Species 8472

[Master of Ossus]

MOO: If there is ample evidence shouldnt yuo be able to put some forward .

I think we are getting confused here - Im talking about shadowing after 8472 pull out not during the hot period.

The telepathy provides intel on ship location???? yeah if you have unlimited range telepathy or you are standing next to the ship

Answer me a simple question - Is infiltrating Earth likely to gather more intel that shadowing Voyager?

As for this

So "near the Borg planet they destroyed"=anywhere, to you?

He was refering to the fact that SirNitram said we hadnt seen a portal open outside of the northwest passage (despite the fact that I have mentioned it in 3 or 4 of these threads in which Sirnitram was involved in at least the first one).

Just put forward a case for their cowardice and/or their stupidity in one post because so far you havent put forward a point (that I have seen) that wasnt easily explained without your stretching of other events.

Incorrect on all counts (except for the one about when Species 8472 should have been shadowing VOY). The telepathy shown by the 8472 infiltrator did not provide them with the location or course of the ship, or it should have been able to discover that VOY was the only ship in the quadrant (remember: they had to ASK about VOY's status, as I believe you pointed out correctly, earlier).

The ample evidence has already been shown: immediately after being engaged by VOY, Species 8472 SHOULD have shadowed the vessel. There is no excuse for not doing otherwise, unless they were either stupid or cowardly or both. That is the evidence. It has not been refuted in any way (except for moronic assertions that shadowing a vessel was worthless, dangerous for a species with an alleged fleet consisting of tens of thousands of ships, or provided no additional information).

Now, infiltrating Earth PROBABLY will get you more information than shadowing VOY, but you would get even more information by doing both. What part of this is difficult to grasp?

As for Alyeska's claim about anywhere=near a single planet, it was clearly an exchange about whether or not S-8472 could be the Land Rover of Trek (go anywhere, do anything). Nitram was remembering incorrectly, but the rest of his statement must be disproven or the evidence is worthless. It was grammatically incorrect of Alyeska (at the least), to attack Nitram's statement about how S-8472 could go anywhere by giving an example of an incident in which S-8472 appeared outside of Nitram's faultily remembered Northwest Passage bit. It would have been correct if he had said something to the effect of "They may not be able to go anywhere, but they can appear outside of the Northwest Passage, like they did when:". Alternatively, he could have said, "They can go anywhere, here's why I believe that:", but his refusal to add preamble of EITHER sort leads to the conclusion that he is answering the direct challenge, instead of correcting a faulty memory.

[Alyeska]

As for Alyeska's claim about anywhere=near a single planet, it was clearly an exchange about whether or not S-8472 could be the Land Rover of Trek (go anywhere, do anything). Nitram was remembering incorrectly, but the rest of his statement must be disproven or the evidence is worthless. It was grammatically incorrect of Alyeska (at the least), to attack Nitram's statement about how S-8472 could go anywhere by giving an example of an incident in which S-8472 appeared outside of Nitram's faultily remembered Northwest Passage bit. It would have been correct if he had said something to the effect of "They may not be able to go anywhere, but they can appear outside of the Northwest Passage, like they did when:". Alternatively, he could have said, "They can go anywhere, here's why I believe that:", but his refusal to add preamble of EITHER sort leads to the conclusion that he is answering the direct challenge, instead of correcting a faulty memory.

Read what I fucking wrote you jackass. I was never the one claiming they could even ENTER the atmosphere of a planet. All I said is that evidence indicated they were NOT restricted to the Northwest Passage and there was no proof against their being able to open portals in most places. This is supported by the fact that they opened a portal near a Borg planet well outside of the Northwest Passage.

[Master of Ossus]

As for Alyeska's claim about anywhere=near a single planet, it was clearly an exchange about whether or not S-8472 could be the Land Rover of Trek (go anywhere, do anything). Nitram was remembering incorrectly, but the rest of his statement must be disproven or the evidence is worthless. It was grammatically incorrect of Alyeska (at the least), to attack Nitram's statement about how S-8472 could go anywhere by giving an example of an incident in which S-8472 appeared outside of Nitram's faultily remembered Northwest Passage bit. It would have been correct if he had said something to the effect of "They may not be able to go anywhere, but they can appear outside of the Northwest Passage, like they did when:". Alternatively, he could have said, "They can go anywhere, here's why I believe that:", but his refusal to add preamble of EITHER sort leads to the conclusion that he is answering the direct challenge, instead of correcting a faulty memory.

