to
cross the galaxy, so they're at least two orders of magnitude slower.

Firepower and defenses? A cube can dust 40 Federation starships and/or take the equivalent of greater than all of the E-D's photorps (my interpretation: ask for more info) without sustaining any visible damage--even ROCKING in the latter case! Next to a Victory-class Destroyer
or Minbari Warcruiser, this is staggering IMO, far better than being blown
up by the EMP from a pair of 2 megaton nukes or more impressive than
slowly shattering large asteroids.

Also, since cubes have phaser-like weapons, they'll be FAR more effective in excuting orbital bombardments when needed. Contrast this to the
Excalibur failing to singe trees a few meters from a planetary-based
target with her main guns. Heaven forbid that the Borg had locked a
tractor beam on that site. We all know what happened to entire cities
at the Neutral Zone, J-25, and other colonies: they were scooped into
orbit! I doubt Galen would still be standing calmly next to the targetted
site after that.

Troops/ship? As far as I know, the most drones known to be on a single
cube is in "Scorpion," with 179,000 onboard the ship the Hansens first
studied. In comparison, Omega-class destroyers have a crew
of about 1,000. A Borg ship could potentially overwhelm most ISA
ships simply by beaming over large contingents of drones.

Fleet constitution is important as well. We've seen far more big Borg
ships than we have little dinky probes or scouts. The typical ISA ship,
however, won't be a VCD or Minbari Warcruiser--not even a WS. Remember
Liandra?

The Borg would slaughter the ISA. In spite of the fact that the latter
is probably a more "intelligent" military organization than anything
in the Trek galaxy, they simply don't have the oomph to do anything
with that intellect. It's akin to Stephen Hawking, prone sans wheelchair, trying to kick a grizzly bear's ass...it just ain't gonna happen!

The Vorlons or Shadows might be able to whip the Borg, though.
I don't think they could exterminate the entire Collective, especially
on the latter's home turf. But they, at least, could probably fend off an invasion successfully.

Sean
Analyst http://www.babtech-onthe.net/

[Omega-13]

nice to see you on these boards, and I agree,

Also, have to compare how long would it take the ISA to study borg technology in relation to how long it would take the borg to study ISA technology,
when you think about that, in a matter of hours after the first engagement, the borg would be leaps and bounds above them

[Master of Ossus]

Sorry, guys, I still don't think that the ISA can match the Borg's firepower. The Borg is LAUGHABLE compared to SW, but I think that the ISA would be hard-pressed to come up with a victory. Their ships just don't have the power that is needed. The Borg's tactics might be weak, but they aren't weak enough to lose themselves battles against the ISA. And the Borg outnumber the ISA, IMHO. Remember that only 250,000 humans died in the Earth-Minbari War. For the Borg, that would be nothing. I realize that humans aren't the toughest race in B5, but only the Centauri, Minbari, and First Ones are MUCH more powerful. The ISA couldn't pull it off. I know we all *want* B5 to win because of their cool factor, but our wishes aren't going to blow up Borg cubes (unfortunately). I wish I could say that the ISA would win, but I don't see how they could. I think the Borg get to claim victory.

[Dead on Arrival]

Size? Borg ships are far more massive than anything the ISA has ever produced. The most extreme example I can think of is that the 5 mile-long B5 massed 2.5 million metric tons...what a five MAN Borg scoutship massed in "I,Borg"!!!!!

Sean, do you have selective amnesia or something? How many times do we have to point out the mass of Babylon 5 is SIGNIFICANTLY greater than the 2.5 million metric ton figure? JMS has stated that the total mass of the station is equivalent to that of a small moon. If B5 is 200 meters (an underestimate) in radius and 8 kms in length, using the 2.5 million metric ton figure you would get an average density of 2.49 kg/m^3.

Another number. If the outer hull was 20cm in thickness with an average density of 2,000 kg/m^3 (less dense then Aluminum) it would mass ~4 million metric tons. Please stop spreading the 2.5 million metric ton number, it makes zero sense...unless you want to believe the EA has materials with enormous structural strength that mass less than air.

PS: Those 3,000 Drakh-enhanced Centauri ships were never actually used against the ISA.

[Master of Ossus]

The 2.5 million tons was referring to the station when its length was only two kilometers. That is NOT the case for the real show. The real length is 5 miles, and that was used for far more episodes. All other ships are to be scaled up, from their original sizes, to match their scale next to the station. Also, the 2.5 million tons for the 2 kilometer station might have been in metric tons. We should scale that number up, as we have with the station (keeping in mind that its volume will grow more than its length would). This is larger than a Borg cube.

[Dead on Arrival]

Remember that only 250,000 humans died in the Earth-Minbari War.

pg 29, Out of the Darkness, Book III of the Legions of Fire (Centauri) trilogy..."I mean look at the Earth-Minbari War. Thanks to the aggressiveness of the Humans who fired on the Minbari, killing Dukhat, and the Minbari responding with pure rage, there was a needless interstellar war that cost millions of years."

The 250k number is another thing taken as fact, but nothing could be further from the truth...

[Master of Ossus]

In the Beginning clearly references the number as 250,000 humans. AFIK it takes precedence because it was a movie. I think I remember hearing that number during an episode, too, but I can't remember which one and I don't have many on tape.

[Stormbringer]

In the Beginning clearly references the number as 250,000 humans. AFIK it takes precedence because it was a movie. I think I remember hearing that number during an episode, too, but I can't remember which one and I don't have many on tape

It's also been stated by JMS on the net a number of times. I'd say it's THE number.

A quarter million human dead, isn't that far off. Most of the fighting was conducted in space, only ship crews were lost for the most part. Ground fighting was limited and the Minbari (as far as I know) never massacred colonial populations. They simply waited till the end to off the civilians.