Shutdown of droid armies: mass-murder?

[Kuja]

What are B2’s? Are they super battle druids?

Yes.

What would you do with the Droidekas I wonder.

What else? Professional wheels.

[Old Plympto]

What are B2’s? Are they super battle druids?

Yes.

What would you do with the Droidekas I wonder.

Then they could be employed as security guards of course.

I've used Droidekas as security guards before in my SWRPG campaign.

[Drunk Monkey]

Yes.

What would you do with the Droidekas I wonder.

Then they could be employed as security guards of course.

I've used Droidekas as security guards before in my SWRPG campaign.

Sweat!

[Isolder74]

What are B2’s? Are they super battle druids?

Playing too much D & D?

[Stravo]

In Making of Revenge of the Sith Jimmy SMits asks Lucas how he should handle the memery wipe scene. Should he be sympathetic to Threepio's plight, would it be difficult to order.

GL replies - "Think of it as emptying a garbage can, he's no more than a toaster to you." If that sums up the view of how one of the more enlightened members of the Republic (Bail) sees towards droids then we can guess how the majority would have viewed the shutdown of droids.

EDIT: In ROTS novelization more than the movie Anakin's close relationship with Artoo bewilders Obi Wan.

[Drunk Monkey]

In Making of Revenge of the Sith Jimmy SMits asks Lucas how he should handle the memery wipe scene. Should he be sympathetic to Threepio's plight, would it be difficult to order.

GL replies - "Think of it as emptying a garbage can, he's no more than a toaster to you." If that sums up the view of how one of the more enlightened members of the Republic (Bail) sees towards droids then we can guess how the majority would have viewed the shutdown of droids.

But Bail was trying to hide the truth from baby Leia so I doubt he would show any remorse what so ever toward C-3PO.

[Gil Hamilton]

We're talking about battle droids here. They're combatants. In fact, they're weapons.

But they are also clearly intelligent. Just because they are enemy soldiers doesn't mean you get to kill them after the war is over and they were captured. A nation doesn't get to execute POWs at the end of the war, at least they shouldn't (that sort of thing is a war crime and a heinous one), what they do is send them home. What it comes down to is how intelligent the battledroids are.


In general:
Battledroids are an interesting problem, just like the Clonetroopers. What do you do with them after the war? I suppose it depends on how intelligent they actually are. Sentience isn't an all or nothing proposition. You could have a battledroid who could think and talk and kill things, but have absolutely no concepts beyond that, kind of idiotsavants but more extreme. Even if they were more well rounded and it's possible that they could be reprogrammed, but then what? They are sentient, but they are also machines, and machines are built for a constructive purpose. Do you reprogram them and turn them loose, saying "Well, you're free beings, find a job. Most job training is shareware, so good luck!" Very tricky indeed.

However, if they are intelligent enough to be human equivlent, then turning them off without asking them what they wanted would be mass murder in my book. If they are sentient beings, the Republic/Empire is obligated to give them quarter once the war is over and not execute their prisoners.

Of course, StarWars people tend to have a very dubious position on murdering people they consider non-human. The Republic had anti-slavery laws, supposedly, but willingly use human beings produced like machines for the specific purpose of fighting their war for them. Even really self-righteous and idealistic people like Amidala seem like hypocrites in this regard. In RotS, Amidala was convinced that Anakin would never ever kill children when Obi-Wan told him what went down at the temple... except she of all people should know full well that Anakin was quite capable of killing children without a bit of remorse and in fact was the first person Anakin told about it when he got back from massacring the Sandpeople village. Hell, she married him shortly there after. Wonderfully self-consistant there. "Oh, Anakin would never kill younglings... well, he would but they were Sandpeople, so it doesn't count!"

[Isolder74]

In Making of Revenge of the Sith Jimmy SMits asks Lucas how he should handle the memery wipe scene. Should he be sympathetic to Threepio's plight, would it be difficult to order.

GL replies - "Think of it as emptying a garbage can, he's no more than a toaster to you." If that sums up the view of how one of the more enlightened members of the Republic (Bail) sees towards droids then we can guess how the majority would have viewed the shutdown of droids.