Read what I fucking wrote you jackass. I was never the one claiming they could even ENTER the atmosphere of a planet. All I said is that evidence indicated they were NOT restricted to the Northwest Passage and there was no proof against their being able to open portals in most places. This is supported by the fact that they opened a portal near a Borg planet well outside of the Northwest Passage.

Read what I fucking said, you jackass. I never ONCE claimed that Species-8472 should be able to enter an atmosphere. You claimed that they could go anywhere, as is demonstrated by the grammar of the exchange. You can take it back now, but you must admit grammatical error in order to do so. Alternatively, you can go with what you originally said and have your position slaughtered. There is no evidence, anywhere, that Species 8472 has the ability to open portals outside of a small portion of the Delta Quadrant. There is no evidence that they cannot open portals outside the Northwest Passage itself. Thus, we should conclude that the extent of their ability to open portals is indeterminate, but that we cannot conclude that they can open portals anywhere. That is, grammatically, what you said, whether you like it or not.

[TheDarkling]

MOO: Again what infiltrator?
Its obvious that they lost Voyager after they engaged it (and got that vessel destroyed/disabled) how does theis prove stupidity if they couldnt find the ship? unless you claim they cn find everything but simply "forgot".

Remember What infiltrator? - Answer this so I know what you are refering to.

Shadowing Voyager wont get you more intel than infiltrating earth all it will do is annoy the Feds after the 8472 withdraw, while the war was still on 8472 engaged and lost the vessel.

As for not bing able to open portals outside of a certain stretch of DQ - why? explain to me why you think so.
We know they have built their base accross the DQ, we know that they can open portals at least 10,000 LY from the Northwest passgae and we know they have holdings in the BQ.
This all points to the fact that the portals arent limited or that their range is rather large (a couple of Quadrants at least), so explain why you think its only allows entry into a small part of the DQ.
Also we have the 8472 spies begin almost ready to go and the fact that they will be on their mission within weeks (including finishing their training) - theres no mention of an 50 year travel time or anything of that nature and the Voyager crew think earth is in immediate danger, thats 8472 in the AQ.

So we have 8472 all over the DQ, We have them in the BQ (and the reference of this being fair away imlpies the far side of the Beta quadrant considering Voyagers position during Unimatrix Zero should have put it very near the DQ/BQ border) and we have them attacking the AQ, and the crew of Voyager seem to think that they could launch an assault without very much effort and no mention of a huge travel time.

Therefore we have the DQ, Probably all of the BQ and at least some of the AQ - that adds up at a low end of half the galaxy (approx) and could add to far more (like the entire galaxy).

[Alyeska]

As for Alyeska's claim about anywhere=near a single planet, it was clearly an exchange about whether or not S-8472 could be the Land Rover of Trek (go anywhere, do anything). Nitram was remembering incorrectly, but the rest of his statement must be disproven or the evidence is worthless. It was grammatically incorrect of Alyeska (at the least), to attack Nitram's statement about how S-8472 could go anywhere by giving an example of an incident in which S-8472 appeared outside of Nitram's faultily remembered Northwest Passage bit. It would have been correct if he had said something to the effect of "They may not be able to go anywhere, but they can appear outside of the Northwest Passage, like they did when:". Alternatively, he could have said, "They can go anywhere, here's why I believe that:", but his refusal to add preamble of EITHER sort leads to the conclusion that he is answering the direct challenge, instead of correcting a faulty memory.

Read what I fucking wrote you jackass. I was never the one claiming they could even ENTER the atmosphere of a planet. All I said is that evidence indicated they were NOT restricted to the Northwest Passage and there was no proof against their being able to open portals in most places. This is supported by the fact that they opened a portal near a Borg planet well outside of the Northwest Passage.

Read what I fucking said, you jackass. I never ONCE claimed that Species-8472 should be able to enter an atmosphere. You claimed that they could go anywhere, as is demonstrated by the grammar of the exchange. You can take it back now, but you must admit grammatical error in order to do so. Alternatively, you can go with what you originally said and have your position slaughtered. There is no evidence, anywhere, that Species 8472 has the ability to open portals outside of a small portion of the Delta Quadrant. There is no evidence that they cannot open portals outside the Northwest Passage itself. Thus, we should conclude that the extent of their ability to open portals is indeterminate, but that we cannot conclude that they can open portals anywhere. That is, grammatically, what you said, whether you like it or not.

