What is reasonable with property?

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

I am confused on the issue of property. I was talking with a friend today who is totally against ordinences that limit property rights. I can't see how property rights are absolute.

He's trying to tell me that because you own something, you can do anything you want to your property without actually harming another human/citizen.

So I said: you move to a nice neighborhood, and then build an organic compostpile, 10 broken-down sheds, don't mow your grass for a year etc is that ok?

He said fine. But how is that reasonable? WOuldn't that hurt others by lowering property values? Who the hell wants to live next to someone or near somewith who's house is pink with yellow polkadots, has a compost pile, cars in the yard, and unkempt grass.

You are a fascist, apparently, if you think people shouldn't be able to do anything they want simply because they own it.

[Molyneux]

I am confused on the issue of property. I was talking with a friend today who is totally against ordinences that limit property rights. I can't see how property rights are absolute.

He's trying to tell me that because you own something, you can do anything you want to your property without actually harming another human/citizen.

So I said: you move to a nice neighborhood, and then build an organic compostpile, 10 broken-down sheds, don't mow your grass for a year etc is that ok?

He said fine. But how is that reasonable? WOuldn't that hurt others by lowering property values? Who the hell wants to live next to someone or near somewith who's house is pink with yellow polkadots, has a compost pile, cars in the yard, and unkempt grass.

You are a fascist, apparently, if you think people shouldn't be able to do anything they want simply because they own it.

He's working off of Locke's definition of property, I think...s'a good place to start, even if a bit simplistic to apply to the real world.

And what's wrong with havin' a compost heap?? It's good for th'plants!

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

They smell horrible. THere's a compost pile in my neighborhood, and people are trying to get rid of it. Every day in the summer when the wind blows, we get this rancid cheese smell. It makes it unbearable to go out of the house.

[StimNeuro]

I am confused on the issue of property. I was talking with a friend today who is totally against ordinences that limit property rights. I can't see how property rights are absolute.

He's trying to tell me that because you own something, you can do anything you want to your property without actually harming another human/citizen.

So I said: you move to a nice neighborhood, and then build an organic compostpile, 10 broken-down sheds, don't mow your grass for a year etc is that ok?

He said fine. But how is that reasonable? WOuldn't that hurt others by lowering property values? Who the hell wants to live next to someone or near somewith who's house is pink with yellow polkadots, has a compost pile, cars in the yard, and unkempt grass.

You are a fascist, apparently, if you think people shouldn't be able to do anything they want simply because they own it.

Well, the organic compost pile could be considered harming others if the stench becomes too bad, I guess. The real question is, is this a subdivision-type neighborhood? When you move into a subdivision, you have to obey their rules, such as keeping your exterior nice. If this house is sitting on private land that just happens to be near other houses... sure, let him do anything he wants with it, provided he stays within the standard ordinances of the city/county e lives in.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

That's the problem. He says he doesn't have to obey ordinences beacause that's putting the community above the individual! Ordinences cause him to have to forgo his property rights

[Gil Hamilton]

It becomes the neighbors business if what the person is doing is lowering their property value. Him having Stink Mountain in his back yard can do that, I believe.

[Imperial Overlord]

Property isn't an absolute right. Under current law, I can't just mine a place and let poisonous tailing wreck nearby land. I can't just fell a tree in the City of Vancouver, because if I do it wrong it can fall in my neighbor's yard and cause damage or injury. Your friend needs to grow the fuck up.

[Chmee]

This sounds suspiciously fundamentalist .... does he think he derives these inalienable and absolute property rights from a deity?

I assume he doesn't have any water, sewer or power connected to the property, obviously he's trying to avoid entanglement with the Evil State ....

[salm]

Ask him if it´s ok to explode a bomb in a class room if ýou are the owner of the bomb.

[Zero]

Why the hell is it bad to put the community before the individual? Aren't more individuals served by doing what's best for the community?

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

Oh, he agrees that you cannot physically hurt others by using your property, but for some reason he won't recognize damage outside of physical. Apparently, you can fuck up your land and thus devalue everyone's property, but you aren't hurting them. Making those around you miserable or devaluing shit is perfectly A-Ok

He called me Communitarian =D I don't why that's bad in this case. It's as if it were used as an insult.

[Quadlok]

You know, a properly maintained and constructed compost pile really doesn't stink that much.

Your friend is a moron, limits must be placed on the individual for society to be possible. Now, some restrictions of property rights, such as the 'keep the lawn at x length and green, the house a drab color, and if you even think about putting up a clothes line or a tool shed, you can go to hell' type of covenants most subdivisions have is absurd, but not being able to open up a pig farm or construct a five hundred foot tower in the middle of a residential block is perfectly justified.

