Terrifying EU realisation re 'forms'

[Crown]

Nevertheless, in retrospect, it is perhaps preferable to avoid the term, as most people probably read it in its sociological sense rather than the ecclesiastical one. If this is how you read the term, then the wrong impression has been given; it is not intended to suggest that anything regarding their beliefs. Perhaps it is better to say that the Jedi Order is first and foremost a religious society and as a result would be naturally concerned with the metaphysical aspect of their martial arts. Does that clarify the intended meaning?

It does, and thank you. I apologise, but when I hear the term 'religion' I automatically associate it with a magical pixie fairy in the sky of which there is no proof of its existance - whereas, with the Force, it clearly exists - add the term 'cult' at the end, and then well ...

So yeah, sorry.

[Arthur_Tuxedo]

"You are using Bennetii's defense against me, eh?"
"I thought it fitting considering the rocky terrain."
"Then you must expect me to respond with Capafeio!"
"Naturally."
"Unless someone has studied Bernachelli...which I have!"

Prince's Bride! Where's my cookie?

[Cykeisme]

Generally speaking, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using technical terminology for something as potentially complicated as swordsmanship. In fact, this is desirable; the use of specific terminology allows individuals to convey large amounts of information in an easily understandable fashion by establishing a mutually intelligible framework. Is "I blocked his sword with mine and then attacked him" really preferable to "I parried and then riposted"? The same thing is done in many different fields; grammarians and linguists, for example, use terminology that may seem unintelligible to laymen but which actually convey a very large amount of information in a compact and precise format.

To wit, the use of specific terminology such as names for particular styles of swordsmanship – say, Makashi for Darth Tyranus's preferred fencing style, Ataro for Yoda's acrobatic style, and Djem So for Anakin Skywalker's "power" style – allows swordsmen who are unfamiliar with one another to communicate concepts to one another without needing to familiarize themselves with one another's particular idiom. Any swordsman that says he prefers to use Makashi because it makes cho mai or sun djem easier (for example) has clearly and unambiguously expressed a concrete idea. There is no use of flowery or otherwise imprecise language; any other swordsman familiar with this vocabulary would immediately know that the first swordsman prefers a style designed for fighting another swordsman, minimizing overall body movement and concentrating on precise cuts, parries, and ripostes, because it makes it easier to cut or otherwise damage his opponent's weapon or to cut off his opponent's weapon hand. Which way of saying this is faster?

There is nothing wrong with the concept of clearly delineated swordsmanship styles. They certainly are not static and hard and fast; the fact that someone favors one form does not mean that they are only able to use that one form. The novelization of Revenge of the Sith explains that Kenobi and Skywalker used multiple different styles fluidly during their duel with Tyranus; Kenobi used Ataro (Form IV) and Shii-Cho (Form I) before reverting to his preferred Soresu (Form III), while Skywalker used Ataro and Shien (not one of the numbered forms) before reverting to his preferred Djem So (Form V). This is perfectly reasonable; Tyranus is an experienced swordsman and duelist and would naturally tailor his tactics to the styles his opponents used. By altering their styles throughout the fight, the Jedi were able to throw Tyranus off balance and gain the upper hand. This is perfectly good tactics on their part, and there is nothing ridiculous about using subterfuge and deception to confuse and defeat an enemy.

Nor are the forms so simplistic as en garde stances. Mr. Robert Brown identified a number of en garde stances used in Kendo in the films, notably the middle guard (chudan no kamae), the low guard (gedan no kamae), the upper guard (jodan no kamae), the shoulder guard (hasso no kamae – the Revenge of the Sith Visual Dictionary identifies this as the Niman stance), and the hidden guard (waki no kamae). In The Phantom Menace, Qui-Gon Jinn uses the shoulder guard while Obi-Wan Kenobi uses a poorly-done middle guard, despite the fact that they are both said to prefer Ataro. In Attack of the Clones, Mace Windu frequently uses what appears to be the low guard, while both Tyranus and Skywalker use high guards. This despite the fact that both Jinn and Kenobi use Ataro in The Phantom Menace, while in Attack of the Clones Tyranus and Skywalker use Makashi and Djem So, respectively.

