The Dominion vs The Empire

[18-Till-I-Die]

God why does everyone use the damn Ewoks as a crutch. For fuck's sake! They had cammo, they had surprise, and as others pointed out they werent fucking winning by that much.

It's not like two Ewoks walked up to a ucking AT-AT kicked it in the servo-shin and it fell over and exploded.

I'm sorry it's just i've heard that brought up way to fucking much. It's old, it's tired. And more to the point, most of the time it's brought up it's taken out of context.


As for the debate...here goes my argument, anyone who has anything to add or correct fill free of course...

Empire has a couple million (at least) capital ships including at least 25,000 Imperial-class star destroyers and God only knows how many billions of probots.

Squadrons of ISDs go out, slowly system by system, pushing into the dominion with a probe or two or, fuck why not, twenty sent head before each jump.

Any planet that can be easily taken or has valuable resources is charted and lsated for a massive invasion for, those who are not worth teh effort get their crusts melted.

Empire wins.

[Asdeed]

Well now this is interesting.

Uhmmmm..... you were the one who proposed 'Dominion vs Empire' right? But now you don't want the Empire to be aware of the Dominion? That bird just won't fly.

Nice selective quoting, however I never said they didn't know the Dominion existed, but they would still need to map their space. Upon arriving to an uncharted galaxy they will have to map.

Here's Trolly McMartok complaining about being 'selectively quoted'

the Ewoks were losing right up until the AT-ST joined the fray

Oh terribly sorry.. A tribe of ewoks and a Wookie, damned sorry I forgot the Wookie, defeated "A legion of my finest troops".

And here's Trolly McMartok selectively quoting from a lengthy post by Stravo. A post which totally destroys his whole argument, unless you just ignore everything but this line then spew some trektard lies about.

So lesse here...
liar (ROTH massacre, Imperials can't map quickly, shield stupidity) - check
hypocrite blatantly using a tactic you cry about being unfair) - check

Matok = Trollish fucktard - check

Now properly refute some damned arguments or go the fuck away!

[18-Till-I-Die]

Addition...on the ground the Jem'Hadar have shown zero armour, aircraft or anything else as far as i know. Infantry they had, though.

They'd be outnumbered by the Empire by a vast margin, seeing as the Empire can conscript soldiers from millions of planets, plus the Empire has huge armored walkers which would literally stomp the Dominion forces flat.

Thats what i refer to as a 'massive invasion force', e.g. a few million Stormtroopers and some scores of AT-ATs and AT-STs.

[Lord Poe]

Not enough time or inclination to bitchslap the latest Trekkie cunt who trots out the same, tired bullshit. Just a few points:

1. One ISD ion cannons a Harry Mudd, brings his ship aboard, gets maps. Woopiee. And yes, to field of that idiotic argument Trekkies haven't understood for years now, ST maps include ENOUGH info for hyp travel. They send Starfleet vessels out to map GASEOUS ANOMALIES, FFS.

2. Protocol droids are familiar with six million forms of communication. Deciphering a Starfleet map won't be too much trouble.

3. Luke Skywalker arrived safe and sound on Dagobah, even though it was uncharted.

4. Phased weapons in SW:

Jedi Search

pg.186: A short distance beyond the muzzle, the two beams coalesced and phased, forming a staccato series of bursts, each one containing a brief impulse of power ten times that of a single blaster beam.

[Lord Poe]

Not enough time or inclination to bitchslap the latest Trekkie cunt who trots out the same, tired bullshit. Just a few points:

1. One ISD ion cannons a Harry Mudd, brings his ship aboard, gets maps. Woopiee. And yes, to ward off that idiotic argument Trekkies haven't understood for years now, ST maps include ENOUGH info for hyp travel. They send Starfleet vessels out to map GASEOUS ANOMALIES, FFS.

2. Protocol droids are familiar with six million forms of communication. Deciphering a Starfleet map won't be too much trouble.

