501st Legion vs. Romulans from Unification

[Jadeite]

At 60 miles apart, both sides aren't even in the city, they're outside of the county.

Anyway, provided the 501st don't surrender or flee, and keep their cool, and provided they get into the city first, they could easily create some nice strongpoints in downtown. Most of the skyscrapers connect to each other, and the convention center and RCA dome connects to Circle Center Mall, which has some potentially great killzones and, which sprawls through the city. 501st members could easily garrison the convention center, mall, and some of the skyscrapers and have great fields of fire onto the streets, provided they take the defensive.

For example, the big glass dome thing in the upper left, that thing sits over an intersection of two major roads that lead through the city, and connects at least two buildings, I'm not sure.



Sure, lack of training and familiarity with their weapons is going to be a very negative thing, but if they can keep their cool and not break and run, they could probably give the Romulans a bloody nose in a defensive action.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

And how exactly does the less fit side with heavier equipment get into the city first?

[Ender]

-mutters- gents, some of them do have military training. not saying they all do or its enough to change the tide.

but the stormies is a hobby, and some of these guys are military or former military.

... are you a member?

And what percentage would you estimate of them are former military? And for these purposes, lets exclude navy and air force as this will be infantry combat (I expect those walkers and TIEs to hit the dirt inside 10 minutes)

[Macunaima]

Hum, interesting points has been posted here on the topic. I've tried to come with a scenario where at least some sort of balance between each side could be achieved, having one side well armed and with some knowledge of what all that is about, but with no previous training, against another side poorly armed in contrast, but with formal training. However, as discussed here on the topic, seems that even thought I took training in consideration, I've overlooked too much the real importance of it, and I made no mention at all in the initial scenario about the fitness and willing to fight of some of the fans (or lack thereof, actually) also something important. It is also valid to mention that the leadership question could be a factor as well: who would take the responsibilities of command? The guys who manage the 501st as a fan organization, the members who most know Wars/Trek elements, or the members who have some military background? I believe the military guys should take the lead, of course, but this could create some initial confusion that would take some time to get it right. As a result, perhaps the scenario didn't come as balanced as I hoped to be, shifting the chances too much in favors of the Romulans.

I still believe that given some time to the fans become familiarized with the basic of the Imperial equipment, and with some boot camp and also a valid and good reason to desire to fight, then the fan-based 501st could overcome the Romulans. However, for this to be valid, perhaps it would mean that the initial scenario is modified, and as I don't know if the rules of the board allow for major changes/additions on the basic scenario to be made after the topic has been posted and the discussion and voting is underway (and my guess is that this can't be done), so I will not ask for those points I just made to be necessarily taken in consideration.

[Lord of the Farce]

Actually, what DO we know about the training, tactical, and strategical competence of the Romulans' invasion forces? If it's no better than the (apparently) typical Federation practice of sending starship crew to fight as frontline soldiers, or the literally-can't-hit-the-broadside-of-barn accuracy of Nemesis, why should we automatically assume that the Romulans would have the advantage in these aspects?

Besides, it won't strictly be military/ex-military members of the 501st who could be a serious danger to the Romulans thanks to training. I would be surprised if there isn't a fair number of the 501st who are current or ex- members of law enforcement. You could probably even throw in those who are at least competent with real firearms to force the Romulans to keep their heads down.

Besides, how much does formal training of unknown quality help you against weapons that could easily take down more than a dozen of your side per person before you even get within firing range? Even if only 5% of the 501st has some form of military or law enforcement training -assuming that the 501st has the advantage of setting up defensive position - if each of these people can actually take down ten or more Romulans before they get into firing range (quite possibly, if you consider what a few well placed E-Web and heavy blaster rifles could do), that leaves less than 500 Romulans left to shoot back. If we make that to be at least 10% of the 501st has had at the very least some weapons (especially with rifles) training, then there's a much better margin of error.

If nothing else, the TIEs, AT-ST, AT-AT, Repulsortanks, Artillery vehicles, etc. could at least be used as decent cover.

And how exactly does the less fit side with heavier equipment get into the city first?

Motor vehicles? And a thunder storm passing nearby (along with a few transformers here and there) blocking transporters?

[Kamakazie Sith]

And how exactly does the less fit side with heavier equipment get into the city first?

Motor vehicles? And a thunder storm passing nearby (along with a few transformers here and there) blocking transporters?

Actually, the transformers would at most block a transporter lock. They should still be able to beam down.

[Noble Ire]

I change my vote to MAD.

When the hundred odd Vader/ Palpatine wannabies are suddenly endowed with the dark force powers of two of the most powerful force-users ever, they swiftly go insane and begin to destroy everything in sight. The city, and everything in it (501st and Romulans included), is immolated in a crucible of unstoppable force power.