There is nothing wrong with a swordsman deriding another swordsman's choice of form. It is a question of professional pride and competitiveness; a fencer who uses a pistol grip may regard a French grip as simplistic, for example, or a professional marksman may develop an intense dislike for a certain make of firearm. A Kendo practitioner might develop a dismissive attitude toward other styles of martial art; many Orientalists are unduly contemptuous toward European fencing, for example. Similarly, Tyranus, an accomplished Makashi duelist, regarded Ataro as ridiculous and Djem So as inelegant and brutish. This is a matter of personal taste and arrogance; despite his contempt for Kenobi's and Skywalker's styles, Tyranus found to his dismay that these two "clowns" as he thought of them might actually defeat him (as indeed Skywalker did, despite his inelegance as a duelist).

As regards the objection to the concept of an "evil" style, one should remember that it is not the form itself that is dangerous. A form is simply a given set of footwork, attacks, parries, and ripostes that complement one another well enough to form a complete style of swordsmanship. Juyo is regarded as extremely difficult to master, for example, because it requires a high degree of mastery of all the other forms and is physically demanding; its counterpart Vaapad is regarded as "spiritually dangerous" because of the mindset it requires, not because of anything inherent in the physical maneuvers themselves. As Windu himself considered it, "immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness," requiring that one "allow himself to enjoy the fight," to "give himself over to the thrill of battle" and "the rush of winning." For this reason – i.e., a mental state that resembles the bloodlust of berserker fury or running amok in some respects – Vaapad is considered "the penumbra of the dark side." It is not that there is a "dark side" way of swinging a lightsaber, but rather a state of mind in which one swings that lightsaber.

This is admittedly more philosophical than mechanical. That is of course because the Jedi Order is first and foremost a religious cult, and would naturally have a preoccupation with the religious aspect of their particular branch of swordsmanship. The Jedi have a curious habit of forgetting that not everyone can sense the Force, nor does everyone share their particular view of light and dark and good and evil. Possibly because they cannot imagine not feeling the Force, they lack the ability to empathize with the perspective of more mundane individuals. The Jedi will therefore have different priorities and place more emphasis on some ideas than would seem justified to others. This must be remembered when regarding how Jedi react to certain things, especially where the dark side of the Force is concerned.

Publius, you're really cool

[Eleas]

Apoligies if this constitutes thread necromancy. I've dabbled in that foul art from time to time by accident, but I believe I have something to add to the discussion.

The idea of the Forms as presented by Publius is fine. But they make zero sense in the context of the movies themselves. They are said to define the way a Jedi fights, the sword techniques avaliable to said Jedi, the stances, usage of the Force, even the way they think in battle. This is not what we see. To put it bluntly, I must question whether the original authors of the Star Wars Insider article have ever actually held a sword in their hands.

To begin with, no two Jedi seem to fight exactly alike. The word 'forms' do not seem analogous to the forms (or kata) that we know - they seem to be different disciplines, but that's allright; a rose by any other name and all that. Be that as it may, we are informed of certain noteworthy practicioners of the different Forms, and a study of these should presumably give us insight into the common characteristics underlying the styles.

I cite the Insider article:

Their lightsaber combat is astonishing to watch, filled with elaborate moves in the center of which a Jedi may be all but a blur. Yoda, with his deep emphasis on the Force in all things, is a Form IV master. Form IV was also the chosen discipline of Qui-Gon Jinn and the early choice of his apprentice Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Now, to an astute observer of Qui-Gon's style, a few things are soon apparent:
* Qui-Gon is very technically proficient. His style is very clean, and we can thus expect it to approach the central tenets of his Form. In other words, his Form should look as close to the ideal of Form IV as possible. Indeed, it is said in the TPM novelisation that Master Dooku once considered Qui-Gon the best he had ever seen - presumably he had performed some technique beyond what Dooku had expected.
* His style is not even slightly similar to that of Yoda. In fact, the only major commonality I see is that they both use green lightsabers.
* Yoda's style is as we would have expected - yet his motions are based on and centered in his ability to move in that unnatural fashion. In order to successfully feint in his fashion, Qui-Gon would have to be as fast as Yoda, and would greatly benefit from being small like Yoda. Thus, the Form that Yoda uses would be of limited use to Qui-Gon, who is quite tall.
* Qui-Gon's fighting is predominantly based on straight lines. Yoda's swordwork is based on surrounding the enemy with spinning attacks.