3. Luke Skywalker arrived safe and sound on Dagobah, even though it was uncharted.

4. Phased weapons in SW:

Jedi Search

pg.186: A short distance beyond the muzzle, the two beams coalesced and phased, forming a staccato series of bursts, each one containing a brief impulse of power ten times that of a single blaster beam.

[DPDarkPrimus]

at least a QUARTER of the galaxy would need mapping to allow hyperspace travel within the Dominion at a military level.

Why?

I would like an answer, please.

[LordShaithis]

Warp drive: 40 or 50 lightyears per week
Hyperdrive in unexplored territory: 40 or 50 lightyears per hour

Result: Even with no maps, the Dominion can't keep up.

Imperial shields: Two systems (particle, ray) and no reference to frequency
Federation shields: One system, frequency dependent

Result: Two totally dissimilar systems, no reason to think Imperial shields share a magical weakness to "polaron" beams.

That sums it up, right? Martok, any answer to these points?

[Adrian Laguna]

Oh terribly sorry.. A tribe of ewoks and a Wookie, damned sorry I forgot the Wookie, defeated "A legion of my finest troops".

Exept they are not really the finest troops the Empire has to offer:

That whole "elite legion" thing is bullshit and always has been. Just because the Emperor tries to rattle Luke with that line doesn't mean it's actually true. If the Empire put real effort into garrisoning that forest moon, then why didn't they even bother deploying camo troops, which we know that they have? And does he realize that they were actually winning despite being ambushed and playing by the rules? Yes, Imperial troops play by the rules. If they were half as lawless and ruthless as people think, they would have executed Han and Leia and the others on the spot when they found them in the bunker compound instead of marching them out to be taken as prisoners. Even when the attack began, they could have shot all of the Rebel prisoners dead before engaging the Ewoks.

Anyone who trusts anything Palpatine says after seeing ROTS is either on drugs or the most gullible moron in the universe.
BTW, you forgort a few other factors in the Ewok's favor like small target profile and the stormtroopers being handicapped by direct orders from Vader to take prisoners.

You see?

The ewoks were doing just fine against Storm Troopers, their flint tipped arrows fired with unerring accuracy at all the weakest points of the trooper armour, their little stone clubs bashing in the 'armoured' heads of the "elite" troops. Give me a fuckin break, I may be guilty of logic leaps when I dont have a fact but where the fact exists at least acknowledge it.

What unerring accuracy? I recall seing the Ewoks miss several times. We never get a good look at the Ewoks attacking Stormtroopers short range, all we see is them bashing them and not doing much of anything. One must assume that they either attacked gaps in armour or forcibly removed their helmets in order to kill them.

Do Jem'Hadar act stupidly? Yes, they're more than capable of it. When Jem'Hadar think they will fail the founders they go fanatical, also they are drug dependant and White Deprivation causes odd behaviour.
There is enough anecdotal evidence within DS9 of the Jem'Hadar being fearsome warriors to discount one or two "stupid" episodes.

If you gave me SAW and you put a group of "fearsome warriors" in front of me whose idea of tactics was to charge until they were at point blank range, who would win? Cowardly me, or the "fearsome warriors"? Just because they're scary doesn't mean that the Jem Hadar are masters of ground warfare, and once they start dying in great numbers the don't look so tough anymore. If there is evidence that they are competent please be so kind as to present it.

Stormtroopers generally are feared throughout the Galaxy, I only make the point about the ewoks (sorry and a wookie) to show that plot constructs are more important to writers than maintaining the "truth" of their universe for our benefit. IF you use examples to show that Jem'Hadar are stupid moronic fighters then I will bring up the Ewoks (and the wookie)

Exept that the Battle of Endor doesn't show that Stormtroopers are incompetent. They were winning despite being heavily outnumbered, cought by surprise, and being attacked by a small enemy that knew the terrain and could easily hide in the dense foliage. Chewbacca hijacked one of the AT-STs and used its superior firepower to turn the tide of the battle.

