The World and Clone/Droid armies

[Stravo]

Say that the US and other developed powers get the technology to build clone armies a la the Grand Army of the Republic and Droid technology a la the Trade Federation. To avoid firepower issues like a battalion of clones leveling the North East I'm talking about weapons of today with the technology of Star Wars to build intelligent battledroids and advanced cloning technology.

So in essence we would have Clones sporting M-16's and Flak jackets and Droids made out of some light aluminum for the B-1's and some sort of steel alloy for the super bd's each one sporting conventional weapons like the super battledroids would have arm mounted M-60 machine guns or .50 calliber mg's. You get the idea. No blasters or advanced armor.

The balance would be that Clones are more expensive in the long run with training and care but Battledroids require a retooling of industry and a giant sucking sound in terms of raw material. Say initial deployment time would be the same in terms of the first wave (Battledroid construction facilities need to be built, droid progrmamming created, etc and Clones need to be grown) but after that Battledroid production can outstrip clone production. Also either one of these options is somehow magically cheaper or as expensive as fielding modern armies.

Now which option would the US or any other nations in the West choose?

Do you think Clone armies would be anethema to many Western states? What about anywhere else in the world? Religious instituions may have fits of apoplexy IMO.

Would people be worried of a droid revolt?

What about proliferation of this technology to the Third World? Some tinpot down in South America starts growing Clone battalions while North Korea retools its factories for droid production.

How would having massive armies that are disposable change the way wars are fought? Would we see more interventions from the US if we knew the people being killed by road side bombs were clone troops or cheap battledroids? Would dictators be more adventurous knowing that he can swamp his neighbors with battledroids?

Have fun with the scenario.

[Admiral Valdemar]

A clone army wouldn't come about in the West because of the stigma attached to the whole idea, but also the fact that clones are susceptible to bioweapons more so given their genetic make-up is all identical. If you can make droids and clones, you can make a bug to get at the latter.

Droids circumvent this problem, but have the issue of intelligence and ingenuity that may not be as great as in humans. They also are suscpetible to electronic warfare and EMP without a lot of shielding that adds to the cost. Problems arise with the potential for your army also being turned against you because of this, though it should be a small risk against most opponents. They typically are cheaper and quicker to produce than clones, but one-on-one, they aren't as capable it seems until you reach the more advanced models.

I couldn't see us adopting fully one side or the other, but I can imagine certain facets of each technology being used to some extent. The less restricted nations when it comes to morality etc. would likely jump at the chance to have an elite fighting force or mass produced army, so I could imagine knock-offs of the technology getting on the black market and going to former Warsaw nations and S. American or Asian countries.

If the Bolo books taught me anything, it's that humanity still has to play a part in these wars or else it may as well be a videogame of sorts. We wouldn't have fully independent and somewhat more disposable armies if it meant removing ourselves from the issues they're meant to fight for. Real people start these wars so they'll be in every step. With the clones and droids it'd be a question of acceptance then as well. If the clones are expendable, how do they live in our society and what is their image? If robots as smart as the droids in SW can be made, then do we accept the machines as Human or just more advanced toys? It's not a scenario I can fully comprehend.

[Robert Walper]

I'd think the droid route would be by far the most likely. It seems rather immoral to me to create humans for the sole purpose of fighting and dying for warfare.

Droids on the other hand, while argueably possessing intelligence, aren't human. They are our creations to do with as we please.

In the end, I'd pick droids to be destroyed over humans (clones or not) dying.

[kheegster]

I don't particularly see the point in clone armies, since technology and training is a great equaliser as far as physical ability of soldiers is concerned. The average army grunt in a modern army is very much physically inferior compared with a Spartan heavy infantryman or even a Stone age warrior, but nevertheless the modern soldier is infinitely more capable.

So there really isn't much advantage over using cloned soldiers over regular ones, unless clones are really much cheaper.

[Zero]

Clones couldn't be realistically produced in mass any faster then humans, and would still require the same amounts of training as a normal man. They have no advantages at all against a normal army, really. As for droids, they could be mass produced, and programmed in such a way that they require no training. It would be a quick, disposable, and usefull force. Also, nobody would complain about the immorality of creating a robot to fight and die for you, but many would raise hell about creating clones. The droids seem much more practical.

[wolveraptor]

Suppose we invent some wanktastic method of cloning similar to the Spaarti method in Star Wars, i.e. no 20 year wait for them to become adults? I'm guessing then clones would be far superior.

But I have to wonder how much a modern army even needs foot soldiers? Aren't they invalidated by tanks and airstrikes (unless you plan on taking a city without blowing the shit out of it)?

[Zero]

Even if we didn't have the 20 year wait, the clones would still require training, whereas the droids wouldn't. If they were really born at age 20, would they have the cognitive abilities of a baby? Would they be able to figure out what the world was about, how to speak, anything? Why would clones have any kind of rational advantage?

