How many Fed shuttles at maximum warp can destroy a SD?

Castor Troy · Post by **Castor Troy** » 2005-06-01 05:52pm

How many Federation shuttles at maximum warp does it take to ram into a Star Destroyer at maximum warp and destroy it? Can the Star Destroyer detect and destroy the incoming shuttles before they hit? What would happen, and what would a combat situation like that look like?

The Fed shuttles are Voyager era, and they know the location of the Star Destroyer. The Star Destroyer, however, doesn't know about the shuttles until they appear in it's scanners.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-06-01 05:56pm

*Yawns*.
More than the UFP can possibly produce,
What makes you think those shuttles are in any way, shape or form a threat to an ISD?

Drunk Monkey · Post by **Drunk Monkey** » 2005-06-01 05:59pm

Batman wrote:*Yawns*.
More than the UFP can possibly produce,
What makes you think those shuttles are in any way, shape or form a threat to an ISD?

More then the entire alpha quadrant can produce I believe.

18-Till-I-Die · Post by **18-Till-I-Die** » 2005-06-01 06:15pm

I'll pull a number out of my ass here and say...sixerty million-billion.

In all seriousness though, Warp has a mass-lightening effect, so in actuality it would be better if they hit at sublight because at warp they'd have like zero mass.

(Note: i may be wrong here, guessing from the mass lightening effect)

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-06-01 06:21pm

AMRE apparetly applies to both Warp and impulse so it'd be pointless either way.
Not that there's any way to calculate the KE/momentum of a vehicle at Warp in the first place.

Glimmervoid · Post by **Glimmervoid** » 2005-06-01 06:32pm

Ok if we assume each is careering say 6kg of anti matter (about 4 torpedoes worth) and that all the shuttles hit the same shield face with in 1 second of each other. And that an ISD has the same shield strength as an Acclamator. And also that a shuttle has the shield strength of the enterprise D.

Also due to warps mass lightning effect it will have no or little kinetic energy.

It would take 129630 shuttles to take down the shields.

And maybe a further 10 to destroy the ISD its self.

Glimmervoid · Post by **Glimmervoid** » 2005-06-01 06:33pm

And this will give us a grossly underestimated value.

Burak Gazan · Post by **Burak Gazan** » 2005-06-01 07:07pm

I'm kinda getting an image of driving through a swarm of bugs, and mussing up the ISD's bridge windows

"Dammit, this keeps up we'll have to pull over and get some more washer fluid! "

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2005-06-01 08:00pm

[Pedantic]An unreal number, since Shuttles have no warp engines.[/Pedantic]

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-06-01 08:03pm

SirNitram wrote:[Pedantic]An unreal number, since Shuttles have no warp engines.[/Pedantic]

Actually, there are Warp capable shuttles in TNG if not later.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2005-06-01 08:03pm

That's not entirely true.

We have seen Warp capable shuttles before, just they were not very fast

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2005-06-01 09:31pm

Batman wrote:AMRE apparetly applies to both Warp and impulse so it'd be pointless either way.
Not that there's any way to calculate the KE/momentum of a vehicle at Warp in the first place.

sure you can. the value is just imaginary.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-06-01 11:20pm

Ender wrote:
Batman wrote:AMRE apparetly applies to both Warp and impulse so it'd be pointless either way.
Not that there's any way to calculate the KE/momentum of a vehicle at Warp in the first place.
sure you can. the value is just imaginary.

That would be true if warp drive produced tachyonic speeds. It does not. It creates a "warp field" which moves quickly and basically carries the ship along for the ride, but any inertial frame of reference inside the warp bubble will show the vessel moving at distinctly sublight velocity. So if it got close enough to envelop you in its warp bubble (which would inevitably occur before impact), it would not be moving at superluminal speeds.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2005-06-01 11:22pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Ender wrote:
Batman wrote:AMRE apparetly applies to both Warp and impulse so it'd be pointless either way.
Not that there's any way to calculate the KE/momentum of a vehicle at Warp in the first place.
sure you can. the value is just imaginary.
That would be true if warp drive produced tachyonic speeds. It does not. It creates a "warp field" which moves quickly and basically carries the ship along for the ride, but any inertial frame of reference inside the warp bubble will show the vessel moving at distinctly sublight velocity. So if it got close enough to envelop you in its warp bubble (which would inevitably occur before impact), it would not be moving at superluminal speeds.

I thought that was the real warp drive, but the trek one was just a goofy name for your standard FTL drive.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-06-01 11:27pm

Ender wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Ender wrote:sure you can. the value is just imaginary.
That would be true if warp drive produced tachyonic speeds. It does not. It creates a "warp field" which moves quickly and basically carries the ship along for the ride, but any inertial frame of reference inside the warp bubble will show the vessel moving at distinctly sublight velocity. So if it got close enough to envelop you in its warp bubble (which would inevitably occur before impact), it would not be moving at superluminal speeds.
I thought that was the real warp drive, but the trek one was just a goofy name for your standard FTL drive.