[Stark]

The man hasn't answered ANY points. I do notice how he's totally switched tactics, however, from his retarded 'map 100% of the 2 sixtillion stars of the milky way or you can't jumpzor' to 'lol ewoks', but I'm not sure it's an improvement.

It's funny how quickly he went from mildly reasonable, and even willing to accept he got something wrong, to NO YOU ARE SW FAGS I HATE YOU. Does he really care that much?

[applejack]

Like I said TREKKIES WERE THE FUCK ARE YOU? Surely you lot haven't scared them ALL away? I mean you're not THAT bad

You know, this guy sounds suspiciously like Victory Is Life from SB.com...

[Ender]

You know, it kills me that these people never bring up valid limiting points like fuel consumption and logistics and flight envelopes in their attempts to win; its always just random screaming about the same crap.

[Ender]

Like I said TREKKIES WERE THE FUCK ARE YOU? Surely you lot haven't scared them ALL away? I mean you're not THAT bad

You know, this guy sounds suspiciously like Victory Is Life from SB.com...

That user profile paints the picture of an incredibly pathetic individual.

[Martok]

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:38 am Post subject:
The man hasn't answered ANY points. I do notice how he's totally switched tactics, however, from his retarded 'map 100% of the 2 sixtillion stars of the milky way or you can't jumpzor' to 'lol ewoks', but I'm not sure it's an improvement.

It was getting late and I was getting frustrated so I threw out a total load of crap (i,e "LoL ewoks") because of frustration. I'm trying desperately to hold a rational discussion and was getting swamped under so much drivel that too many decent arguments were getting ignored while I tried to play catch ups.

You know, it kills me that these people never bring up valid limiting points like fuel consumption and logistics and flight envelopes in their attempts to win; its always just random screaming about the same crap.

Err...

Martok said: In that time you have to keep morale up, feed your troops, refuel, constantly drill etc.. unviable. The Empire force will go in slow and methodical, not sit back for years drawing freaking maps

I did bring it up.. nobody cared. They were too busy calling me a troll.
I have also apologized for an inability to reply to all points made by everyone, take a moment to read how many posts intersperse mine. Please dont get antsy if I miss one or two quite legitimate points, i'll try and avoid the ranting and focus on the reason.

You know, this guy sounds suspiciously like Victory Is Life from SB.com...

You sound suspiciously like a paranoid delusional, I have never involved myself in any Trek/Wars debating on the net before. I love both franchises but happen to have some quite valid reasons I haven't had a chance to discuss why I think the Dominion could handle if not take the empire.

On phased polarons... CANON: Cycling frequencies did not impact the ability to penetrate shields, it WAS NOT a frequency based ability. It took a direct analysis of the weapon to negate it.

Trek shields and Wars shields both prevent the entrance of energy & matter from penetrating them, possibly by different means. Am I saying the phased polaron beam will CERTAINLY penetrate empire shields? No. I am making a reasoned hypothesis based on evidence. The Vorta were VERY surprised the federation adapted the technology, noone had before. Gamma quadrant races dont have Federation shields, some races dont use phased particle weapons.. their shields were still breached.

t's funny how quickly he went from mildly reasonable, and even willing to accept he got something wrong, to NO YOU ARE SW FAGS I HATE YOU. Does he really care that much? Rolling Eyes

I never personally insulted anyone or the group, I dont think you're all a pack of arseholes, however some people are displaying tendancies towards irrationality.

Exept they are not really the finest troops the Empire has to offer

This statement contradicts canon "A legion of my finest troops".

The contention that it is not true because Palpatine is a liar is fucking stupid. You can't deny canon just becuase it doesn't fit your profile. Even taken as a GENERAL statement and not literal fact, the Emperor has placed a significant number of elite troops on the forest moon to capture the rebel party. Anyway, enough on this crap it's divergent nonsense like I said above, with me as guilty of the divergence as anyone.

