Shutdown of droid armies: mass-murder?

[NecronLord]

Right. Assuming of course, that these droids are identical to the models many years earlier. Let's not mention that the pilot droids were seen to be idling about on the Droid Control ship's bridge talking to one another during the opening of TPM.

[NecronLord]

For that matter, if they were as controlled as you claim, why did Grievous need to shove one of them down and tell it to stay at its station. That might have been a Neiomodian, but I could have sworn it was a droid.

[Drunk Monkey]

At most, they have the same rights as a soldier.

Would you also lament the numerous battle droids who were shot with blasters and taken apart with lightsabers, too? This is not a rhetorical question. Would you?

If sentient, witch we have seen evidence of them being then yes I would.

If you have a fundamental problem with soldiers dying in battle, even droid soldiers dying in battle, then your issue is with war itself. I guess your view is more pacifistic than most, which is not bad in any way.

Would you please stop calling droids "druids", though?

Sorry but I’m typing these post in word, then cutting and pasting them. When I do the spell check it turns droid to Druid when I’m not careful.

[Iceberg]

A fleeing organic can also suddenly remember something that would cause him to change his mind and counterattack. If I happen to think you are a schizo that would change into Mass Murderer mode in an eyeblink, does that give me any justification to shoot you while you are in Normal Mode and cowering from me as I close on you with a gun?

If droids are seen as more materiel than personnel, does it not make sense to destroy them even if fleeing in order to deny their further use to the enemy?

[Iceberg]

Right. Assuming of course, that these droids are identical to the models many years earlier. Let's not mention that the pilot droids were seen to be idling about on the Droid Control ship's bridge talking to one another during the opening of TPM.

They're visibly identical to the ones seen years earlier. What evidence do we have that these battledroids are in any way different from identical units seen previously?

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

If droids are seen as more materiel than personnel, does it not make sense to destroy them even if fleeing in order to deny their further use to the enemy?

That's why it might make sense for a Star Wars citizen to do so, since what you said had already been taken as an assumption. As an outsider, however, I seriously disagree with the assumption in the first place, and consider that this assumption makes them rather morally corrupt.

To try and make you understand:
"If Wookiees are seen as subsentient, does it not make sense they be considered valid targets for indomestication?"

Knowing you, you will vehemently (and automatically) disagree with this Imperial position. Yet its basic structure is the same. First assume on that your Victim in inferior, then use that as a basis to treat him as such.

[NecronLord]

They're visibly identical to the ones seen years earlier. What evidence do we have that these battledroids are in any way different from identical units seen previously?

1 - They aren't. They're actually a different colour. It's a nitpick, with no real relevance to your point, though.
2 -They're stated in numerous secondry canon sources to now posess independant droid brains after the debacle of Naboo. While they can still be given commands via radio, they are no longer dumb terminals. In light of this, your assumption that they can be reprogrammed on the fly if unjustified.

[Gil Hamilton]

For that matter, if they were as controlled as you claim, why did Grievous need to shove one of them down and tell it to stay at its station. That might have been a Neiomodian, but I could have sworn it was a droid.

I'm pretty certain that was a Battledroid. He, like a sensible being, appeared to start to bug out when things got out of control on the bridge with two Jedi present.

[Stravo]

For that matter, if they were as controlled as you claim, why did Grievous need to shove one of them down and tell it to stay at its station. That might have been a Neiomodian, but I could have sworn it was a droid.

I'm pretty certain that was a Battledroid. He, like a sensible being, appeared to start to bug out when things got out of control on the bridge with two Jedi present.

What I have a problem with in that scenario is that why would battledroids be programmed to panic? I can understand a retreat subroutine where the battledroid calculates odds and if it reaches a certain point it retreats but when you have such an overwhleming factor like a flag officer on the Bridge - and not just any flag officer but the Supreme Commander then retreat should not be an option for the droid.

Are we then saying that battledroids have some form of independence that will allow them to disobey orders or abandon an officer in the field if the odds start turning. Seems to me that you lose the advantage of a droid army (unquestionably loyal completely disposable) when you factor in character traits like that.

It should be noted that several times in the novelization Kenobi notes that the batteldroids have been getting pregressively smarter since Geonosis.

[Gil Hamilton]

The droids are humanoid. Give a new order saying the war is over and they have no objectives. With the basic programming, they might have enough adaptability to do something similar. For example, if a droid drove tanks, it might be able to get a job as a driver, and so on. Even an infantry droid might find a new local security force to work on.