The Darkling sumed it up nicely.

[Master of Ossus]

MOO: Again what infiltrator?
Its obvious that they lost Voyager after they engaged it (and got that vessel destroyed/disabled) how does theis prove stupidity if they couldnt find the ship? unless you claim they cn find everything but simply "forgot".

Remember What infiltrator? - Answer this so I know what you are refering to.

Shadowing Voyager wont get you more intel than infiltrating earth all it will do is annoy the Feds after the 8472 withdraw, while the war was still on 8472 engaged and lost the vessel.

As for not bing able to open portals outside of a certain stretch of DQ - why? explain to me why you think so.
We know they have built their base accross the DQ, we know that they can open portals at least 10,000 LY from the Northwest passgae and we know they have holdings in the BQ.
This all points to the fact that the portals arent limited or that their range is rather large (a couple of Quadrants at least), so explain why you think its only allows entry into a small part of the DQ.
Also we have the 8472 spies begin almost ready to go and the fact that they will be on their mission within weeks (including finishing their training) - theres no mention of an 50 year travel time or anything of that nature and the Voyager crew think earth is in immediate danger, thats 8472 in the AQ.

So we have 8472 all over the DQ, We have them in the BQ (and the reference of this being fair away imlpies the far side of the Beta quadrant considering Voyagers position during Unimatrix Zero should have put it very near the DQ/BQ border) and we have them attacking the AQ, and the crew of Voyager seem to think that they could launch an assault without very much effort and no mention of a huge travel time.

Therefore we have the DQ, Probably all of the BQ and at least some of the AQ - that adds up at a low end of half the galaxy (approx) and could add to far more (like the entire galaxy).

Are you people purposely being stupid so as to be annoying, or is it merely a bi-product of having to defend such a ridiculous waste of a species?

You began talking about the infiltrator that was going to make it on to Earth and find out everything there was to know about the UFP (conveniently, of course, forgetting that according to Darkling earlier in this discussion Species-8472 had no idea where Earth was, when he stated they did not know where the UFP was headquartered). I assumed that you were talking about the telepathic member of Species-8472 that made its way on board the ship by infecting crew members and then using them to walk around, but later mysteriously had to ask the crew of Voyager how many UFP ships were in the DQ (further demonstrating that they had no knowledge of where Earth was, and therefor no effective ability to infiltrate it). That also demonstrated that they did not understand the position and heading of Voyager, or they should have been able to figure out that Voyager was alone in the DQ (which could easily be gleaned by [gasp] shadowing Voyager, something which Darkling idiotically dismissed as being unecessary).

Further, Darkling justifies their actions by claiming that they lost track of Voyager, and that they are therefor not stupid. Erm, one problem: there's one alien vessel that can hurt your ships, but losing it is NOT indicative of stupidity? That doesn't make any sense. Further, disengaging by retreating to fluidic space was, in and of itself, a stupid action. They should have remained in the DQ with at least one ship, while disengaging all of their forces, in order to maintain contact with Voyager. This self-contradiction thing is getting old, guys. It can only be properly explained if S-8472 is either cowardly, or stupid, or both. The more I look at it the less cowardly and more stupid they appear to be.

And let me get this straight, you're saying that Species-8472 has an ability to INSTANTLY infiltrate all reaches of Earth, to the point where they can gain detailed and accurate information about the movements of Voyager and other UFP vessels? Because that is the ONLY scenario in which tailing Voyager would not be an appropriate course of action. There's an additional problem with this: STARFLEET didn't quite know where Voyager was. It knew only that the ship was attempting to return home, and had sporadic reports of the ship's movements. It is ludicrous to assume such farcical abilities of Species-8472. But it gets even better. You guys ASSUME that Species-8472 has the ability to open portals wherever the hell they feel like it, even though this ability has NEVER been demonstrated. You cannot simply assume that they have abilities that have never been seen on screen, or even ALLUDED TO, during their discussions. If I were to assume that the NR had a weapon that could instantly destroy any amount of matter from any distance, up to Galactic size, I clearly would be ambushed by EVERYONE on this board. You two have managed to set up a system in which you can assume that Species-8472 not only has the ability to go anywhere in the ST Galaxy, with NO proof, and no real evidence (I'm not quite sure why Alyeska refused to admit that that is what he was claiming for so long, but it finally came out irrefutably in his and Darkling's last posts), but that they also have the ability to instantly infiltrate the planet Earth, which took the FOUNDERS considerable effort to get into, AND access information from Earth that didn't even exist there! WTF is this? Everyone, look! Not only does Species-8472 do what no Trek race has ever done before in defeating the Galactic Empire, but it also has the ability to do things WITHIN TREK that are literally impossible!