Well, there's no such thing as a "standard FTL drive", and the reason the "real" warp drive doesn't work is energy requirements. In the Trek-verse, they can circumvent those energy requirements through technobabble, so the basic idea is still the same.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2005-06-01 11:32pm

Darth Wong wrote:Well, there's no such thing as a "standard FTL drive",

Your basic scifi FTL drive that should violate relativity and casuality but for some handwave reason does not I meant. Same as how just about every universe uses torchships - conventional rockets that totally ignore real rocketry. Or inertial compensators. They all do the same thing, its just the technobabble thats different.

and the reason the "real" warp drive doesn't work is energy requirements. In the Trek-verse, they can circumvent those energy requirements through technobabble, so the basic idea is still the same.

Isn't taht explanation something about directing plasma through a coil made of a special metal so the energy field does it or some nonsense?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-06-01 11:35pm

Ender wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Well, there's no such thing as a "standard FTL drive",
Your basic scifi FTL drive that should violate relativity and casuality but for some handwave reason does not I meant. Same as how just about every universe uses torchships - conventional rockets that totally ignore real rocketry. Or inertial compensators. They all do the same thing, its just the technobabble thats different.

True, but when it comes to FTL drives, there is considerable variation. Consider the variations between various jumpgate systems, B5-style hyperspace, Trek warp drive, SW hyperdrive, etc.

and the reason the "real" warp drive doesn't work is energy requirements. In the Trek-verse, they can circumvent those energy requirements through technobabble, so the basic idea is still the same.
Isn't taht explanation something about directing plasma through a coil made of a special metal so the energy field does it or some nonsense?

Yeah. According to the old TM, there's a special kind of metal that warps spacetime if you hit it with plasma

In the show they don't say that explicitly, but the fact that the nacelles warp space is made pretty clear on numerous occasions.

wilfulton · Post by **wilfulton** » 2005-06-01 11:51pm

Glimmervoid wrote:Ok if we assume each is careering say 6kg of anti matter (about 4 torpedoes worth) and that all the shuttles hit the same shield face with in 1 second of each other. And that an ISD has the same shield strength as an Acclamator. And also that a shuttle has the shield strength of the enterprise D.

Also due to warps mass lightning effect it will have no or little kinetic energy.

It would take 129630 shuttles to take down the shields.

And maybe a further 10 to destroy the ISD its self.

I'm kinda getting an image of driving through a swarm of bugs, and mussing up the ISD's bridge windows

Okay, let's keep this simple and say it'll take 130,000 shuttles. How many 5 gallon buckets of windshield washer fluid will the ISD in question go through?

And given the high degree of skill demonstrated by Trek pilots, what are the chances that all of these 130,000 shuttles are going to simultaneously strike the same shield face of a mile long starship without hitting each other, resulting in premature ejaculation...I mean detonation, and thus putting on a really impressive fireworks display for the bridge crew.

My heart does, however, go out for the poor lower enlisted men on the Star Destroyer, as they are going to be the ones doing EVA to wipe off the little bits of goo that used to be federation kamakaze shuttles off of their windows.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2005-06-02 01:13am

Oh, hell, they could just skim the atmosphere of a planet and burn the shit off.

Burak Gazan · Post by **Burak Gazan** » 2005-06-02 01:23am

Uraniun235 wrote:Oh, hell, they could just skim the atmosphere of a planet and burn the shit off.

That's true, but you gotta leave some crappy job for the poor sods on the defaulters' list

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2005-06-02 01:49am

Anyone wonder why Trek ships don't fire warp torps at enemies? Or have huge "Warp Mass Driver" weapon platforms? Probably because....that's not how warp works?

Now, think about this. What happens when the Empire decides to place a proton torpedo into a hyperspace pod (the ones they use to launch probe droids), disable the hyp-cutoff safeties, and aim it at at Trek ship?

Would this work?

WHO CARES???? ITS A STUPID IDEA. WHY HAVE WEAPONS IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE???

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-06-02 02:48am

Some things to consider about Warp.

When Voyager was heavily damaged in Year of Hell, when it passed Warp 5 you see pieces of the ship flying off in Warp as if it were a plane breaking apart by flying too fast in an atmosphere (brain hurts)

Then there is the part in Best of Both Worlds PT2 where Riker specificaly orders the Enterprise-D to prepared to ram the Borg ship at maximum warp speed.

Warp is pretty fucked up, thats about all I can really say about it.

DaveJB · Post by **DaveJB** » 2005-06-02 03:25am

If this really is such a fantasticly brilliant weapon for the Federation, why didn't they try it against either of the Borg cubes, or the Dominion?

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2005-06-02 03:59am

More than the UFP can possibly produce,

*points to Voyager's magically reproducing shuttles*

Crown · Post by **Crown** » 2005-06-02 06:53am

Alyeska wrote:Some things to consider about Warp.

When Voyager was heavily damaged in Year of Hell, when it passed Warp 5 you see pieces of the ship flying off in Warp as if it were a plane breaking apart by flying too fast in an atmosphere (brain hurts).

Actually that's not too bad. Space isn't a perfect vacuum it contains about (on average) 1 bacteria sized dust (particle, molecule, thingy, whatever) per cubic meter. So at relativelistic velocities you'll actually experience quite significant drag.

The issue is whether or not the 'warp field' mitigates the interaction between the ship inside the field and the outer space-time continuum or not. If it doesn't, then what you described above is o-kay. If, however it does, then it could just have been a vibration/stress issue.