The Dominion vs The Empire

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Post by Asdeed »

Martok wrote:
And here's Trolly McMartok selectively quoting from a lengthy post by Stravo.
blah blah fucking blah, I'm not perfect, I make mistakes, I do stupid things, I use unfair persuasive techniques without thinking too. You're being more a Troll than me with that useless post. It was the biggest "Me too" load of crap. I'm sure Stravo can make his own point without you being attached to his arse, hey.. just like he did.
Oh yeah, you're a wonderfully reasonable debater. I like how you ignore (again) the body of the post though to try and snip out something you can deal with. Asshat.

So you still haven't dealt with the issue of probe droids other than to say "I don't think it's practical". Worthless argument, you lose.

Haven't dealth with the massive speed advantage the Empire has even without a single map except to say "they'll have to move slowly and methodically". So what? It's still hundreds of times the speed of the Dominion. You lose.

Anti-polaron weapons? Who the fuck cares? Even if they could get a few shots through the shields it makes NO DIFFERENCE. The Empire can pick and choose when and where to engage so they'll have the advantage regardless. You lose.

Orbital bombardment. "They would never do it cause they wanna live on those worlds". Uhmm, go tell that to the Alderaanians. If they don't think they can take it, they sure as hell WILL kill it. So again, you lose.

Now of course you'll quote me calling you an asshat and scream about vulgarity. Gosh, never seen THAT technique before... fucking halfwit.
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Post by Patrick Degan »

Martok wrote:The Jem'Hadar occupation force of Cardassia was 10 million strong. Jem'Hadar are mass produced soldiers ready to fight 3 days after birth. They require no food, no sleep. They are NOT tactical geniuses, when left to their own devices they will make a suicide charge a'la japanese banzai.
They are led by the Vorta who run their capaigns so the Jem'Hadar are dependant on good leadership to perform.
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Post by 18-Till-I-Die »

Perhaps this is a little unfair but we also must consider Imperial strategic weapons besides their individual starships.

Depending on when and what era of the Empire this is, they could have anything from a single Death Star which could probably take out the entire Federation fleet on it's own...or fleets of World Devastators and Galaxy Gun missiles.

Either way they have a plethora of superweapons which they most certainly would use, IF the Dominion proved difficult to crack that is.
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Post by Crown »

One World Devastator would be enough to ensure that logistics of re-supply is well and truely taken care of.
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Post by Martok »

:shock:

I hereby whiteflag under weight of numbers.

I also make the following consessions...

Hyperdrive is fast and is a huge logistical advantage, never did I deny this I was merely TRYING to state it's effectiveness would be slightly nerfed by an unfamiliar environment.

I do not have the time to successfully answer 10+ posts between my own, I have a full time job, study 3 nights a week and have 2 children (including a baby) so this thread is going to go a long way to nowhere. So, I offer my apologies to those I selectively quoted to shorten my response time and those I appeared to 'ignore' due to time constraints.

I reserve the following points

The Dominion will put up a good fight, another time for this one.

Phased polaron beams are no more technobabble than "turbolasers" "phasers" or "photon torpedos". They are the primary weapon of the dominion, how they work to ignore shields requires discussion and investigation, nowhere did I allude to their impact on the argument, only to their function.

Also theoretical mathematics is not the be all and end all of an argument. Hypothesis and rebuttal is very important, even if the hypothesis is based on incomplete information.

Finally in the words of Plato (with apologies): "Where the evidence leads, so shall I stand."

I'll see you all in other less time consuming and controversial threads...
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Post by SirNitram »

Martok wrote:I reserve the following points

The Dominion will put up a good fight, another time for this one.
'A Good Fight' requires the ablity to soak more than one hit. Would you like to see the quoted firepower of an Acclamator Troop Transports guns? Here:

200GT per shot.(AOTC ICS)

That is why there's no fight.
Also theoretical mathematics is not the be all and end all of an argument. Hypothesis and rebuttal is very important, even if the hypothesis is based on incomplete information.
Math lets us make hypothesises which fit the data.
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Post by Ghost Rider »

Just for the record of how bad you lost.

Go to the front page...click This link.