Everyone on this board should find some random species, attribute them with the ability to do anything they damn well feel like doing, assume that they have the ability to do so with a minimum of effort, and then enter those races in the bid to defeat the Culture, the Empire, the B5 FO's, and the UFP! Maybe there's a planet out there that can easily conquer all of those races in seconds! After all, we have no evidence that they cannot. We can just assume that they've never wanted to in the past. After all, that's what Species-8472 gets to do.

I seriously don't think that our board has sunk this low since DarkStar. Let's just arbitrarily assign random but impossible abilities to the next species that comes along.

[TheDarkling]

WOW there is so much wrong with hat post its funny - I wouldnt be throwing around words like stupid if I were you, I will deal with it when I get back in a couple of hours kets just sa you are comlpetely wrong about the spies, you entire reasoning about Voyagers course is wrong, your assertion that 8472 should know voyage ris cut of is way off base and I have already given evidence for the wide ranging abilities of the portal - I will crush your feeble attempt when I get back (for shame MOO you have blown your own foot right off here).

[TheDarkling]

OK where to begin....

The infiltrators were infiltrators in training (obviously you need backstory so here it comes).

AFter 8472 pulled out of the DQ they realised the greatest threat to their people was the Federation so they began a program designed to gather as much information about the Federation as possible.

They constrcuted apporx 12 space stations scattered across the entire DQ - each one a mock up of San Fransico or more accurantly SF Academy and HQ.

Inside these space stations members of 8472 using a newly developed technology that allowed them to shapeshift were possing as SF personel the purpose of which was to train up before going on a mission to infiltrate earth (when Voyager discovers them they are mere weeks away from executing the plan - this is approx 8 months after the 8472 withdrawl from the DQ).

The leader of the group was pretending to be Bothby (a gardner/wiseman) upon meeting Janeway he asked how many SF ships were in the DQ and what SF intentions where, he then states that SF wont be able to destroy all of their training camps in time.

There was never an 8472 spy acting as a member of Voyagers crew and this therefore deals with a whole slew of your "gripes".

No the position and heading of Voyager - please tell me you arent this stupid - how would 8472 was on a course for earth - they may be going o something much closer along that flight path, not to mention that whenever 8472 meet Voyager they are heading for specific place not stright to earth (if you meant that the "spy" you thought they had on Voyager could access the console and not 8472 ships just by watching Voyager then that still wouldnt work since this spy didnt exist).

Lossing track of a specific ship among millions (given a distinctive ship) and one which was runnning at full pelt out of the engagement area isnt exactly high stupidity - during WW2 could you get upto the second reports on the postion of enemy infantry???? no of course not since we couldnt observe the entire earth then, its would seem that 8472 like a crystal ball with unlimited range -the fools I put my order in for one months ago

Your insistence that they risk full scale conflict with the Borg/Fed alliance (of which they knew nothing) just to keep an eye on one ship among possibly millions (they have no knowledge of Fed fleet size at this point) to gain intel they can (and intend to) get from another source with far less risk and far more gain is frankly silly.

So far you still havent given good enough reasoning and you entire position relies on a spy that never existed (bang - opps with that your leg a just shot out from underneath you?) and a shadowing idea that was unecessary and perfectly reasonable to explain their desicision.

Then we come to the fact that you have ONE event, even if we ignore reasoning and say your shadowing idea was the absolute best thing they could have done and a blind chimp would have done it since it had no drawbacks (not true), to prove that the entire race is stupid - im sorry one possibly bad choice (and it wasnt, at least not from their POV) is not enough to brand an entire race stupid.