[wolveraptor]

Even if we didn't have the 20 year wait, the clones would still require training, whereas the droids wouldn't. If they were really born at age 20, would they have the cognitive abilities of a baby? Would they be able to figure out what the world was about, how to speak, anything? Why would clones have any kind of rational advantage?

I said it was wanktastic. I believe in starwars, there's some method of flash implanting memories and learning onto the clones.

The obvious advantage of clones is that they can be creative and can have ingenuity. Their disadvantages are: they can be mass-infected by a specially designed virus, they can lack moral, and they are less likely to obey orders under harsher circumstances. If they were flash-imprinted with the memories of one who was indoctrinated for warfare, then the latter two problems would be minimized.

[Coyote]

Considering not just the religious issue of the clones, and the inevitable "Clones-Rights" movement that would follow, the clones are suceptible to chemical and biological warfare that most of our Thirs World enemies might actually have or pull from their asses.

The nuclear and EMP/Enhanced Rad weapons that would be a danger to droids are beyond the reach and ability of most of our potential enemies. So your bottom line, in the long run, is better with droids-- and the "bottom line" is where a lot of these decisions end up getting made.

Plus, there's the motivation on our enemies: Clones would most definitely be seen as abominatios of Allah and motivate pretty much even the most gentle fence-sitting Muslim into a frothing rage of disgust. Whereas with destroying "infidel droids" there's a distinct lack of satisfaction ("Remember, Akhmed, every droid you kill will serve you in Paradise" "Gee, thanks a lot, Osama").

Casualty-averse Americans also wouldn't care one rat's ass about "dead" droids. There'd be no propaganmda victory to destroying them-- remember the news pictures of jubilant fighters shooting down US drones? Fuck, what pathos. Yippee, you beat up a toy.

[Zor]

There is another thing you should be aware of...

Lets just say that for some reason we do begin making clone troopers, vast armies of soldiers trained from birth to be soldiers. But what happens when we discharge them? These people would be thrown into a completly diferent world and they might not be able to adapt. This is going to cause problems.

Zor

[Raven]

Without advanced technology from Star Wars, clones are no different from ordinary humans.
Except these you have to feed and take care of for 20 years before they can fight for you.

One can argue that a lifetime of training makes for a more effective soldier, but that doesn't really work, or else we'd be running around with armies of uberwanked Master Chiefs killing everything.
When the clone you've trained for 20 years (who really won't be 20 times more effective than the man you've trained for 1) gets blown up by an IED, you'll cry.

An element necessary for Palpatine's plan was secrecy. Quietly placing an order (10 years in advance, no less) for a clone army draws no attention. Announcing a conscription order for a Grand Army of the Republic makes people go apeshit.
Additionally, to ensure that the army is ready to fight the Seperatists by AOTC, he'll have to get started years in advance. In a republic that's seen no standing army in hundreds or thousands of years, I doubt even Palaptine can pull it off. In peacetime. Without any dire threat to play on peoples fears.
Unless he can convince the senate that the Trade Federation is stockpiling Death Stars, he needs that clone army.

Finally, as shown in in this thread, it looks like the people in Star Wars have a rather deplorable attitude toward droids, clones, and other possibly sentient beings regarded as "property".
Droids and clones were expendable cannon fodder. Nobody cared about the war until it came to Coruscant.
This is a great advantage for Palpatine, obviously because it takes away ammo from opposition to the war. In fact, even the most idealistic had no opposition to the war itself - only Palpatine's aquisition of more political powers.
When Anakin accuses Padme of sounding like a Seperatist, she vehemently denies it; she's concerned about the Chancellor gaining too much power. The Delegation of 2000 aren't morally opposed to the war, they're against themselves losing power to regional Moffs.

Unfortunately, attitudes on Earth are quite different. In fact, quite a few groups oppose the outright existence of a clone army, much less the use of them as cannon fodder.


No way on the clones, the reasons against them are too numerous, and they provide no real advantages.

1. Without Star Wars tech, they're no different from normal troops.
2. Without growth acceleration and some form of flash memory imprinting, the costs of their training make them a disadvantage compared to normal troops.
3. Unlike Palpatine, who required secrecy for his plan to succeed, we don't.
4. Try even having a clone army, and you'll be catching shit from all sides.

And the final nail in the coffin against clones: I want to see a battle droid factory.

[Coyote]

When the suicide bomber dies and takes the infidel droids with im to serve him in Paradise, we should put a bug in the prgramming that mixes up the verbals commands "peel my grapes" and "Caress my balls"....

"Roger-roger. Caressing ghrapes and peeling balls as ordered..."
"YEEEEAAAAHHHHH!!!!"