There is probably more, but I am too much of a novice to presume to comment. Instead, we'll discuss the stupidity of Vapaad.

Vapaad is supposed to be the form that Bulq and Windu use. The problem here is that Windu has a rather crisp style - sort of a point-to-point philosophy where he determines what he needs to do and does that only. He sometimes tries more difficult techniques, but he never breaks out into excesses to my knowledge. According to the text, he's supposed to be the predominant master of Vapaad, which is supposed to be most difficult of all the Jedi fighting arts.

Whereas Bulq... well, not to put a too fine point on it, but he's an idiot. The kick he demonstrates in the arena is among the worst I have ever seen. With that single motion, he demonstrates that he would have been instantly killed in any truly challenging engagement. He leaves himself unbalanced, drops his guard, prolongs a technique unnecessarily, fails to deliver any real force, and is just generally and quite horribly sloppy.

In conclusion, his technique does not show any of the finesse, dedication or talent that could be expected of a student of this "most difficult" of combat arts. But that's okay. Apparently, you don't have to use the same sword techniques, stances, guards or footwork to be a student of the same Form! You don't have to define whether two swords or one are on the menu. And so, in the end, we are left wondering just what a sword Form is.

The question becomes even more baffling when we look at that horrible travesty known as Form VI. Apparently, the Form has a deep philosophical connotation, like the other Forms. That would be fine for any Martial Art, as long as the concept was both simple and useful in its own context. "Basic" is fine, as is "Intricate swordwork", "Defensive", "Offensive", and so on. Problematically, Form VI essentially promotes "Balance". Had it been intended as balance between offense and defense, it would have been all right, but it is apparently not so. No, the essence of Form VI is painfully clear:

This Form balances the emphases of other Forms with overall moderation, in keeping with the Jedi quest to achieve true harmony and justice without resorting to the rule of power.

In other words, it's "be careful". That's no way to fight; that's a recipy for disaster. It is, more to the point, no rational basis for a Martial Art. Which leads me to conclude that whatever the Forms are, they are not Martial Arts as we understand the term.

What are they, then? They come with a lot of philosophy, they include within themselves the martial applications of the Force, they teach how to use the sword but without any recognizable coherency or consistency, and are supposed to act as some sort of yardstick for how you approach violence.

I think the most likely conclusion is that they are some form of religiously influenced military program, and that Form VI is the easy course. Either that, or they are simply schools of thought, mini-religions or quasi-schools of philosophy within the Jedi Temple.

[Raptor 597]

Apoligies if this constitutes thread necromancy. I've dabbled in that foul art from time to time by accident, but I believe I have something to add to the discussion.

The idea of the Forms as presented by Publius is fine. But they make zero sense in the context of the movies themselves. They are said to define the way a Jedi fights, the sword techniques avaliable to said Jedi, the stances, usage of the Force, even the way they think in battle. This is not what we see. To put it bluntly, I must question whether the original authors of the Star Wars Insider article have ever actually held a sword in their hands.

To begin with, no two Jedi seem to fight exactly alike. The word 'forms' do not seem analogous to the forms (or kata) that we know - they seem to be different disciplines, but that's allright; a rose by any other name and all that. Be that as it may, we are informed of certain noteworthy practicioners of the different Forms, and a study of these should presumably give us insight into the common characteristics underlying the styles.

I cite the Insider article:

Their lightsaber combat is astonishing to watch, filled with elaborate moves in the center of which a Jedi may be all but a blur. Yoda, with his deep emphasis on the Force in all things, is a Form IV master. Form IV was also the chosen discipline of Qui-Gon Jinn and the early choice of his apprentice Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Now, to an astute observer of Qui-Gon's style, a few things are soon apparent:
* Qui-Gon is very technically proficient. His style is very clean, and we can thus expect it to approach the central tenets of his Form. In other words, his Form should look as close to the ideal of Form IV as possible. Indeed, it is said in the TPM novelisation that Master Dooku once considered Qui-Gon the best he had ever seen - presumably he had performed some technique beyond what Dooku had expected.
* His style is not even slightly similar to that of Yoda. In fact, the only major commonality I see is that they both use green lightsabers.
* Yoda's style is as we would have expected - yet his motions are based on and centered in his ability to move in that unnatural fashion. In order to successfully feint in his fashion, Qui-Gon would have to be as fast as Yoda, and would greatly benefit from being small like Yoda. Thus, the Form that Yoda uses would be of limited use to Qui-Gon, who is quite tall.
* Qui-Gon's fighting is predominantly based on straight lines. Yoda's swordwork is based on surrounding the enemy with spinning attacks.