MOO the fact that you have taken to flaming, insisting that your interpretation of someone words is more valid than the person who wrote those words (Alyeska) and outright inventing cannon (or not knowing hte subject material well enough - you could simply of asked for more info you know) seems to indicate you are going down in flames.

I await you ifs,buts,maybes and insults.

PS If you have time and its not to much trouble try to fit a fact or two in aswell - possibly even some intelligent reasoning.

[starcraft]

I think i figured out the species the strong will survive the weak will perish that is their motto the species believed they are strong when voyager destroyed the ships that made the species weak the couldn;t destroy voyager becase they are strong

[His Divine Shadow]

S8472 is pretty screwed, if, the Empire can access their dimension and fire a fullpower GG missile in there, because fluidic space is filled with matter, and a fullpower GG missile will keep converting matter to energy until there is no more in the immediate vicinity.
Theoretically it could wipe out the whole 8472 universe, or large parts of it.

[TheDarkling]

That would hurt them but I doubt in a big way that the Empire has the command of technobabble to access their domain.

[His Divine Shadow]

That would hurt them but I doubt in a big way that the Empire has the command of technobabble to access their domain.

It could just ride piggy back on a 8472 ship, a modified missile that screams towards a 8 ship as it's returning and embeds itself in it's hull then detonates after it's through, could work...

[His Divine Shadow]

That would hurt them but I doubt in a big way that the Empire has the command of technobabble to access their domain.

It could just ride piggy back on a 8472 ship, a modified missile that screams towards a 8 ship as it's returning and embeds itself in it's hull then detonates after it's through, could work...

Given the right set of circumstances that is.

[TheDarkling]

Yeah but that would only work once or twice before 8472 got wise to that - it also sems that the material their realm is filled with has some resistance to explosions since3 Voyagers torps didnt vape large amounts of it (while they are only MT we didnt even see that) you would expect the Borg to be able to creat an expolsion of similiar magnitude and yet they didnt cause mass destruction.

In conclusion - it isnt going to cause HUGE damage and it wont be long before 8472 catch on (thats if they dont just pull up and remove the warhead before going home).

This also requires that ships get within range of an 8472 attack - the imps are going to take alot of damage before they luck out in such a way.

[His Divine Shadow]

It's not about explosions and resistance to them, all it needs is matter to "feed" on.

[TheDarkling]

HDS: I thought you said GT missile as in GT level and not GG as in galaxy gun.

Was the GG ready to be put into use in the Pre ROTJ?

Also the entire point of the GG was long range firing so the galaxy gun (or what ever was firing the missile) would need to be in system and ready to fire - this aint going to be easy.

You got a little more info on the galaxy gun (do the missile need the gun or are they independant (can an ISD be used as a launch platform), how many missiles are there (enough to arm every ship with at least one?) etc).

We also know 8472 have a thing about infection - its not likely they will carry a foreign object into their realm.

[His Divine Shadow]

Was the GG ready to be put into use in the Pre ROTJ?

Nope, but all the base technologies existed, it was only a matter of creative thinking in putting them together.

[TheDarkling]

Hmmm so they need to get the tech up and running by developing it into a weapon then mass produce it and this is after they figure out how to use it (this would require them to get into fluidic space (which Im not sure they could do)) - meanwhile 8472 are having fun making planets go boom.

The Empire may be able to survive but 8472 will have knocked off enough planets that it would be a mere shadow of its former self (only systems of import would survive - Core and important inner rim worlds - they rest dont have enough protection always on station to protect them and thats making the assumption that 8472 couldnt take an ISD in a straight up fight, if they can then things begin to look even more grim for the imps).

[His Divine Shadow]

Not gonna happen, the Empire will have no problems tackling the 8's while it develops an ultimate doomsday weapon, heck that banding together to form it's non DET planetkiller is just begging for a quick death.
Plus the 8's simply do not have the capacities to seriously hurt the Empire, their observed rate of planetary distruction is hardly spectacular and I doubt they're going to do that well against heavily defended core worlds with planetary shields capable of withstanding a DS blast for a fraction of a second.

At that very moment, young Emperor Palpatine is making an inspection tour of his new Galaxy Gun.

UMAK LETH: "We're relieved you chose to return to us, Emperor."