[Captain tycho]

Droids, easily. The resources for maintaining and building an army of droids is rather puny compared to an army of humans you have to feed, clothe, train, etc. Droid casualties would be just about meaningless. 50 droids get blown away in a car bomb? Make 50 more.

[wolveraptor]

The only problem I can see with droids is that they'd be stupider than we are.

[Zero]

The clones would be better at improvising, but still offer no practical improvement over normal soldiers. The droids will do what they're told, always. THat's a benefit.

[Ender]

we are already slowly moving towards a droid force, so I don't see too many problems there.

[Stuart Mackey]

The US wont be going for clones as Temuara Morrison dosent live there

[Darth Wong]

Say that the US and other developed powers get the technology to build clone armies a la the Grand Army of the Republic and Droid technology a la the Trade Federation. To avoid firepower issues like a battalion of clones leveling the North East I'm talking about weapons of today with the technology of Star Wars to build intelligent battledroids and advanced cloning technology.

Even with whatever technological plot devices you need for this scenario, the clones will still take years to grow and train, so they will be hideously expensive.

But lest you leap to the conclusion that this makes the droid army superior, consider the fact that a droid army can potentially have security holes or even programmer backdoors. In the case of the Separatists, the droid manufacturers were the government, so there was not much chance of a conflict. But even they were concerned enough about the possibility of a droid revolt or slicing problem that they designed a failsafe into all battledroids, allowing a global shutdown.

Translate this into real-life and imagine that some software company (eg- Microsoft) wrote the control logic for all of the battledroids. Imagine millions of identical battledroids, all of which have identical programming and therefore identical vulnerability to some kind of trojan or virus or backdoor. Now tell me that isn't disturbing as hell.

[Stuart Mackey]

Translate this into real-life and imagine that some software company (eg- Microsoft) wrote the control logic for all of the battledroids. Imagine millions of identical battledroids, all of which have identical programming and therefore identical vulnerability to some kind of trojan or virus or backdoor. Now tell me that isn't disturbing as hell.

"This Battledroid has performed an illegal function and will be shut down" etc etc.

[HemlockGrey]

Brings a whole new meaning to "Blue screen of death".

[Zero]

With droids, isn't there also a good chance of EMP? If the clones still require all the same crap as normal people, and the droids might all be susceptible to the same viruses and problems, wouldn't a normal army be more sufficient?

[Darth Wong]

With droids, isn't there also a good chance of EMP? If the clones still require all the same crap as normal people, and the droids might all be susceptible to the same viruses and problems, wouldn't a normal army be more sufficient?

Yes it would. Emperor Palpatine had very specific reasons to desire a clone army; it doesn't mean that a clone army is necessarily superior.

[RedImperator]

With droids, isn't there also a good chance of EMP? If the clones still require all the same crap as normal people, and the droids might all be susceptible to the same viruses and problems, wouldn't a normal army be more sufficient?

EMP is blown way out of proportion. The only way to generate an EMP worth a damn is with a nuclear detonation, and considering how easy it is to shield electronics against EMP, you're better off blowing up the droids with the device than trying to fry their brains.

[Pu-239]

Say that the US and other developed powers get the technology to build clone armies a la the Grand Army of the Republic and Droid technology a la the Trade Federation. To avoid firepower issues like a battalion of clones leveling the North East I'm talking about weapons of today with the technology of Star Wars to build intelligent battledroids and advanced cloning technology.

Even with whatever technological plot devices you need for this scenario, the clones will still take years to grow and train, so they will be hideously expensive.

But lest you leap to the conclusion that this makes the droid army superior, consider the fact that a droid army can potentially have security holes or even programmer backdoors. In the case of the Separatists, the droid manufacturers were the government, so there was not much chance of a conflict. But even they were concerned enough about the possibility of a droid revolt or slicing problem that they designed a failsafe into all battledroids, allowing a global shutdown.

Translate this into real-life and imagine that some software company (eg- Microsoft) wrote the control logic for all of the battledroids. Imagine millions of identical battledroids, all of which have identical programming and therefore identical vulnerability to some kind of trojan or virus or backdoor. Now tell me that isn't disturbing as hell.

Couldn't you just have the government produce the droid brains, and have competing companies produce the chassis? Doesn't the government currently handle the production of nuclear warheads?

[Lusankya]

The only problem I can see with droids is that they'd be stupider than we are.

I take that to be a good thing.

Droud armies could be good if you wanted to perform a pre-emptive strike against a completly unsuspecting enemy.

If the enemy didn't know that you had these battle droids, and if their weapons were inbuilt so that they weren't recognised as such, you could just ship them over and then activate them when they arrived in your enemy's major ports. Even if they got held up in customs...

"Activate battle droids"
"Roger Roger"
*droids attack the customs office*