But Bail was trying to hide the truth from baby Leia so I doubt he would show any remorse what so ever toward C-3PO.

And keep baby Leia safe. He seemed to think R2-D2 was safe to have his memories left intact, after all.

[Cykeisme]

But the druids are Sentient non the less, witch gives them in my opinion the same rights as a human, Hutt, Rodian, Chiss or any other sentient inhabitant of the galaxy.

At most, they have the same rights as a soldier.

Would you also lament the numerous battle droids who were shot with blasters and taken apart with lightsabers, too? This is not a rhetorical question. Would you?

If sentient, witch we have seen evidence of them being then yes I would.

If you have a fundamental problem with soldiers dying in battle, even droid soldiers dying in battle, then your issue is with war itself. I guess your view is more pacifistic than most, which is not bad in any way.

Would you please stop calling droids "druids", though?

[Drunk Monkey]

In Making of Revenge of the Sith Jimmy SMits asks Lucas how he should handle the memery wipe scene. Should he be sympathetic to Threepio's plight, would it be difficult to order.

GL replies - "Think of it as emptying a garbage can, he's no more than a toaster to you." If that sums up the view of how one of the more enlightened members of the Republic (Bail) sees towards droids then we can guess how the majority would have viewed the shutdown of droids.

But Bail was trying to hide the truth from baby Leia so I doubt he would show any remorse what so ever toward C-3PO.

And keep baby Leia safe. He seemed to think R2-D2 was safe to have his memories left intact, after all.

R2 is not a talkative butler like 3PO, R2 wouldn’t say shit unless he was asked then he would tell every thing.

[Kuja]

In Making of Revenge of the Sith Jimmy SMits asks Lucas how he should handle the memery wipe scene. Should he be sympathetic to Threepio's plight, would it be difficult to order.

GL replies - "Think of it as emptying a garbage can, he's no more than a toaster to you." If that sums up the view of how one of the more enlightened members of the Republic (Bail) sees towards droids then we can guess how the majority would have viewed the shutdown of droids.

But Bail was trying to hide the truth from baby Leia so I doubt he would show any remorse what so ever toward C-3PO.

But he doesn't even deign to refer to C-3PO by name. He just refers to him as 'the protocol droid'. There's a blatent lack of emotion implicit in that language.

[Gil Hamilton]

In Making of Revenge of the Sith Jimmy SMits asks Lucas how he should handle the memery wipe scene. Should he be sympathetic to Threepio's plight, would it be difficult to order.

GL replies - "Think of it as emptying a garbage can, he's no more than a toaster to you." If that sums up the view of how one of the more enlightened members of the Republic (Bail) sees towards droids then we can guess how the majority would have viewed the shutdown of droids.

EDIT: In ROTS novelization more than the movie Anakin's close relationship with Artoo bewilders Obi Wan.

Which is kind of slimy and Smits was right. What right did they have to deprive 3PO of his memories? He's a thinking being, not a toaster. Very shady and it reflects poorly on even the best of the Republic.

[Noble Ire]

Which is kind of slimy and Smits was right. What right did they have to deprive 3PO of his memories? He's a thinking being, not a toaster. Very shady and it reflects poorly on even the best of the Republic.

This can also be seen in the Jedi in general, as they seem to have no problem wiping out droids, but often shy away from killing living combatants even in the thick of combat.

[Cykeisme]

(Lots of good stuff).

Well said.

Just to point it out at the start, we know that Sidious and Vader would have done it regardless of whether it was wrong or not, so we're discussing what would have been ethical, not what they should have done (they're meanies).
It's obvious that the fact that battle droids can be shut down like so is an important facet of the Sith master plan: once the Separatist threat has served its purpose, it should be easily neutered.

I view the shutdown of the droid army being an act no different from shooting a droid with a blaster or slashing it with a lightsaber. Just because they have a particular weakness (they can be disabled with a control signal) doesn't make it any different.

Do you reprogram them and turn them loose, saying "Well, you're free beings, find a job. Most job training is shareware, so good luck!" Very tricky indeed.