There is probably more, but I am too much of a novice to presume to comment. Instead, we'll discuss the stupidity of Vapaad.

Vapaad is supposed to be the form that Bulq and Windu use. The problem here is that Windu has a rather crisp style - sort of a point-to-point philosophy where he determines what he needs to do and does that only. He sometimes tries more difficult techniques, but he never breaks out into excesses to my knowledge. According to the text, he's supposed to be the predominant master of Vapaad, which is supposed to be most difficult of all the Jedi fighting arts.

Whereas Bulq... well, not to put a too fine point on it, but he's an idiot. The kick he demonstrates in the arena is among the worst I have ever seen. With that single motion, he demonstrates that he would have been instantly killed in any truly challenging engagement. He leaves himself unbalanced, drops his guard, prolongs a technique unnecessarily, fails to deliver any real force, and is just generally and quite horribly sloppy.

In conclusion, his technique does not show any of the finesse, dedication or talent that could be expected of a student of this "most difficult" of combat arts. But that's okay. Apparently, you don't have to use the same sword techniques, stances, guards or footwork to be a student of the same Form! You don't have to define whether two swords or one are on the menu. And so, in the end, we are left wondering just what a sword Form is.

The question becomes even more baffling when we look at that horrible travesty known as Form VI. Apparently, the Form has a deep philosophical connotation, like the other Forms. That would be fine for any Martial Art, as long as the concept was both simple and useful in its own context. "Basic" is fine, as is "Intricate swordwork", "Defensive", "Offensive", and so on. Problematically, Form VI essentially promotes "Balance". Had it been intended as balance between offense and defense, it would have been all right, but it is apparently not so. No, the essence of Form VI is painfully clear:

This Form balances the emphases of other Forms with overall moderation, in keeping with the Jedi quest to achieve true harmony and justice without resorting to the rule of power.

In other words, it's "be careful". That's no way to fight; that's a recipy for disaster. It is, more to the point, no rational basis for a Martial Art. Which leads me to conclude that whatever the Forms are, they are not Martial Arts as we understand the term.

What are they, then? They come with a lot of philosophy, they include within themselves the martial applications of the Force, they teach how to use the sword but without any recognizable coherency or consistency, and are supposed to act as some sort of yardstick for how you approach violence.

I think the most likely conclusion is that they are some form of religiously influenced military program, and that Form VI is the easy course. Either that, or they are simply schools of thought, mini-religions or quasi-schools of philosophy within the Jedi Temple.

Eleas, you draw some interesting conclusions, and I agree mostly with what you say. Yoda and Qui-Gon use Form IV, but you point out they fight differently. I have an analogy that could shed light, in chess there are certain schools, such as Nimzowitsch's system, positional over tactical, tactical over positional, classical, the famous hypermodern by Reti, and prophylaxis which means to guard or prevent beforehand.

The system of prophylaxis was refined to a science by Tigran Petrosian, an Armenian, the 10th world champion of chess. He played quiet and slowly overwhelming moves which would crush is opponent under the sheer weight of quality play. Karpov, the 13th world champion also adopted prophylaxis as the cornerstone of his game. However, he played different openings than Petrosian, far more positional letting the tactics seep in later which also complicates the game, something Petrosian was not fond of unless it was just complications for his opponents. The results were the same though, the opponent was limited in his play by the theoretical goal of prophylaxis, but the methods were some what different.

These two aforementioned players preferred blocking the opponent, but lets look at three other world champions, Vasily Symslov, Bobby Fischer, and Garry Kasparov. The first was said to play a unique form of chess, something alien, but all three played in a universal manner: crush the opponent under complications no mater the risks. Symslov played for advantages and improved his position throughout the game, he would not reject an attack, but he preferred to lung in and finish the adversary on his ground of choosing, and Symslov's opponents could not withstand the pressure. Bobby Fischer preferred sound openings and applied his supernatural skills of calculations to crush the opponent, not just crush him, break his mental spirit to the core and feed off of it. His opponents could not withstand the fury of the complications and withered under fire. Kasparov at many times over his tweny year championship played like Fischer, crush the opponent as soon as possible under complications, but he made use of the psychological side of the game maybe greater than anyone ever, taking his opponents into aras of the game they could not hold, complicate, complicate, and crush!