They'd be outnumbered by the Empire by a vast margin, seeing as the Empire can conscript soldiers from millions of planets, plus the Empire has huge armored walkers which would literally stomp the Dominion forces flat.

Thats what i refer to as a 'massive invasion force', e.g. a few million Stormtroopers and some scores of AT-ATs and AT-STs.

The Jem'Hadar occupation force of Cardassia was 10 million strong. Jem'Hadar are mass produced soldiers ready to fight 3 days after birth. They require no food, no sleep. They are NOT tactical geniuses, when left to their own devices they will make a suicide charge a'la japanese banzai.
They are led by the Vorta who run their capaigns so the Jem'Hadar are dependant on good leadership to perform.

This was an ALPHA quadrant occupation force, the founders can create Jem'Hadar incredibly fast when needed.

As an aside the Jem'Hadar occupation force enacted a genocide of Cardassia and killed 800 million people at the direct order of the founder leader. The Dominion is as brutal as the Empire. These troops are fanatical, indoctrinated, strong and bred for combat.

And here's Trolly McMartok selectively quoting from a lengthy post by Stravo.

blah blah fucking blah, I'm not perfect, I make mistakes, I do stupid things, I use unfair persuasive techniques without thinking too. You're being more a Troll than me with that useless post. It was the biggest "Me too" load of crap. I'm sure Stravo can make his own point without you being attached to his arse, hey.. just like he did.

So let me get this straight. The founders who were more than willing to walk away from the Alpha Quadrant .... The Dominion loses because Odo makes them feel guilty about what they've done.

Not selectively quoting for my own benefit here just cutting a long post. The emporor showed strategic genius but tactical stupidity, a common failing in civilian Commander in Chief's and some generals. He was politically unparalled, he seizing of power absolutely brilliant.. unfortunatly he couldn't see the trees for the forest, he's attention to military detail at Endor and Vader's on Hoth were negligible.
Odo convinced the founder leader not to make a suicidal/genocidal last stand to make the Allied victory Phyrric at best. The Dominion had lost due to the closing of the wormhole and the loss of their 2800 ship reinforcements.

Ok, i'm gonna submit coz this it's getting too long. Again sorry for the points i've missed. Also we're not getting anywhere at the moment so I may just make a tactical withdrawal from this grand plan (Dom vs. Empire) and break my war down into smaller battles. I'm a tactical moron as well.. but we'll see how it goes for now.

[Ghost Rider]

I'll say it again because you're new and multiples are assualting you.

1. Stop using one shot technobabble technology. Hint one: Phased Polaron is BULLSHIT TECHNOBABBLE.

2. Display numbers and compare as such.

People have demonstrated why the Empire has an advantage....prove otherwise, or this gets swiftly dumped because you're being nothing more then a fucking retarded fool who's found out his bat isn't the biggest stick on the block.

[Jay]

[quote=Martok wrote]
at least a QUARTER of the galaxy would need mapping to allow hyperspace travel within the Dominion at a military level.[/quote]

In answer to DPdarkprimus. I was wondering the same. Here's what I think he's thinking, since he's yet to answer you himself.

In his opening gambit, Martok states that the Dominion controlled the entire Gamma Quarent or 'One quarter of the Milky Way' as he puts it. So from his skewed reconning, you'd have to map all of the GQ in order to use hyperspeed against the dominion.

However, in the season finale of season three (name?) The Defiant takes Odo back to the founders new homeworld. They go through the wormhole, into the Gamma Quadrent and then travel a while before entering Dominion space. So he obviously knows as little about Star Trek as he does Star Wars.

Secondus. You don't have to map all the shit around the outside of someones territory to take the planet at the (figurative) centre.

I hope this helps answer your question[/quote]

[Darth Wong]

On phased polarons... CANON: Cycling frequencies did not impact the ability to penetrate shields, it WAS NOT a frequency based ability. It took a direct analysis of the weapon to negate it.