I liked that part

Raising the point on whether they could be rehabilitated is interesting. I do wonder if battle droid CPUs are complex enough that they could become independent.
However, recall that droids aren't supposed to be independent in Star Wars. They're not supposed to get jobs and become members of society at all. The vast majority of droids are possessions.

Also consider that wiping a droid's mind is done wtihout batting an eyelid. It's viewed as a task no less routine than emptying a garbage can, and probably similar for more reason than that.. it's usually done to kill off any developing sentience!

This discussion is proceeding into "are droids treated ethically in Star Wars?', leaving the specific instance of the post-Clone Wars mass shutdown.


So yes, the battle droids were being "killed". If the question is whether it's right by Star Wars standards.. well, it's not wrong, because people don't care about droids in that way.
Whether it's wrong or not by our standards.. some people may choose ti view it as murder, but I don't. I feel they're just casualties of war.


Edit: I'd closed the page for a while, when I started thinking about it again. I have a question, now..
With Grievous, Dooku and all the other top Separatist leaders dead, there wouldn't be anyone who's authorized to issue orders to the battle droids.
What would have happened to the battle droids if Darth Vader simply didn't shut them down after assassinating the Separatist leaders?

[NecronLord]

I bet you there'll be an EU story where x or y comes into possession of the deactivated droid armies, reactivates them, and wreaks havoc for a time. I can see it coming from a mile off.

Get the hell out of my head.

*Goes back to fanfic writing which includes this very idea*

Frankly, I think they're all in suspended animation. I can imagine no reason for someone as paranoid as Palpatine to decomission an army of quadrillions of loyal soldiers. In this respect, they would not be murdered, as much as forced into stasis. They deactivate regularly, to sleep. Therefore, it's more a case of sending them to sleep indefinately.

[NecronLord]

And Jews are simply a group of people. Droids are droids, and nothing like other sentient races (as far as I know).

Barring their urge to preserve themselves, their bickering, their capacity for indignity and anger, and so forth...

But then again, wouldn't this just be opening a big can of worms for difficult questions (can you make instant copies of a droid's thinking, is each copy sentient, wouldn't there be a horrendous flood on the HoloNet if each droid had safety measures to make as many back-ups as possible)?

You can make instant copies of an organic's thinking. Flash learning templates, remember?

Would you also lament the numerous battle droids who were shot with blasters and taken apart with lightsabers, too? This is not a rhetorical question. Would you?

Damn straight. I lost a lot of respect for that lying git Obi Wan when he started slaughtering unarmed pilot droids who were trying to run away (hell, one of them actually says "Not this way! Run!") from him. (I had no respect whatsoever for Anakin, so no chance to loose it.)

[Dave]

The Droids were in his way- between him and GG. The easiest way was to go through them.

Couldn't droidikas be reconfigured as ball turrets (even droid operated) for starfighters or small (but muti-person) ships?

[Iceberg]

Damn straight. I lost a lot of respect for that lying git Obi Wan when he started slaughtering unarmed pilot droids who were trying to run away (hell, one of them actually says "Not this way! Run!") from him. (I had no respect whatsoever for Anakin, so no chance to loose it.)

Because, of course, droids that are running away can't possibly receive an uplink of new instructions, grab blaster rifles and shoot you in the back in a few moments.

[NecronLord]

Which of course, they were not. We never see a pilot droid using a gun. Indeed, they require a different type of droid to act as gunners (see TPM ICS, as well as RotS the film) in all vehicles, presumably because the Pilots are not able to handle additional gunnery programming. Pilots are monotask pilot droids. Just like their name suggests. Piloting is what they do. It is all they do.

Furthermore, the corridor into which they were running was devoid of guns, as was the bridge. And someone used at least one of the escape pods before Grievous.

Let's not forget "I had to kill the USArmy truck drivers who were screaming and running away from my lightsaber. They may have been going to get guns." It doesn't work so well when one applies it to organics, does it?

[NecronLord]

The Droids were in his way- between him and GG. The easiest way was to go through them.

Actually, they weren't. Furthermore, the easiest way would in fact have been to push them out of the way, physically or via the force.