EMPEROR: "I could not have done otherwise, Leth. Now explain the operation of this new weapon to me."

LETH: "Of course, Your Majesty! As you already know, its purpose is to launch intelligent projectiles into hyperspace... Each projectile can exist at precise coordinates, find its target... and destroy it. Its threat is absolute."

EMPEROR: "Marvelous. It's a wonder we didn't think of it decades ago -- -- my new Galaxy Weapon is sure to inspire obedience. It means the end of the Rebel Alliance! This weapon can destroy a city... a land mass... or even an entire planet anywhere in the galaxy. Everything is falling into place as I have foreseen."

(ref: Dark Empire II)

[consequences]

Species 8472 also isn't fast enough to cover large portions of the Star Wars galaxy in the time necessary.

[TheDarkling]

HDS: You dont understand the playing field - 8472 can destroy world after world without even meeting a Star destroyer, in and out within 1 minute, planetary defense (if any exist) arent going to have time to respond.

The Galaxy gun requires they enter fluidic space in the first place to figure out its a good weapon to use, they then have to position a galaxy gun (or at least the missile) near a system that is going to be hit (also not easy) and finally find someway of getting the missile into fluidic space.

This is of course after they have developed and built said weapon.

Meanwhile 8472 are blwoing up world after world, no ones saying they can take down big core worlds (at least not without losses) but worlds with no large fleets in orbit are going to be toast.

That and frankly im not even sure a single SD could respond in time to an attack (the attack itself takes approx 13 seconds with about 5 seconds of setup time), its folly to think the empire can protect all its worlds (it doesnt have the ships even taking the ship counts in the millions) and therefore 8472 can kill trillions without taking much in the way of losses.

I dopnt see big fleet enagments I see 8472 showing up in orbit of rim world x, blowing it into pieces and being gone again inside of 60 seconds - repeat for all unprotected worlds (or lightly protected worlds).

[TheDarkling]

consequences: Really and your proof is?

[consequences]

Read Wong's scorpion entry in the canon database. From my own observations, the fact that they didn't get anywhere near the vast Borg concentrations seen later in the series during a 5 month offensive.

[TheDarkling]

At least point me to what wong says on the issue.

We know they think its no great problem to make it to the AQ ( in fact they are talking like the travel time will be very minimal indeed), they have holdings in the BQ 3 years after the war.

We also know a damaged 8472 without access to his realm covered 10,000 LY in 6 months (possibly more distance-wise).

We dont nkow where they got too - not do we know how "hot" the war was we do know they vaped 100s of Borg worlds however.

[His Divine Shadow]

HDS: You dont understand the playing field - 8472 can destroy world after world without even meeting a Star destroyer, in and out within 1 minute, planetary defense (if any exist) arent going to have time to respond

Whats so special about an ISD? There arelesser ships that possess enough firepower to be serious threats.
Secondly, Imperial cells are on just about every world in the galaxy, and more are being watched even closer.
They'd know when someone begun to blow up worlds.
If any planetary defense system, like orbital weapons platforms exists, it won't take a minute to respond, or even more than a few seconds.

This is of course after they have developed and built said weapon.

Said weapon is in the head of Umak Leth, development is practically zero since all the tech exists and is mature.

Meanwhile 8472 are blwoing up world after world, no ones saying they can take down big core worlds (at least not without losses) but worlds with no large fleets in orbit are going to be toast.

I doubt they are, their rate of world destruction was terribly small when fighting the borg, if that rate of destruction is kept up, then it's not going to have any real effect but to make the populace cry for vengeance.

I dopnt see big fleet enagments I see 8472 showing up in orbit of rim world x, blowing it into pieces and being gone again inside of 60 seconds - repeat for all unprotected worlds (or lightly protected worlds).

Assuming they can keep up that rate, and you think the imps are just going to be waiting around while rim worlds are being destroyed? No, it'll set of a millitary build up that'll make the millions of ships built between ANH and TESB seem like small fry, and the most effective counter will be heavy and automated defense platforms, possibly simple spherical ones with small compound lasers to quickly obliterate any enemy that matches the signature.

The 8's simply can't destroy worlds fast enough to make any real impact before the Empire has geared up in full force and then it's pretty irrelevant wheter there is a superweapon developed or not.