They are also machines, which give them even more flexibility when entering the job market again after being sent home, once the war is over. Assuming they aren't completely hardwired or some built in limitation, there is no reason a battledroid couldn't plug himself into a vocational training database and download a program that gives it culinary school training and a thousand hours of job experience (uploaded to public domain by other droid chefs), go to the droid wash to get a hot wax for that extra sheen, then seek employment as a chef. They'd have to compete with dedicated Chef-Bots (with their fancy chemical taste analyzers, but which the battledroid might have to go out and buy the peripheral/drivers for) and places that only allow organics to be cooks, but it could happen. The good part of being programmable is you can just download a new job program if things don't work out.

[Gil Hamilton]

What I have a problem with in that scenario is that why would battledroids be programmed to panic? I can understand a retreat subroutine where the battledroid calculates odds and if it reaches a certain point it retreats but when you have such an overwhleming factor like a flag officer on the Bridge - and not just any flag officer but the Supreme Commander then retreat should not be an option for the droid.

Are we then saying that battledroids have some form of independence that will allow them to disobey orders or abandon an officer in the field if the odds start turning. Seems to me that you lose the advantage of a droid army (unquestionably loyal completely disposable) when you factor in character traits like that.

It should be noted that several times in the novelization Kenobi notes that the batteldroids have been getting pregressively smarter since Geonosis.

You'd think, but it seems that the Battledroids were made to be alot like people, not just dedicated pilot-bots or soldier-bots. They seem to be given alot more concepts than are necessary for their job function, even things that would be detrimental, like having to actually vocally talk to each other rather than something more high speed a radio broadcast or a point-to-point infrared beam. Or them going "OW!" when someone whacks of a limb.

That's what makes this kind of sick. There is no reason to make battledroids that wig out when things go wrong, you'd think it would make them less effective and as you say, eliminate one of the advantage of having a droid army to begin with. Yet they clearly do get scared and try to save each other when things go wrong, and flee, so they must have been purposely made that way. That seems needlessly cruel of the Trade Federation and horribly inefficent.

(Of course, it was probably just George Lucas trying to be cute with his robots, but it's far more horrifying than cute)

[NecronLord]

Are we then saying that battledroids have some form of independence that will allow them to disobey orders or abandon an officer in the field if the odds start turning. Seems to me that you lose the advantage of a droid army (unquestionably loyal completely disposable) when you factor in character traits like that.

The Invisible hand carries one and half million ground troops An acclamator carries a few thousand. That's the advantage of battle droids.

Also, Pilot droids were never intended to be put in that situation. Further, they're not able to take action against the orders of their Masters anyway. 3PO didn't want to be mindwiped, but went passively anyway. The only reason R2D2 was so rebellious in ep 3 is because he didn't view Luke as a legitimate owner.

As their owners view them as non-sentient, despite the fact that they are, they are still disposable.

It should be noted that several times in the novelization Kenobi notes that the batteldroids have been getting pregressively smarter since Geonosis.

Kenobi is also an idiot. Not entirely his fault though. Old Syle Jedi are indoctinated not to thin about things from early childhood, but to trust in the will of the force.

[NecronLord]

You're right, it is disgusting. Frankly, I hope that at the time of the Journal of the Whills, R2D2 becomes a droid Spartacus and beats the shit out of whatever government is going at the time, and this is why he has someone chronicaling his life's story.

[Admiral Valdemar]

I don't think I can add anything else, but I certainly agree that the SW galaxy's treatment of droids in general is below depraved. The way Artoo has saved lives in the past would at least make you think maybe, just maybe, they'd see them as true individuals who can be good and bad like organics. Depending on who gets to them, they can go either way like any Human who may be turned to the Light or Dark Side.

[Noble Ire]

I don't think I can add anything else, but I certainly agree that the SW galaxy's treatment of droids in general is below depraved. The way Artoo has saved lives in the past would at least make you think maybe, just maybe, they'd see them as true individuals who can be good and bad like organics. Depending on who gets to them, they can go either way like any Human who may be turned to the Light or Dark Side.

It seems that their treatment all depends on their owners. Some, often fighter pilots like Luke, Anakin, and Wedge, grow very attached to their astromechs, and their general view on droids is bettered. Other indaviduals also seem to view droids as sentient (although still perhaps not as important as organics), but overall, even the most intellegent droids are viewed as completely disposable hardware.

[Glimmervoid]

I bet you there'll be an EU story where x or y comes into possession of the deactivated droid armies, reactivates them, and wreaks havoc for a time. I can see it coming from a mile off.

Get the hell out of my head.

*Goes back to fanfic writing which includes this very idea*

Frankly, I think they're all in suspended animation. I can imagine no reason for someone as paranoid as Palpatine to decomission an army of quadrillions of loyal soldiers. In this respect, they would not be murdered, as much as forced into stasis. They deactivate regularly, to sleep. Therefore, it's more a case of sending them to sleep indefinately.

