fgalkin wrote:They were created when the universe came into existance. It is described how it was created, and it plays an important part in the story.
Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
THen, as time is part of the universe, time could be controlled by the pattern.
The universe was created by the Creator. The Old Gods came into being with it. Then the Young Gods came and destroyed them. The pattern has no place in this.
Besides, how would you explain the existance of non-humans using the pattern?
fgalkin wrote:The universe was created by the Creator. The Old Gods came into being with it. Then the Young Gods came and destroyed them. The pattern has no place in this.
Besides, how would you explain the existance of non-humans using the pattern?
fgalkin wrote:The universe was created by the Creator. The Old Gods came into being with it. Then the Young Gods came and destroyed them. The pattern has no place in this.
Besides, how would you explain the existance of non-humans using the pattern?
THe Yosemite Bear wrote:Perferably someone who is familiar with both series. Otherwise your talking classic wars/trek troll fallicies here.
I doubt that anyone here has read the Perumoverse boks. They are in Russian only. He tried to get them published in the US, but they claimed that the books "are too complex for the average reader", and thus will not sell very well.
If you are interested, however, you can go here http://www.perumov.com. It's in Russian, but there are online translators.
Lots and lots. Amberites themselves aren't human. They look human and can pass off as human, they can even interbreed with humans. But they themselves aren't. Humans exist in many shadows, but throughout the books there are countless references to non-humans. Hell, all of the Courts of Chaos with the exception of a few human courtiers are non-human. Entire battles have been fought with non-humans.
In Amber city itself, the majority of the population is human, but with Amberites ruling it.
Hendrake wrote:The Lords of Chaos can extrude tendrils of force from their bodies and fetch objects and possibly attack people who are not even in thier shadow, change shape at will and summon storms of Chaos that can devour shadows.
I seem to be detecting a slight bias leaning in the direction of your allegiances, my dear scion of Hendrake. ;)
*smirk* Well, maybe just a bit...
Eleas wrote:Seriously, there is scant reason for pattern users to be capable of the same feats Merlin has displayed; namely, extending constructs into the shadows. Fiona is reputedly a pattern mage - why not go ask her...?
If I recall correctly, Fiona did extend a 'tunnel'-like construct between two shadows, right?
And Ghostwheel was based on the Pattern. So I say, patttern mages are definetely capable.
"It appears that our minds will never meet on this subject."
"If someone asks you why you're oppressing a world and you reply with a lot of poetic crap, no." - Lord of Light, Roger Zelazny
THe Yosemite Bear wrote:Mind you there is the unicorn as well.
And a ssserpent, don't dissscount the ssserpent.
Yesss, never understimate the Ssserpent...
"It appears that our minds will never meet on this subject."
"If someone asks you why you're oppressing a world and you reply with a lot of poetic crap, no." - Lord of Light, Roger Zelazny
fgalkin wrote:
Sweet. it's exactly like that in the Perumoverse, too. Except time can move backwards, too.
I get the feeling that you probably would get the reverse time flow areas REALLY close to the courts...
How would it work? And how does time work in Amberverse?
The time flow varies in function of both Shadow and time itself. I mean, the temporal ratio between a Shadow and Amber varies, so you have different ratios in different points in time. For example, the average time ratio between Shadow Earth (where you puny humans live bwahahahah!) and Amber is 2.5, but sometimes it approches parity. The further away from Amber and nearer to the Courts of Chaos, the time shift in relation to time becomes more extreme. An Amberite attuned to the Pattern or a Lord of Chaos attuned to the Logrus can chjange the ratio, but only the most experience know how to do that.
Also, Oberon seems to be able to play with time at will, accelerating the personal time of an object and reversing locally the flow of Time.
"It appears that our minds will never meet on this subject."
"If someone asks you why you're oppressing a world and you reply with a lot of poetic crap, no." - Lord of Light, Roger Zelazny
Eleas wrote:
I seem to be detecting a slight bias leaning in the direction of your allegiances, my dear scion of Hendrake.
*smirk* Well, maybe just a bit...
Heh.
Hendrake wrote:
Eleas wrote:Seriously, there is scant reason for pattern users to be capable of the same feats Merlin has displayed; namely, extending constructs into the shadows. Fiona is reputedly a pattern mage - why not go ask her...?
If I recall correctly, Fiona did extend a 'tunnel'-like construct between two shadows, right?