[salm]

If you can´t get him to accept that non-physical damage is bad, too at least explain to him that stinking compost heaps are in fact physical damage.

[salm]

You know, a properly maintained and constructed compost pile really doesn't stink that much.

Your friend is a moron, limits must be placed on the individual for society to be possible. Now, some restrictions of property rights, such as the 'keep the lawn at x length and green, the house a drab color, and if you even think about putting up a clothes line or a tool shed, you can go to hell' type of covenants most subdivisions have is absurd, but not being able to open up a pig farm or construct a five hundred foot tower in the middle of a residential block is perfectly justified.

Yeah, he´s one of those B&W people who are unable to think in matters of degree.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

I agree that certain things are stupid, but I feel, personally, that the city/township has good reason not to want someone to have a zillion sheds on his front law or cars on stilts and stuff.

I think he's just being obstinant. No one could possibly want to have a pink house with yellow polkadots and be serious.

[Alyeska]

The price one pays for living in an urban enviroment is that one has to meet standards. If you want property rights to do as you wish, buy land in the middle of nowhere.

[Jarl Sven]

Oh, he agrees that you cannot physically hurt others by using your property, but for some reason he won't recognize damage outside of physical. Apparently, you can fuck up your land and thus devalue everyone's property, but you aren't hurting them. Making those around you miserable or devaluing shit is perfectly A-Ok

Does you friend care about his own property values? No one likes to be told what to do but there is some element of enlighten self interest when it comes to property law.

And it goes beyond just property values. Local governments set up zoning ordinances to help them plan the proper allocation of funds when constructing roads, bridges, schools and related infrastructure. Many of these things take years to plan, build, and fund.

Building whatever you want helps no one.

While I wouldn't choose to live in a new development with a HOA again regular old vanilla ordinances are usually not too onerous.

He called me Communitarian =D I don't why that's bad in this case. It's as if it were used as an insult.

isn’t belonging to a community called civilization?

[tharkûn]

The compost example is easy. I can do anything I wish with my property, so let's go for a pleasant open air cafe. Oh wait your compost heap is emitting olfactory pollution so I can't do that. You just infringed upon my property rights.

Lowering property values is iffy. For decades a black family moving into a neighborhood would lower property values, did they not have a right to own that property just because the neighbors would suffer lower property values? Likewise emblazoning pentacles, anti-Christian slogans, etc. on the walls of the house will lower neighboring property values - should you be restricted from making that use of your property? In some communities just putting up classical Greek statuary will lower property values, there needs to be a better standard that whatever the loss of value created by the most easily offended morons happens to be.

I agree that certain things are stupid, but I feel, personally, that the city/township has good reason not to want someone to have a zillion sheds on his front law or cars on stilts and stuff.

And what would that be? Its an eyesore? In many American communities nudes, non-Christian religious art, a French flag are considered eyesores.

I think he's just being obstinant. No one could possibly want to have a pink house with yellow polkadots and be serious.

You obviously don't know enough stupid artists, some people want things because they are inane, ugly, or moronic.

[Chmee]

I can understand some frustration when land-use laws are applied to you after acquiring the property .... but if you buy 20 acres of rural property somewhere that says you can't subdivide and get rich turning it into twenty 1-acre parcels, I really don't have too much sympathy ... the other people that live around there are just as entitled to maintain a low-density rural environment even if it keeps you from making extra $$ on the land.

[Darth Wong]

I am confused on the issue of property. I was talking with a friend today who is totally against ordinences that limit property rights. I can't see how property rights are absolute.

He's trying to tell me that because you own something, you can do anything you want to your property without actually harming another human/citizen.

So I said: you move to a nice neighborhood, and then build an organic compostpile, 10 broken-down sheds, don't mow your grass for a year etc is that ok?

He said fine. But how is that reasonable? WOuldn't that hurt others by lowering property values? Who the hell wants to live next to someone or near somewith who's house is pink with yellow polkadots, has a compost pile, cars in the yard, and unkempt grass.

You are a fascist, apparently, if you think people shouldn't be able to do anything they want simply because they own it.

Absolutist thinking is typical of juveniles. How old is this little shit?

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

And what would that be? Its an eyesore? In many American communities nudes, non-Christian religious art, a French flag are considered eyesores.

The only type of things I am thinking are wrong are: garbage piles on your law, the compost piles, totally unkept lawns that screw up the area. There are some houses near me that let the grass get way to high. They never cut it at all. They live in something that looks like a trailor all around big victorian houses. They got a house that's all run-down and decaying, and now they are trying to put a bunch of tool sheds on the front lawn. They don't understand that you can only have so many sheds on 1 acre of land.

Their house looks like something from a hooverville.