It's impossible to have a phase if there is no frequency, moron. And guess what: a big piece of metal blocks phased polerons quite nicely, so obviously you do not need to have some special anti-phased poleron protection to stop it. It just takes advantage of some weakness of Fed shields.

Trek shields and Wars shields both prevent the entrance of energy & matter from penetrating them, possibly by different means. Am I saying the phased polaron beam will CERTAINLY penetrate empire shields? No. I am making a reasoned hypothesis based on evidence.

No, you are making a bullshit hypothesis based on thin air.

This statement contradicts canon "A legion of my finest troops".

No, it contradicts your preferred interpretation of canon, retard. I already pointed out that you can count the troopers in the clearing yourself, and it is obviously not a full legion. I also pointed out that the Empire is known to have camo-troopers, and they didn't bother deploying any on Endor, so they obviously didn't put as much effort into it as Palpatine claimed they did. And your idiot interpretation is based upon the assumption that Palpatine would never ever lie, which is horseshit.

The contention that it is not true because Palpatine is a liar is fucking stupid. You can't deny that Palpatine would always tell the truth just becuase it doesn't fit your profile.

There. I fixed that line for you, you lying little shitstain. And your "mapping" argument is pure bullshit which you have utterly failed to defend against a hailstorm of rebuttals that you cannot answer.

[The Nomad]

The Ferengi have charted the Gamma quadrant?

Ferrengi lack telescopes? The Federation lacks telescopes? Hrm, I wonder how long you'll continue this facade...

Nevermind the runabout Sisko first crossed the wormhole with was capable of determining their position thanks to its star charts, identifying nearby stars, even though it was the first Alpha Quadrant ship ever recorded to explore the Gamma Quadrant... Speaks of detailed galactic charts available to me.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

This statement contradicts canon "A legion of my finest troops".

Amongst other reasons, this was said by Palpatine to goad Luke into fighting Vader.

Clearly, his threat against Han and Leia wouldn't have been as effective if he had said, "It is guarded by a handful of some dudes on shore leave; the natives could probably give a good go at it if they were feeling bold..."

I know you've already admitted that you probably shouldn't have used this line. A better look at how the Empire's rmy fights can obviously be viewed in AOTC--ROTS (the technology and soldiers are practically the same), and ESB.

[Ender]

Quote:
You know, it kills me that these people never bring up valid limiting points like fuel consumption and logistics and flight envelopes in their attempts to win; its always just random screaming about the same crap.


Err... Quote:
Martok said: In that time you have to keep morale up, feed your troops, refuel, constantly drill etc.. unviable. The Empire force will go in slow and methodical, not sit back for years drawing freaking maps


I did bring it up.. nobody cared. They were too busy calling me a troll.

A vague reference to basic loggistics is not a counter argument. A counter argument would be to determine the mass ratio and apply basic calc to show that they are limited in theier peak accel time, then using that and their peak power to determine reaction mass and determine EFPH and how that limits them to operating caps.

[Trekdestroyer]

Mr.Toke,
I say pass the friggin bong, because whatever you are smoking it has to be extremly brain numbing. Aside from the jokes, there isn't a military that can take the Empire down. If you did your "homework" you would have known that. Numbers are against you and so is common sense. You are beaten, it is useless to resist.

[harbringer]

Trekdestroyer that isn't true what of the culture???

What should have been said was there is no power singly or combined to defeat the empire

Not that I am disagreeing with you just pointing something out.

The dominion is so screwed it isn't funny. They don't even have support weapons or verhicles, and don't include their ships they can't survive an ISD. very short and messy.

[DPDarkPrimus]

Mr.Toke,
I say pass the friggin bong, because whatever you are smoking it has to be extremly brain numbing. Aside from the jokes, there isn't a military that can take the Empire down. If you did your "homework" you would have known that. Numbers are against you and so is common sense. You are beaten, it is useless to resist.

We all know the thread's over when trekdestroyer jumps on the bandwagon.