As you see itis perfectly possible to be of the same school or form and fight differently, the end result must be the same, that is to say the line of the thinking is there, yoda and Qui-Gon used the best tactics to reach the theoretical goals of Form IV. Form VI you say appears to be useless, but it might not be the case. It could benefit those who are not front line soldiers of the Jedi. Though I agree as a permanent system it seems somewhat useless, something else is required for success. It seems the forms are more about the end goal though the means involved may costitute various methods which would explain why the fight differently on screen.

[HemlockGrey]

If you're in a superior position and you want to taunt a foe who cannot kill you without fucking himself over, the best way is get him angry and stupid. Telling him that he's using an inferior style mocks everything about him and will allow the idiot make a mistake.

How appropriate. You fight like a cow!

[Isolder74]

If you're in a superior position and you want to taunt a foe who cannot kill you without fucking himself over, the best way is get him angry and stupid. Telling him that he's using an inferior style mocks everything about him and will allow the idiot make a mistake.

How appropriate. You fight like a cow!

On the sea we do things a little differently! All your threats and insults have to ryhme!

Enough Guybrush!

[Stuart Mackey]

snip

As you see itis perfectly possible to be of the same school or form and fight differently, the end result must be the same, that is to say the line of the thinking is there, yoda and Qui-Gon used the best tactics to reach the theoretical goals of Form IV. Form VI you say appears to be useless, but it might not be the case. It could benefit those who are not front line soldiers of the Jedi. Though I agree as a permanent system it seems somewhat useless, something else is required for success. It seems the forms are more about the end goal though the means involved may costitute various methods which would explain why the fight differently on screen.

Interesting. I was taught that what one does in combat depends on who you are fighting, your surrounds, your opponents abilities/size/speed etc and your own abilities {factor in levels of intoxication as well) As such, I was never taught any forms. At. All. I was taught moves, and instructed to use them as I saw fit.
The moves I was taught were moves that are developed and tested in relistic senarios, you use what works and discard that which does not.
As such, I find these Jedi sword forms to be laughable, but I would suspect that in combat they use what works..or die.

[Raptor 597]

snip

As you see itis perfectly possible to be of the same school or form and fight differently, the end result must be the same, that is to say the line of the thinking is there, yoda and Qui-Gon used the best tactics to reach the theoretical goals of Form IV. Form VI you say appears to be useless, but it might not be the case. It could benefit those who are not front line soldiers of the Jedi. Though I agree as a permanent system it seems somewhat useless, something else is required for success. It seems the forms are more about the end goal though the means involved may costitute various methods which would explain why the fight differently on screen.

Interesting. I was taught that what one does in combat depends on who you are fighting, your surrounds, your opponents abilities/size/speed etc and your own abilities {factor in levels of intoxication as well) As such, I was never taught any forms. At. All. I was taught moves, and instructed to use them as I saw fit.
The moves I was taught were moves that are developed and tested in relistic senarios, you use what works and discard that which does not.
As such, I find these Jedi sword forms to be laughable, but I would suspect that in combat they use what works..or die.

Yeah, I agree. The same could fit in the analogy those conernings move that fit and such since move order is as important to a grandmaster as it is to a martial artist. Though I apologize for not clarifyiny what I mean by method, it meant the sum and total of all tangibles and how best they use them in relation to their fighting methods. In reality I think the only way the form system could work is to aim for an ideal which is probably too intangible when in a fight for survival.

[Stuart Mackey]

snip In reality I think the only way the form system could work is to aim for an ideal which is probably too intangible when in a fight for survival.

A completly theoretical situation?

[Kurgan]

I'm no martial artist, so maybe this is full of crap, but even if the forms were "useless" for fighting, couldn't they still be utilized for some kind of exercise, Tai Chi-esque thing?