[NecronLord]

but any personal armor would be real, not just costumes.

Worse than useless. The advanced optics of Stormtrooper gear make it impossible for anyone without extensive training to use the helmet, and many people will find regulation stormtrooper gear impossible to fit into.

And, well, woe betide anyone in a Vader costume.

[Noble Ire]

Worse than useless. The advanced optics of Stormtrooper gear make it impossible for anyone without extensive training to use the helmet, and many people will find regulation stormtrooper gear impossible to fit into.

Admittedly they didnt function as well as they could have in them, but Han and Luke were able to fit into the armor, and at least have partial visiblity


......wait, this is a fat joke, isnt it?

[NecronLord]

Admittedly they didnt function as well as they could have in them, but Han and Luke were able to fit into the armor, and at least have partial visiblity

Han being an ex member of the Imperial Military establishment, and trained to use SW combat sensors, and Luke being a force sensative who has recently been inducted into fighting while blindfolded.

......wait, this is a fat joke, isnt it?

No. Stormtrooper armour is intended for people over a regulation height, with a regulation body shape.

Even a regulation buzz cut.

[Noble Ire]

No. Stormtrooper armour is intended for people over a regulation height, with a regulation body shape.

Han was an officer, there's no reason to believe he had the exactly appropriate build. Same with Luke, IE "Your a little short for a stormtrooper" comment.

[NecronLord]

And both of them were exceedingly glad to be rid of it, remember?

Now, imagine some of the more overweight 501st members trying to get into it.

[Jadeite]

This thread makes me wish there was a multiplayer deathmatch map of downtown Indy.

Anyway, there's nothing preventing the 501st from ditching their helmets if they get in the way, or using the abandoned cars and busses left in the streets to get around.

[NecronLord]

There goes the serious advantage of the armour then.

And we're still pretending a bunch of nerds will rapidly become an efficient fighting force. Pfft.

[Ender]

Besides, it won't strictly be military/ex-military members of the 501st who could be a serious danger to the Romulans thanks to training. I would be surprised if there isn't a fair number of the 501st who are current or ex- members of law enforcement. You could probably even throw in those who are at least competent with real firearms to force the Romulans to keep their heads down.

The advantage of military training isn't about "how to use firearms". Its stuff like cohesive teamwork, basic assault tactics, and pushing yourself beyond your normal limits. You don't get that simply by virtue of having a NRA card, and I don't expect that police traing, except maybe SWAT, deals heavily with that.

Frankly, I expect to see a lot of these kids flipping to full auto and running at the Romulans screaming.

[Sharpshooter]

Worse than useless. The advanced optics of Stormtrooper gear make it impossible for anyone without extensive training to use the helmet, and many people will find regulation stormtrooper gear impossible to fit into.

And, well, woe betide anyone in a Vader costume.

Nitpick: if all of the costumes and equipment suddenly became real and fully-functional, wouldn't that the costumes were designed to fit their builds mean the armor would just as well?

[Asdeed]

Actually, what DO we know about the training, tactical, and strategical competence of the Romulans' invasion forces? If it's no better than the (apparently) typical Federation practice of sending starship crew to fight as frontline soldiers, or the literally-can't-hit-the-broadside-of-barn accuracy of Nemesis, why should we automatically assume that the Romulans would have the advantage in these aspects?

Well, we have no visuals on the competence of Romulan ground troops, but we do have some dialogue from DS9 'the Reckoning'. The Romulans retook Bolarus after Star Fleet repeatedly failed to do so (shocking eh?). Does that tell us much about their forces, heck no. But we do know they took a fortified planet away from a horde of berserker chameleons. Considering the major known differences between the Jem'Hadar and the 501st is the Jemmies ability to turn invisible, i'd say this is a point for the Romulans.

Besides, it won't strictly be military/ex-military members of the 501st who could be a serious danger to the Romulans thanks to training. I would be surprised if there isn't a fair number of the 501st who are current or ex- members of law enforcement. You could probably even throw in those who are at least competent with real firearms to force the Romulans to keep their heads down.

Maybe, but the Romulans have tricorders and a cloaked Warbird in orbit. Tricorders means intel, Warbird means artillery and maneauverability (transporters). Every time you pin them down you just expose more of your men.

Besides, how much does formal training of unknown quality help you against weapons that could easily take down more than a dozen of your side per person before you even get within firing range? Even if only 5% of the 501st has some form of military or law enforcement training -assuming that the 501st has the advantage of setting up defensive position - if each of these people can actually take down ten or more Romulans before they get into firing range (quite possibly, if you consider what a few well placed E-Web and heavy blaster rifles could do), that leaves less than 500 Romulans left to shoot back. If we make that to be at least 10% of the 501st has had at the very least some weapons (especially with rifles) training, then there's a much better margin of error.