[Iceberg]

Let's not forget "I had to kill the USArmy truck drivers who were screaming and running away from my lightsaber. They may have been going to get guns." It doesn't work so well when one applies it to organics, does it?

Organics also don't have electronic transceivers in their heads that can change their "programming" at essentially the flip of a switch. A fleeing organic is no threat because their self-preservation has overridden their combativeness. A fleeing droid is still a threat until neutralized.

[Jay]

Droids are given routine memories wipes to prevent the development of 'human like characters'. Or so the entry in the starwars encyclopedia states. In which case, can we not liken this to wiping a baby's memory in order to prevent it from developing an adult mind-set?

It all boils down to whether or not droids have actual sentience, or just a very good imitation of actual sentience. Since, I have no way of proving beyond all reasonable doubt that my friends and family possess real sentience and not just some elaborate illussion, it is more logical to presume they do. Thus the same must be presumed of droids.

I find the treatment of Droids in Star Wars abhorrent.

[NecronLord]

Incorrect. It is clear that the pilot droids are panicking. One of them tries to pull another away from Obi Wan to save its life (Cameradirie I might add) and run off. Hell, for that matter, an officer droid even says 'excuse me' when it bumps into either Anakin or the pilot droid next to him.

Furthermore, pilot droids are not connected to the battle droid command network (if it even still exists. For that matter, they never where, even back in TPM). They lack the backpack receivers of the remotely controlled battle droids. They cannot be reprogrammed at the flip of a switch.

[Iceberg]

Furthermore, pilot droids are not connected to the battle droid command network. They lack the backpack receivers of the remotely controlled battle droids. They cannot be reprogrammed at the flip of a switch.

TPM:VD clearly shows that all of the basic model Neimoidian droids have a transciever complex in their heads. The backpack transcievers for the standard battledroids are probably simply for extra sensitivity to receive signals over a greater distance.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

As the thread says. It is generally accepted that droids in SW can be sentient. Is it accepted that battledroids are sentient? Particularly since we have many examples of them behaving in a very human-like fashion? And if so, was it an act of mass murder to shut down (and presumably, subsequently disassemble) the Separatist droid armies?

Yes it is. But basically, as Gil pointed out, organics in Star Wars tend to have funny, rather hypocritical ideas on sentience and rights to be bestowed based on such. In a galaxy that does memory wipes up the wazoo, they shouldn't feel a thing about murdering a few quadrillion war droids.

Battledroids are an interesting problem, just like the Clonetroopers. What do you do with them after the war? I suppose it depends on how intelligent they actually are. Sentience isn't an all or nothing proposition. You could have a battledroid who could think and talk and kill things, but have absolutely no concepts beyond that, kind of idiotsavants but more extreme. Even if they were more well rounded and it's possible that they could be reprogrammed, but then what? They are sentient, but they are also machines, and machines are built for a constructive purpose. Do you reprogram them and turn them loose, saying "Well, you're free beings, find a job. Most job training is shareware, so good luck!" Very tricky indeed.

The droids are humanoid. Give a new order saying the war is over and they have no objectives. With the basic programming, they might have enough adaptability to do something similar. For example, if a droid drove tanks, it might be able to get a job as a driver, and so on. Even an infantry droid might find a new local security force to work on.

If you have a fundamental problem with soldiers dying in battle, even droid soldiers dying in battle, then your issue is with war itself. I guess your view is more pacifistic than most, which is not bad in any way.

Lamenting that soldiers die in war is natural, not a sign of pacifism. He's just saying they should be given the same respect as organics. That's all. Nothing wrong with that. Just by putting italics around "droid", you have degraded them below organics, which is a sign of specieist thinking.

Organics also don't have electronic transceivers in their heads that can change their "programming" at essentially the flip of a switch. A fleeing organic is no threat because their self-preservation has overridden their combativeness. A fleeing droid is still a threat until neutralized.

A fleeing organic can also suddenly remember something that would cause him to change his mind and counterattack. If I happen to think you are a schizo that would change into Mass Murderer mode in an eyeblink, does that give me any justification to shoot you while you are in Normal Mode and cowering from me as I close on you with a gun?