Then come back with "Math isn't the end all be all.". I'm glad you whine and bitch that objective evidence is against you and then go "I have a life and kids.". Good for you, pissant. Because we are all twelve year olds circle jerking over a George Lucas polaroid. :roll:
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Post by Martok »

I'm glad you whine and bitch that objective evidence is against you and then go "I have a life and kids.". Good for you, pissant. Because we are all twelve year olds circle jerking over a George Lucas polaroid
I wasn't making any implication with my statement, I was excusing my lack of ability to spend significant and extended periods replying to multiple posts. It was an apology and justification, not a reflection on anyone else.
Just for the record of how bad you lost.

Go to the front page...click This link.
I still contend that the numbers are not the end to the argument, but please, i've conceded this thread and don't want to start more random crap about AN OPINION that i've made no attempt to justify.
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Post by Ghost Rider »

Martok wrote:
I'm glad you whine and bitch that objective evidence is against you and then go "I have a life and kids.". Good for you, pissant. Because we are all twelve year olds circle jerking over a George Lucas polaroid
I wasn't making any implication with my statement, I was excusing my lack of ability to spend significant and extended periods replying to multiple posts. It was an apology and justification, not a reflection on anyone else.
Then don't claim extenuating circumstances. Everyone has obligations to met that far exceed the board, you were bombarded because you had nothing but the flimisest of arguements.
Just for the record of how bad you lost.

Go to the front page...click This link.
I still contend that the numbers are not the end to the argument, but please, i've conceded this thread and don't want to start more random crap about AN OPINION that i've made no attempt to justify.
Then don't make claims you have no way of backing. You provided nothing but your opinions. This is no different then the random flat earth rabid nut who thinks it counts for anything.

Provide OBJECTIVE proof. If you can't, learn to bow out.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Martok wrote:Also theoretical mathematics is not the be all and end all of an argument. Hypothesis and rebuttal is very important, even if the hypothesis is based on incomplete information.
On the contrary, mathematics allows us to separate subjective bullshit from objective predictions. Consider the following statements:
  1. That stuff is really fucking hot, so it should melt steel.
  2. That stuff is around 800 K, which is well below the melting point of steel which is around 1800K, so it should not melt steel.
Which statement do you think makes more sense? Oh yes, the one with NUMBERS.
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Post by Martok »

First.. Ghostrider, i've let it go, please let me.. I was attempting to address people upset I hadn't responded to their points. I was up till 3am trying desperately to get to everyone but couldn't do it, if I didn't have so little free time I may still have given it a shot. Because I couldn't and was essentially bugging out I wanted to provide a reason.. not just say "later bye"

Second. Agreed mathematics is a fantastic way to provide theoretical proof of an assertion, evidence based on observation is too.

1. That thing is fucking hot, i'm sure it would melt steel.

2. *places fucking hot thing on steel* Oh.. no it doesn't

Sure I haven't quantified what has occured, but it still did. My hypothesis was disproved through experiment and observation. I guess this is a better way of saying what I meant, thanks for the leg up.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Martok wrote:Agreed mathematics is a fantastic way to provide theoretical proof of an assertion, evidence based on observation is too.

1. That thing is fucking hot, i'm sure it would melt steel.

2. *places fucking hot thing on steel* Oh.. no it doesn't

Sure I haven't quantified what has occured, but it still did. My hypothesis was disproved through experiment and observation. I guess this is a better way of saying what I meant, thanks for the leg up.
And this is totally irrelevant to any of your arguments unless you can verify your predictions by directly testing each and everyone (non-quantifiable predictions do not allow for extrapolation), and that is impossible in a crossover argument.
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Post by Admiral_K »

Martok wrote: lots of stuff
Even if we grant you that Dominion phased polaron beams can penetrate SW shields same as they did feddy shields, they still would be getting vaporized in single blasts from Star Wars capship weaponry. Standard Imperial fighters aren't shielded anyway, so no added advantage there.

At any rate, any such advantage would be negated through the course of the war (as the Federation found a way to stop the shield penetration), so unless the Dominion used this brief advantage to some score enough victories to at least insure a stalemate, then this technology is irrelevent. Given the lack of speed and sheer firepower on their vessels they don't stand much of a chance.

Ramming is not an option, for if Executor's shields could withstand 3 ISDs ramming it comming out of hyperspace, then surely the Gemmy Bugs wouldn't be able to do much damage so long as the ISD's shields were up.