But the 501st doesn't get to start on the defensive, so it's kinda moot.

If nothing else, the TIEs, AT-ST, AT-AT, Repulsortanks, Artillery vehicles, etc. could at least be used as decent cover.

Not to mention the confusion all those vehicles just sittin there would cause, poor Romulans might convince themselves there's an insidious plan at work and run away! Well, we can dream

[Trooper TK12746]

As long as a one AT-AT is crewed by the 501st, then the 501st would be invincible, Nothing the Rommies have can take down an AT-AT, or an AT-ST for that matter. I imagine that firing the AT-AT's weapons wouldn't be too hard. You don't even need to move it, just build a defensive position around it. And AT-STs probably have similer controls to Tanks and fighter craft. Any pilots or tankers could probably learn to drive them before all of them are totaled. An AT-AT would be really hard to destroy, even by the crew. And none of these guys are idiots, so they would know that thermal detonators are thrown and how to activate them etc. Not to mention mortars and hovertanks. Hovertanks work just like real tanks, or maybe even cars. And don't forget, the average Imperial unit has some war-droids and regular droids, they would know how to do their job. And what about E-webs? Hijack some pickups and stick an E-Web on the back. Then you have a mobile assault force. I have thought this up in less than a minute. And these are SW fanatics. They would never ever lose to an ST army. THey would never live it down. THe humiliation would be terrible. And the Darkside users just have to get angry, and they would become weapons of mass destruction. Anakin and Luke both unconsouscly channeled the force with no experiance, so these guys probably could too. ANd the Rommies might become demoralized by the firepower of the ggroup they are facing. And Stormie helmets are simple to use for basic tasks like vision and protection from shrapnel. ITs the extra more advanced features that are hard to use. And running at the Rommies with blasters on full auto would probably wipe them out in no time. Mortars would be easy to use, although coordinating fire would be a challenge, perhaps impossible, but with gas, you don't need precise hits. And we know how TIEs work. THey work almost exactly like real fighter planes. Any certified pilots could do some damage with them. Shoulder mounted torp launchers aren't hard to figure out either. Even without military training, a bunch of guys with blasters, imp armor, and heavy weapons charging straight into enemy fire could wipe out the Rommies. Once sided massacre in favor of the 501st.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Hell, how many of the 501st would think that this was some sort of joke until it was too late? I mean, they'd all just think, "Hey, dude, Romulans aren't real, they're from Star Trek. This is probably just a big experiment or something or maybe the gov's testing new weapons and making them look like Star Wars stuff..." until they see one of their friends get fucking turned into thin air by Romulan Commandos which just beamed out of the sky behind them? Or giant green laser things vapourising buildings in which they're huddled?

Fuck, I see at least half of the 501st spending their time whimpering and crying for their mommies when the Romulans start vapourising people and the Warbird orbitally bombards them. These aren't soldiers by any means. They're just guys who get to see their friends get blown up playing with thermal detonators, see their friends vapourised by pointy-eared aliens appearing out of thin air and see their friends hit by photon torpedoes from orbit.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Warbird firing barrages of disruptor fire and photon torpedoes>>> AT-AT which is crewed by inexperienced nerds.

[Trooper TK12746]

They already know what is going on. THat was specified earlier. And photon torps are omnidirectional, they would vaporize the Rommies too. They are similer in yield to nuclear weapons. Doesn't 60 miles seem a bit much? It would take a long time for the two sides to even find each other. How much food and water do they have?

[Trooper TK12746]

501st already knows how to counter transporters, heck, they could probably block transporters by accident. Are orbital bombardments even allowed in this scenario? And the TIEs could take out the warbird no problem. You would only need maybe two of them.

[Lord Revan]

501st already knows how to counter transporters, heck, they could probably block transporters by accident. Are orbital bombardments even allowed in this scenario? And the TIEs could take out the warbird no problem. You would only need maybe two of them.

this nerd we're talking about not the true "Vader's fist" the chances of them getting in range of Warbird are almost nil (since I dout any of them have expreriance on how to pilot a SW craft)

[Trooper TK12746]

It has been said in various books what the TIE controls are. They are almost exactly the same as prop plane controls. Any pilots in the group could use them easily.

[Lord Revan]

It has been said in various books what the TIE controls are. They are almost exactly the same as prop plane controls. Any pilots in the group could use them easily.

a TIE won't handle the same way a prop plane would. to able to use the control and to able control the craft are not the same thing.