And Ghostwheel was based on the Pattern. So I say, patttern mages are definetely capable.
Damn, I hate the lack of an edit function. I added the world "incapable", but that was still a bit confused. Suffice to say we agree on this.
Björn Paulsen
"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe
weemadando wrote:Fiona's construct sounded a lot like the "trump-gate" skill from the RPG.
And Ghostwheel is HIGHLY powerful. Possibly even rivalling some of the shadow patterns...
Hmm... Always thought it was a kind of modified Pattern Shadow Pocket. Anyway, I was just pointing out that Pattern mages can create constructs as well as Logrus masters.
As for Ghostwheel, it was my point. Hell, if it was built before, it could have possibly 'relocated' Brand directly in the Abyss...
"It appears that our minds will never meet on this subject."
"If someone asks you why you're oppressing a world and you reply with a lot of poetic crap, no." - Lord of Light, Roger Zelazny
Eleas wrote:Damn, I hate the lack of an edit function. I added the world "incapable", but that was still a bit confused. Suffice to say we agree on this.
*reads back*. Oh. I see. Yes, we agree on this. Pity, I was looking foeward to a debate. :lol:
"It appears that our minds will never meet on this subject."
"If someone asks you why you're oppressing a world and you reply with a lot of poetic crap, no." - Lord of Light, Roger Zelazny
Eleas wrote:Damn, I hate the lack of an edit function. I added the world "incapable", but that was still a bit confused. Suffice to say we agree on this.
*reads back*. Oh. I see. Yes, we agree on this. Pity, I was looking foeward to a debate.
Yeah, too bad.
Björn Paulsen
"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe
I have a question for Amber Fans. At the Beginning of the Amber novels there were 9 princes and, I think 6 princesses of Amber for a total of 15 members (17 if you count Oberon and Dworkin.)
As time past they had a few kids, Brian, Merlin, probably a few others I've forgotten.
So let's say, that at a maximum there's 25 Amberites Running around.
Merlin was (I think) 109th in line for the Throne of Chaos, and he was actually one of the higher ranking people (obviously loads under him). This suggests that Chaosites outnumber Amberites by an absolutely huge margin, and from the discussion here they seem to have more powers as well since Flora's the only real pattern mage while Chaos Sorcerers are dime a dozen.
So my question is, how the heck can the Amberites be a match for the Chaosites? The Chaosites want to kill them, why not just Flood Amber with hundreds of Chaos Warriors and mow them down like chaff? Sure, they'd take losses, but they'd be able to crush the Pattern and all the Amberites in short order. Are Amberites each so strong they're a match for 4+ Chaosites?
THe Yosemite Bear wrote:
Example Corwin killed the Chaos's answer to Benedict (Resulting in Dara getting totally pissed off at him forever)
I'm going off on a tangent here, but I thought it was pretty strongly hinted at that Dara would be pissed at him anyhow. She was looking for an excuse to hate him, now that she had done what she set out to do. IMHO.
Björn Paulsen
"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe
The Courts of Chaos have a great number of sorcerors, and *some* of the Logrus Masters, like Suhuy and perhaps Mandor, are a match to Amberites.
But they have some disadvantages:
1) I don't think any of the Lords can match an Amberite in terms of martial prowess and strategy, and magic and the Logrus take time to use, and they aren't stealthy. In a direct confrontation Lords of Chaos are liable to become pin-cushions.
2) Their fight among temselves a lot more than even Amberites (a typical chaos education involves classes about poisons).
3) They tried to. It was the whole point of the Black Road and Patternfall, I think. Only, they are not very able to control and walk Shadows as Amberites do. To go to Amber, they need a damaged Pattern and a road spanning the whole of Shadow. Their mobility in Shadow is pretty limited, and I don't think they can gather resources as easily as Amberites. Given a choice, Merlin, who is both a Logrus and Pattern initiate, uses Logrus to do almost anything, but he Shadowshifts with Pattern.
4) The madly swinging time flow of the Courts can hinder decision making better than a truckload of beurocrats...
"It appears that our minds will never meet on this subject."
"If someone asks you why you're oppressing a world and you reply with a lot of poetic crap, no." - Lord of Light, Roger Zelazny
After all my character prefered to establish a shadow and make a large number of Trump doors. Of course once his wife took over, there were Trump doors to just about everywhere.
The scariest folk song lyrics are "My Boy Grew up to be just like me" from cats in the cradle by Harry Chapin