You know, something the Jedi can do with their spare time besides meditate, and be all graceful and stuff with their sabers? In real life I think some people do this with their own swords or whatever and it's like exercise and may even have some spiritual aspects to it.

And that might help explain the "dark side skirting" form. Perhaps it pumps you up and gets the blood flowing (like an exercise before battle to get you psyched) but if overdone could lead to anger, hate, etc.

Just a thought... feel free to ignore.

[Stuart Mackey]

I'm no martial artist, so maybe this is full of crap, but even if the forms were "useless" for fighting, couldn't they still be utilized for some kind of exercise, Tai Chi-esque thing?

You know, something the Jedi can do with their spare time besides meditate, and be all graceful and stuff with their sabers? In real life I think some people do this with their own swords or whatever and it's like exercise and may even have some spiritual aspects to it.

And that might help explain the "dark side skirting" form. Perhaps it pumps you up and gets the blood flowing (like an exercise before battle to get you psyched) but if overdone could lead to anger, hate, etc.

Just a thought... feel free to ignore.

But why would you? if you are in a war, why not practice something practical? That would also keep you fit. Even in peacetime, why bother?
Besides why run the risk of screwing with your training by doing something that use's the same weapond but its methods are ineffective?

[Keevan_Colton]

It's quite simple, observable evidence shows that the forms are not literal forms as they cannot be reconciled into particular fighting styles...those who practice a particular 'form' vary wildly in stance, style, movement and also stature...all key aspects of any real form, and also of which form to select relative to others.

That leaves only that they are schools of philosophical thought, with NO relation to movements. This means that short of mind reading or checking their CV to see what they put down as "favourite form" of telling who is using which form.

It's fucking daft. I dont object to the concpet of forms, I do object completely to their execution...if you're going to have forms, have forms...if you're not, dont pretend you do have them.

[Zac Naloen]

Is it specified that these are specifically lightsaber forms anywhere?


could these, rather be Force forms?

How can a lightsaber form be close to the darkside, for example

On the otherhand using the force in a certain matter whilst fighting could be.

so mace uses the force aggressively in a battle
Obi-wan uses the force to increase his defense abilities etc.

[nightmare]

Is it specified that these are specifically lightsaber forms anywhere?

could these, rather be Force forms?

How can a lightsaber form be close to the darkside, for example

On the otherhand using the force in a certain matter whilst fighting could be.

so mace uses the force aggressively in a battle
Obi-wan uses the force to increase his defense abilities etc.

The Insider article says that Vapaad is close to the dark side, more aggressive. KOTOR2 has, IIRC, 4 forms that are strictly "force use". I don't see the problem really. Lightsaber skills were always said to be as much a force exercise as fighting, and sword styles are nothing new. I can see the connection with Japanese kendo philosophy rather clearly.

The way I see it, a form is a lightsaber fighting style, which is also connected with one's force use. It is as much an exercise in meditation or Kata as actual fighting. Hence, a style will reflect and be reflected upon, the user, in both swinging the weapon and their use of the force, as well as their personalities, experience and development. It's all intertwined. Just because two people use the same form doesn't mean they have to be more than superficially similar. Not only can you mix and match between the schools to form your individual style, or switch between the styles you know, each individual is going to implement it differently, even differing between situations, emotions, experience, and terrain.

[Zac Naloen]

The Insider article says that Vapaad is close to the dark side, more aggressive.

My point was, how can the way you swing a lightsaber specifically lead to the darkside.

I mean you can swing a lightsaber aggressively (you'd never win a fight otherwise) but that isn't a necessarily a dark side act on its own, unless you are using the force the augment the strike with more power, or to distract the enemy or to use a simultaneous TK attack.
The force HAS to be incorporated into the forms somehow, or else the forms simply don't make sense as pure lightsaber styles, and its how you implement the force that dictates your form.

[Keevan_Colton]

It's all intertwined. Just because two people use the same form doesn't mean they have to be more than superficially similar.

Problem is, they arent even that.

[Molyneux]

The Insider article says that Vapaad is close to the dark side, more aggressive.

My point was, how can the way you swing a lightsaber specifically lead to the darkside.

I mean you can swing a lightsaber aggressively (you'd never win a fight otherwise) but that isn't a necessarily a dark side act on its own, unless you are using the force the augment the strike with more power, or to distract the enemy or to use a simultaneous TK attack.
The force HAS to be incorporated into the forms somehow, or else the forms simply don't make sense as pure lightsaber styles, and its how you implement the force that dictates your form.