Hey Martok, how much longer are you planning on ignoring my question?

[Darth Lucifer]

Mr.Toke,
I say pass the friggin bong, because whatever you are smoking it has to be extremly brain numbing. Aside from the jokes, there isn't a military that can take the Empire down. If you did your "homework" you would have known that. Numbers are against you and so is common sense. You are beaten, it is useless to resist.

Yeah, what he said, for reasons already stated by many here. Empire pwns the Dominion.

I could be wrong, but even if the Empire had no knowledge of the Milky way Galaxy coming into this fight, it sure as hell wouldn't take them long to scout the terrain, so to speak, as they have probe droids, sensors, etc. to gather stellar information. Even if their Hyperdrive advantage was lost in this scenario, they still have the Dominion on sheer numbers and firepower.

[Patrick Degan]

You know, it kills me that these people never bring up valid limiting points like fuel consumption and logistics and flight envelopes in their attempts to win; its always just random screaming about the same crap.

Some time ago, we had a thread involving a scenario of one lone ISD trapped in the ST galaxy on a mission to simply destroy the Federation or as many worlds as it could with the resources it had available. I outlined how this one ship, in order to conserve both fuel and time, would simply jump to each Federation world —which have no shield protection whatsoever— and hit them with a one-minute focussed bombardment from the heavy turbolasers which would deliver the equivalent energy of an large asteroid strike and very effectively depopulate the target world with only a meagre fraction of the ISD's energy reserves expended for the effort. The plan took advantage of the ISD's massive speed advantage, the dispersal of enemy forces, and the fact that from any Imperial standard, every ST world is naked to attack and would not even require the effort of a full Base Delta-Zero operation to slaughter an entire planetary population. The Dominion wouldn't fare any better in such a scenario.

In that time you have to keep morale up, feed your troops, refuel, constantly drill etc.. unviable. The Empire force will go in slow and methodical, not sit back for years drawing freaking maps

That's why you drill the troops, to help keep up morale between those times when you're simply chalking up destroyed enemy worlds on the scoreboard.

Furthermore, it would not be necessary to "spend years drawing maps". The first step toward finding their way around the galaxy would be to identify basic landmarks: the galactic core, pulsars, black holes —all of which provide navigational markers for triangulation. The probe droids sent out into Dominion space would tap into subspace comm-traffic which would identify inhabited worlds and concentrations of political, financial, and military power. The capture of alien ships would provide navigational data to augment information from the aforementioned sources. This process would take months at best.

[applejack]

You sound suspiciously like a paranoid delusional, I have never involved myself in any Trek/Wars debating on the net before. I love both franchises but happen to have some quite valid reasons I haven't had a chance to discuss why I think the Dominion could handle if not take the empire.

Meh. In my three to four years of lurking and participation on SB.com and now here, I've never heard anyone else try to rally Trekkies like that. Add this to your waxing poetic about the Dominion, and it seemed reasonable at the time to suspect you were Victory is Life. If you're not, then I apologize. If you are ViL, then shame on you.

Gamma quadrant races dont have Federation shields, some races dont use phased particle weapons.. their shields were still breached.

Could it, per chance, be due to simple firepower? Something Imperial warships have by the bushel.

The Jem'Hadar occupation force of Cardassia was 10 million strong. Jem'Hadar are mass produced soldiers ready to fight 3 days after birth. They require no food, no sleep. They are NOT tactical geniuses, when left to their own devices they will make a suicide charge a'la japanese banzai.
They are led by the Vorta who run their capaigns so the Jem'Hadar are dependant on good leadership to perform.

Do they have tanks or infantry fighting vehicles? Artillery? What about air support? I hope you realize that they probably won't be getting any help from their own starships as they'll be too busy dying in orbit while battling Imperial warships.

Jen'Hadar infantry versus an Imperial force with infantry, armor, and space and air support... Ouchies for the Jem'Hadar.