In the rouge squander 3 computer game you fought battle droids on Geonosis. I think they were meant to have been left behind or reactivated or something it was never fully explained. It was set in the OT eara.

[Glimmervoid]

What I have a problem with in that scenario is that why would battledroids be programmed to panic? I can understand a retreat subroutine where the battledroid calculates odds and if it reaches a certain point it retreats but when you have such an overwhleming factor like a flag officer on the Bridge - and not just any flag officer but the Supreme Commander then retreat should not be an option for the droid.

My guess it would be an unintentional side effect of making them smart and independent enough to be able to fight on a rapidly changing battle field environment.

[Grandmaster Jogurt]

That's what makes this kind of sick. There is no reason to make battledroids that wig out when things go wrong, you'd think it would make them less effective and as you say, eliminate one of the advantage of having a droid army to begin with. Yet they clearly do get scared and try to save each other when things go wrong, and flee, so they must have been purposely made that way. That seems needlessly cruel of the Trade Federation and horribly inefficent.

Who wais that it has to have been programmed in? It's been stated in several sources that if droids survive for a long time without memory wipes, they develop idiosyncrasies. Since the Invisible Hand is the flagship of both General Grievous and Count Dooku, the experience of these most likely long-lived pilots might be too valuable to wipe away. There's a possibility that this was simply a trait that developed from the retreat subroutine.

[Iceberg]

I don't think I can add anything else, but I certainly agree that the SW galaxy's treatment of droids in general is below depraved. The way Artoo has saved lives in the past would at least make you think maybe, just maybe, they'd see them as true individuals who can be good and bad like organics. Depending on who gets to them, they can go either way like any Human who may be turned to the Light or Dark Side.

As far as the OP goes, I work with computers too much to see shutting one down as particularly immoral. Nothing that the computer is, is lost when shut down, it's simply not accessible. Hell, Threepio shuts himself down twice, is shut down by Han once and blasted apart with no lasting ill effect on two other occasions.

[Iceberg]

The droids are humanoid. Give a new order saying the war is over and they have no objectives. With the basic programming, they might have enough adaptability to do something similar. For example, if a droid drove tanks, it might be able to get a job as a driver, and so on. Even an infantry droid might find a new local security force to work on.

Assuming they aren't completely hardwired or some built in limitation, there is no reason a battledroid couldn't plug himself into a vocational training database and download a program that gives it culinary school training and a thousand hours of job experience (uploaded to public domain by other droid chefs), go to the droid wash to get a hot wax for that extra sheen, then seek employment as a chef.

I can think of a reason:

"That's the saltiest thing I've ever tasted! And I once ate a heaping bowl of salt!"

[MrAnderson]

As the thread says. It is generally accepted that droids in SW can be sentient. Is it accepted that battledroids are sentient? Particularly since we have many examples of them behaving in a very human-like fashion? And if so, was it an act of mass murder to shut down (and presumably, subsequently disassemble) the Separatist droid armies?

Are droids really sentient or are they just programmed to appear sentient to make it easier for people to associate with them and work with them?

[Glimmervoid]

As the thread says. It is generally accepted that droids in SW can be sentient. Is it accepted that battledroids are sentient? Particularly since we have many examples of them behaving in a very human-like fashion? And if so, was it an act of mass murder to shut down (and presumably, subsequently disassemble) the Separatist droid armies?

Are droids really sentient or are they just programmed to appear sentient to make it easier for people to associate with them and work with them?

Are humans really sentient or are we just faking it.

If humans doing X makes them sentient why dose a robot that can do X not sentient.

Humans could just be organic computers that can fake sentence like you are subjecting the droids do.

[MrAnderson]

As the thread says. It is generally accepted that droids in SW can be sentient. Is it accepted that battledroids are sentient? Particularly since we have many examples of them behaving in a very human-like fashion? And if so, was it an act of mass murder to shut down (and presumably, subsequently disassemble) the Separatist droid armies?

Are droids really sentient or are they just programmed to appear sentient to make it easier for people to associate with them and work with them?

Are humans really sentient or are we just faking it.

If humans doing X makes them sentient why dose a robot that can do X not sentient.

Humans could just be organic computers that can fake sentence like you are subjecting the droids do.

Given enough time one can write a program today that can answer just about any question. Ask questions on its own. Decide based on a random variable check to be slower at some things or at certain times. Basically "act" like a person in just about every way. Sure it might be a bit clunky and you would have to program it to be huge or people would notice quickly it repeating answers.

Would you call that program sentinent?

[Isolder74]

I guess we have to run it througha turing test then.

I think 3PO would pass but i don't know about the battle droids

[NecronLord]

I guess we have to run it througha turing test then.

I think 3PO would pass but i don't know about the battle droids

"What's that..." "It's nothing, get back to work" "Stupid little astro droid!" ...