It is very difficult sometimes to judge what's bad. The things you mentioned don't seem bad. There are some stupid things, like the garage door law or the mailbox law. People pick on petty shit, I think. I just don't want someone to have a garbage lot right next to me.


The guy is probably around 20ish. I am not sure of his exact age.

[Sean Howard]

They smell horrible. THere's a compost pile in my neighborhood, and people are trying to get rid of it. Every day in the summer when the wind blows, we get this rancid cheese smell. It makes it unbearable to go out of the house.

If you're doing your compost correctly, it won't stink. These people need to be taught.

Anyway, in the US, the Constitution clearly provides for eminent domain. In this country at least, very few areas allow for true allodial title, so ultimately your land is really the governments anyway.

[tharkûn]

The only type of things I am thinking are wrong are: garbage piles on your law, the compost piles, totally unkept lawns that screw up the area.

Compost piles in and of themselves are not problems, if they are done responsibly they should not smell. When you start emitting pollution; be it olfactory, audio, or something else then you are infringing upon others.

Unkept lawns, exactly what is the "good reason" for government intervention? There is another word for unkept lawns - natural. Letting the grass, weeds, etc. grow is letting the land revert back to something more natural than the ever popular monoculture of an unseasonal green patch invasive species grass. In most cases the sum total harm caused to the neighbors is that it looks like crap and provides a haven for weeds. Color me unimpressed with that pressing need.

There are some houses near me that let the grass get way to high. They never cut it at all.

So? How does this effect you?

They live in something that looks like a trailor all around big victorian houses. They got a house that's all run-down and decaying, and now they are trying to put a bunch of tool sheds on the front lawn. They don't understand that you can only have so many sheds on 1 acre of land.

Again so? It's an ugly view, but then you don't buy the view when you buy just your little lot. And what is wrong with a bunch of tool sheds? Are any of them harming you?

To whit most of this is the same old, well it will bring down property values. Great, that standard in and of itself is crap. In certain locales having actual period statuary will bring down property values. You need a better measure than "I think it looks like crap."

It is very difficult sometimes to judge what's bad. The things you mentioned don't seem bad. There are some stupid things, like the garage door law or the mailbox law.

Of course it is difficult, this is why there are thousands if not millions of different laws and ordinances governing this problem. The problem with making the effect on property values your only measure is then whatever offends a potential buyer goes up for prohibition. The "I know it when I see it" standard works fine, as long as the judge happens to be reasonable, compotent, and fair - given the ubiquitious spread idiots throughout the world that will often fail. Imagine living in Hicksville, Alabama; do you really want your fundementalist neighbors being able to claim they know an eyesore when they see one?

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

Oh, they probably do have other measures they use other than just an eyesore, I hope.

Compost piles in and of themselves are not problems, if they are done responsibly they should not smell. When you start emitting pollution; be it olfactory, audio, or something else then you are infringing upon others.

That I agree on, but that's the major problem. He doesn't think he has to give two shits about that. I can say they aren't doing a very good job of it here either.

If it doesn't physically hurt you, you can do it.

So? How does this effect you?

You're right. It doesn't effect me. They are usually forced to cut it eventually, or the community has to pay to have it cut. The guy doesn't cut the portion near the road either, even though it's an ordience that you have to do it. He's just a lazy slob. The more pressing problem is the stuff all over the sidewalks and the garbage and the illegal sheds he has, but I will explain that more.

And what is wrong with a bunch of tool sheds? Are any of them harming you?

There's nothing wrong with it intrinsically. In our area, we live fairly close to one another. You can have sheds, but the limit here is 3 foundation buildings, because there isn't enough land to space them all out. They want to build more, and it ends up looking like a hooverville in an area where ou have multi million dollar homes (not all). I think they can have them, but I am just irritated that they don't give a shit about anyone else around them. No one wants to buy into the area because several of the people are doing this and it looks like crap now, and it send many investments into the toilet. It also costs money to pay to have it their yards and areas cut. It's very hard to get people to buy your house when you live next to slobs, so we end up paying to get people to do it for them.

Their lawn is dangerous and unsanitary as well. You have to build your sheds according to a safety code. He doesn't. He just builds sheds all over and thinks it's fine. They leave stuff on the sidewalks in front of their house. They got boards and nails all over and oil pools in the ground. It's like a junkyard, but not.

I do agree with you here some, and I don't think it should be the only criterion at all, but there are some things that are totally unreasonable. You have no problems with people doing stuff like that and devaluing the area? What about your investment? Homes and land are big investments.

The problem is that the homes are so closed together and it's supposed to be one of those communities where there are rules you follow when you enter, but it stopped working a while ago.

[Boyish-Tigerlilly]

Ohhhh. You mentioned pollution: audio etc. We do have some laws about that, which deal with visuo-spacial pollution. I don't really know what it is though.