You can swing aggressively without channeling your 'darker' emotions.

Vaapad, unless I'm mistaken, entails using your anger to an extent in order to attack with more power - a sign of the first step towards the Dark Side.

[nightmare]

It's all intertwined. Just because two people use the same form doesn't mean they have to be more than superficially similar.

Problem is, they arent even that.

If two people use the same form, in the same situation, with similar experience, and similar circumstances, and they aren't mixing in any personal styles, mix-matching, etc, as it has been stated that they do, then they should be more similar than what we see. I give you that much. I don't believe that we we ever see those conditions however.

[Keevan_Colton]

It's all intertwined. Just because two people use the same form doesn't mean they have to be more than superficially similar.

Problem is, they arent even that.

If two people use the same form, in the same situation, with similar experience, and similar circumstances, and they aren't mixing in any personal styles, mix-matching, etc, as it has been stated that they do, then they should be more similar than what we see. I give you that much. I don't believe that we we ever see those conditions however.

Even in the real world, I can spot if someone has studied kendo, even if they're fighting in a more florentine style, because real forms actually influence movements...you pick it up, it's almost like an accent....the fact is that the same form is used by Qui-Gon and Yoda is really all the death knell needed for the notion of them having anything at all to do with movements while wielding a lightsabre.

[nightmare]

Even in the real world, I can spot if someone has studied kendo, even if they're fighting in a more florentine style, because real forms actually influence movements...you pick it up, it's almost like an accent....the fact is that the same form is used by Qui-Gon and Yoda is really all the death knell needed for the notion of them having anything at all to do with movements while wielding a lightsabre.

It's a good point, but as you mentioned earlier I believe?, and as I mentioned before, actual fighting as only so much of a form. Basically, I nail it down to this - either you consider all about forms bull, or you go for that we can't really understand what's going on, since we're not forcies. Part of it, yes. How much? It probably varies how much of a form is concentrated on moves, and even then it's up to the user. I recall Darth Maul having incorporated Echani styles in his fighting for example.

For an extrinsic view, we can see that some of the actors have some experience with martial arts, or at least portraying them onscreen. There are also notable similarities, like Vader's and Qui-Gon's hasso stances. Yet they show very different moves as well.

[Publius]

The Cestus Deception mentions that Form I has "unarmed techniques," which more or less definitively indicates that Forms consist of more than swordsmanship. It is possible that the Forms are more like states of mind and families of disciplines; this might account for Jinn's and Yoda's styles being radically different despite both being said to be masters of Ataro. Otherwise, it may be that the differences in style are accounted for by physical demands (as Eleast points out, it is not really practical for Jinn to use the same style as Yoda, considering the very substantial physiological differences between them).

Alternatively, the claim that they both use the same style could be simply incorrect.

[Isolder74]

Well it could be like

Mantis, Tiger, Monkey, Bear, ect.

They sound similar

[Cykeisme]

IMO, you know what the biggest fumble was, when those folks attempted to categorize lightsaber styles?

Trying to put Yoda in a category with the humanoid (or at least somewhat humanoid) majority. That just won't work.

[Mobiboros]

Actually, it is very possible that Qui-Gon and Yoda use similar forms but apply them differently. A real life example:
I am 6ft tall. I have studied Italian Rapier for a few years now.
My friend is 4'11" tall. She's been studying roughly as long as I have of the same form, Italian.

If you were to watch us fight you'd really only see similarity in that we are both using a rapier. We move different, we attack and defend different. We have to, because of the size difference. She needs to be able to close the distance much more rapidly than I do.

Any fighting form needs to be adapted to the person using it. So while you can readily tell we are fencing, and you might guess we were both using some form of Southern European style you'd not likely guess we were both using an italian form.

Same with Yoda and Qui-Gon. Yoda /has/ to do what he does. He completely lacks reach. He needs to be adapt his form to get in quickly as possible.

Also, do we know they always stick in just one form or do th Jedi learn multiple forms and drawn a pesonal style from all the forms they know? Having learned some Spanish and French fencing I can tell you that having extra 'tricks' in your bag can make the difference between winning and losing.