In regards to troops, quite frankly it doesn't matter. You're not likely to see many boarding actions, if any. And as far as planetside combat goes, the Imperials would ALWAYS have air supperiority from orbit and be able to bombard enemy forces. Stormies would mop up any survivors with relative ease.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, yes it would be more of a "fair fight" than against the Feddies, but not much more fair.
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Post by jegs2 »

Ford Prefect wrote:But he has a valid point. Will the Empire simply be able to jump straight to their target. Its dangerous (read: suicidal) to make a jump to lightspeed without coordinates, as Han says to Luke.
Use small (and expendable) scout ships equipped with hyperdrive. Find, overtake a local ship (merchant) and download star charts. While it might take time to figure them out and translate them, I see no reason for hurrying.
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Post by Trekdestroyer »

It seems our amigito has fled, apparently after having experienced a thousnd turbolaser barrage from the general public here. That is a great lesson in poor planing, if you can't see your arguments to completion then don't post them on a public board. On a different note, if anyone would like to place bets as to when MarTOKE will respond then please procede to the tent.
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Post by Stark »

If he'd been able to see why he was wrong, instead of clinging to his preconceptions, he would've been alright. Oh well.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Stark wrote:If he'd been able to see why he was wrong, instead of clinging to his preconceptions, he would've been alright. Oh well.
He was one of those "I concede all the reasons you gave me why I'm wrong, but ... I'm still right" people.
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Post by Lord Zentei »

I shall never understand people who claim that the Dominion could reasonably challenge the Empire, when on the one hand you have the the colossal disparity between the Empire and the Federation on the record and on the other you have the fact that the Federation and two allies of roughly similar power (the Klingons and Romulans) could give the Dominion a reasonable fight. Orders of magnitude worth of difference in power are an unforgiving thing.
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Post by Brian Young »

I've just read through this thread. I am a bit disappointed with you guys. Along comes a Trekkie who seems much more intelligent than the average Trekkie debater, and is quite pleasant too. He asked very nicely what everyone thought of the Dominion vs the Empire, and if it would be more fair than the Federation. You guys pounded him to a pulp like he was Darkstar or something.
This was an opportunity to educate a newbie, who would have been receptive to it. But you estranged him.
Remember in 20,000+ years there are still unmapped or poorly mapped areas of Wars space.
Actually, that is based on secondary sources in the EU. Canon sources (films, scripts, etc.) trump those. In "Attack of the Clone," the Jedi librarian said "If it is not in our archives, it does not exist." Thus, all of those "pie slice" sections on EU galactic maps of "unknown regions" simply don't exist in canon. Dooku removed the files of Kamino. If we take the woman's word seriously, and she seemed serious, every planet in the galaxy, and the two satelite galaxies presumably, that Dooku didn't remove, are in the archives. Kenobi and Yoda were both confused that a planet wasn't on the charts, to the point that they had to think about it for a while.
Also note that in TESB, Piett knew immediately that Hoth was supposed to be "devoid of Human forms."
The entire galaxy is thoroughly mapped. Probably the two satelite galaxies too.
Lucas says in the commentary of ANH that the Falcon takes a few seconds to calculate coordinates, because it travels outside normal lanes. That is why it is so fast. It doesn't actually travel faster, but takes shorter routes than everyone else. Behind the scenes quotes aren't canon, but being an official DVD release, could be considered as secondary evidence.

As far as this scenario, as someone pointed out, you gave no time limit. Thus, the arguments about mapping the place are valid.

Yes, the Dominion would be a better adversary than the Federation. But they would be terribly overmatched. Even against just Vader's small fleet of 6 ships.

Okay, if the technobabblon beams can penetrate Imperial shields? If that were so, those beams would still have to contend with thick armor plating that is also superdispersive. Recall the armor on AT-ATs in TESB. "That armor's too strong for blasters!" Imagine a mile-long ship covered with that same stuff, but thicker. Even if these beams could go right through the shields, the Imperial ships could destroy Dominion ships before the Dominsion ships could destroy the Imperial ships. The firepower difference is that great - the Imperial weapons would go right through the Dominion shields too, but by brute force. So, in this scenario, it would be weapons vs hulls. Imperial ships have stronger hulls and stronger weapons.

