Recently, I got into a debate on a Buffy board about this, arguing that Buffy's heaven was not morally good because it lied to her about the state of her friends. Here's how it flowed:
Redfear wrote:I think Buffy's heaven was perfectly honest. They WERE fine. Yes they had problems....well what else is new? They would have worked through those problems in time, and encountered new problems. Know what that's called? Life.
Buffy did her part and left Life to the living. The living, one cute little redhead in particular, never content to leave well enough alone, got greedy and a big smelly mess ensued. Luckily, in the course of life they worked through that too.
But it wasn't dishonest with her. Her friends were living Life. They were fine.
His Responseme wrote:I beg to Differ, Red:
From: All Thins Philosophical on BtVS:
Emphasis Mine.Heaven: Where was Buffy's spirit during the months after her death? Indications are it was in the Buffyverse equivalent of heaven. The existence of such a place has been hinted at before, but this is the first time we have had direct evidence of the place and what it is like. Buffy tells Spike,
Compared to this place, life on Earth is hell--difficult, bright, and violent.After Life wrote: "Wherever I was, I was happy. At peace. I knew that everyone I cared about was all right. I knew it. Time didn't' mean anything. Nothing had form. But I was still me, you know? And I was warm... and I was loved. And I was finished. Co
Let's see...was everyone alright?
Not really:
From All Things Philisophical:
That just ain't healthy.Dawn has become emotionally attached to the Buffybot in Buffy's absence, calling it "Buffy" and cuddling with it at night.
Giles feels useless without a Slayer around as he is without a purpose in Sunnydale. This, however, could be argued as "Natural" part of the processs, but that doesn't make it "Good" by a longshot.
Willow crossed the line into "Really screwing with the fundemental nature of the Universe" territory with Buffy's Ressurection, which is in no way good. Buffy's death sparked it, so it was not a "Natural Part of Life".
And just before she's brought back, the Hellions come to town! But I'm sure the town being taken over by demons and everyone being killed was just Natural too!
Just because something is "Natural" does not make it morally "Good' Red. And that is your fatal assumption. If something is "Natural" then it is usually considered to be morally neutral. A Lion kills a Gazell to feed. It's not Good. It's not Evil. It just is. Buffy is under the assumption that it is Good, as you are. However, Natural cannot be assigned a moral value in any case.
My Rebuttle:I never said anything about natural and good. I just said her little slice of heaven didn't really lie to her.
Yes Dawn nabbed herself an emotional attachment to the Buffybot. Eventually, she'd have gotten over it. Mighta required some therapy, mighta required a solid kick in the bum from Xander or the others, who knows. People latch onto things when loved ones die all the time. The majority of them get over it in time. That's life. No reason to think Dawn would have been any different. Some might even say it was a healthy part of the healing process.
Yes Giles felt useless. So he did something about it and went to england to pursue his own life. That sounds pretty all right to me.
As for Willow....she was dealing with a steadily worsening addiction. Well people get addicted to stuff. Willow had a strong support network around her. There's no reason to think that, but for one piss poor decision to muck around and yank Buffy back into the world of the living, she would not have eventually overcome the problem with the help of aforementioned support network.
Hellions came to town? Sounds like a typical tuesday night in Sunnydale to me. lol
Seriously, considering Spike is almost as strong as Buffy offensively, and a hell of a lot tougher defensively(Stake in the heart would kill her same as it would him...but the hundreds of other things that would kill her would hardly make a vampire miss a step) there's no reason he could not have handled the Hellions. And if Willow hadn't stoned herself on mystic crack that night, she woulda done it without breaking a sweat. So they still would have been alright.
In summary, they were alright. Yes they had problems. That's part of life. There will never be a moment in which you draw breath, that you don't have problems, big or small. NONE of their problems were insurmountable. They had everything they needed available to them to tackle each and every one of the problems they were faced with. Adversity builds character lol
Ok, so, anyone have suggestions of Arguments to use or tactics to take up? Moral Arguments are not my best.I had to clear that deeper meaning out from your statements. I'm pretty good at that.I never said anything about natural and good. I just said her little slice of heaven didn't really lie to her.
Furthermore, Heaven said that Buffy's friends were "all right", not you. I even quoted it for you.
Therefore! It's GOOD! :rolleyesYes Dawn nabbed herself an emotional attachment to the Buffybot. Eventually, she'd have gotten over it.
Again, just because it's a natural part of exsitence does not place it in the morally "Good" or "Right" area.Mighta required some therapy, mighta required a solid kick in the bum from Xander or the others, who knows. People latch onto things when loved ones die all the time.
Again, just because it is a natural part of existence does not mean that one can put a moral value on it. Taking a crap is a natural part of existence, it has been moralized as "Bad" in many religious worldviews, does that mean that taking a crap is bad? NO! It's a natural part of existence, nothing more!The majority of them get over it in time. That's life.
Oh, just because he went and did something about it automatically negates the importance of the feeling?Yes Giles felt useless. So he did something about it and went to england to pursue his own life. That sounds pretty all right to me.
Just because "She could get better!" Doesn't mean that the action itself was morally "Good".As for Willow....she was dealing with a steadily worsening addiction. Well people get addicted to stuff. Willow had a strong support network around her. There's no reason to think that, but for one piss poor decision to muck around and yank Buffy back into the world of the living, she would not have eventually overcome the problem with the help of aforementioned support network.
Then you are ignoirng the fact that the Hellions were a small ARMY, and they were having problems with a signle Vampire. So no, NOT a typical Tuesday. Sure, they may deal with it, but not after a lot of pain and hardship. Are you saying that Pain and Hardship are good? Appologietics don't work.Hellions came to town? Sounds like a typical tuesday night in Sunnydale to me. lol
Yes, let's ignore all the damage they'd cause in the meanwhile, the people they'd kill beforehand and the massive cleanup.Seriously, considering Spike is almost as strong as Buffy offensively, and a hell of a lot tougher defensively(Stake in the heart would kill her same as it would him...but the hundreds of other things that would kill her would hardly make a vampire miss a step) there's no reason he could not have handled the Hellions. And if Willow hadn't stoned herself on mystic crack that night, she woulda done it without breaking a sweat. So they still would have been alright.
Red. You need to learn this now: The Ends do not Justify the Means. Just because they'd be fine in the longrun, does not make how they got their morally good.
Here's a question: What makes that moral view "Right"?I'll go further. Even if they had all died in the Hellion attack, they were still all right...from the perspective Buffy was using at the time. They were mortal, which meant they would all die sooner or later. When exactly that happened wasn't important.
The Powers that Be are really big into "The Ends Justify the Means" type thinking, and that thinking is not moral by human standards. And we can only judge things by human standards, no matter how hard some people try.
The thing is, she WASN'T seeing them, she was simply told that they were all right.Doubtless the living can't really comprehend the way she was seeing things. In fact, she obviously lost that perspective when she came back, or being in the world again wouldn't have been painful at all.
In Conclusion:
1) Natural cycles of existence have no inherent moral value
2) The ends do not justify the means.
Sometimes, it's that simple.
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