The Ewok thing is actually just as valid as many Trek scenarios used here. But note a few things:
*The Ewoks were not winning. They occupied the troops' attention enough to allow the Rebels to get into the bunker.
*Their tactics to take out the AT-STs were ingenious. Using huge native trees to trip or crush them is very effective. This obviously took a lot of preparation.
*Ewoks are very strong. They threw rocks that looked very heavy. It knocked the troops down.
*I never saw an arrow hurt a trooper.
*As Mike said, most of the troops were at the other end of the compound.
*The battle was won because Han infiltrated the bunker, with the help of the AT-ST Chewbacca captured. The Ewoks caused enough confusion to allow this to happen. I don't know who saw the Ewoks route the troops, but you saw a different movie than I did. :)
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Post by Darth Wong »

Brian Young wrote:I've just read through this thread. I am a bit disappointed with you guys. Along comes a Trekkie who seems much more intelligent than the average Trekkie debater, and is quite pleasant too. He asked very nicely what everyone thought of the Dominion vs the Empire, and if it would be more fair than the Federation. You guys pounded him to a pulp like he was Darkstar or something.
He was polite, but chose to ignore points that he could not address, while still restating assumptions that were dealt with by those points. There is a huge difference between that sort of poster (Timothy Jones fell into that pattern) and an actual intelligent, reasonable debater.
This was an opportunity to educate a newbie, who would have been receptive to it. But you estranged him.
Because after the first few responses (which were polite), he ignored the parts that did not suit his argument. You are assuming he would have been receptive to it. And his other arguments, which went farther and farther down the Trektard path, only indicated that our assessment was correct: he was one of those people who was trying to use an appearance of politeness as a smokescreen for standard-issue Trektard behaviour.
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Post by Martok »

Next time you're in a room of say, 20 people and you're a lone voice arguing against all 20 who believe something else and every time you say anything you get shouted down, then try and act totally calm and rational. Maybe you can, maybe you're a better person then me... like I said previously I got frustrated and said some stupid shit. Hence TRYING to back out somewhat gracefully.. it seems all you rabid dogs care about is devouring, so i'm outta here.

I have always been more receptive to reason than ranting. Swearing is one thing, but mindless insults attacking someone's credibilty becuase of simple error is just messed up. I began my post as a discussion NOT a confrontation, but all anyone wants to do it shoot down a point, offer nothing constructive in return and then laugh at the "stupid trekkie".

Take a look around your board, notice the lack of any "debate" regarding the issue you procalim to care so heavily about? I see is too much "me too" masturbation. Hence I thought I could contribute to some interesting discussion, I am as big a fan (probably bigger) of Star Wars then Star Trek. I see the merits of both and have discussed the vs. issue in the past.

Maybe I shouldn't be so harsh, it seems you've been flooded with so many idiots that a bit of defensiveness was probably a certainty, however apart from some poor debating techniques I hardly think It was necessary to flame a total noob before they'd reached 20 posts, especially when i'd displayed no antisocial behaviour beyond some shitty arguments.

I really dont have the desire to face such "anti Trekkie" prejudice and have to take months to "prove myself" because so few are willing to wait and judge on merit.

If you're going to continue goading trekkies, and believe me, anger and frustration make totally reasonable people say pretty stupid things, you're going to have a great lack of 'debate' and only have troll after troll on here to call you nerds and give shit.

So farewell, seemingly not the place for me. Good luck with the board though, dispite my rant I can see you're mostly smart, intersting people. But the personality clash is obvious so it's better I leave now.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Martok wrote:i'd displayed no antisocial behaviour beyond some shitty arguments.
You obviously don't understand that on this board, shitty arguments are considered antisocial behaviour. If you don't like those rules, feel free to get the fuck out and take your whiny bullshit with you.

Do you know why nobody debates that the Dominion could take the Empire? Because only a fucking retard would seriously think that. You act as though the lack of people promoting this view means that we're all close-minded or something, but every argument to that effect has been raised and crushed before. And polite stupidity is still stupidity.
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Post by Admiral_K »

Martok wrote:. Hence TRYING to back out somewhat gracefully.. it seems all you rabid dogs care about is devouring, so i'm outta here.
Is that the Klingon thing to do?

:lol:
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Post by Darth Wong »

Seriously, I'm fed up with n00b retards who think that this board should conform to the rules of other forums where polite stupidity is considered acceptable.
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Post by Knife »

Darth Wong wrote:Seriously, I'm fed up with n00b retards who think that this board should conform to the rules of other forums where polite stupidity is considered acceptable.
True, but it bites you in the ass when you travel outside. I'm arguing with Newland on his board, and even though I'm trying and toneing down, it is hard to not call him an asshat for some of his more pathetic shit.

Still, he doesn't like being called 'silly' or when I call him a 'tard'.
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