[Evilness] Empire vs Dominion

Deimos Anomaly · Post by **Deimos Anomaly** » 2002-11-21 03:40pm

Inspired by something that was said in Acclamators latest thread.

Which is the most evil?

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-11-21 03:48pm

The Dominion is probably the more opressive government, seeing as how they use gen engineering to (mentally) subdue people and use drugs to keep them silent.
However when it comes to ruthlessness in crushing it's foes, the Empire certainly is more 'evil', they will not hesitate to eliminate a rebelling planet, even at the cost of billions of innocents.

Mike_6002 · Post by **Mike_6002** » 2002-11-21 03:56pm

The Empire, BDZ, Death Stars, Galaxy Gun, Sun Crusher, World Devastators, that would put me in line, they are more evil, besides the Dominion is B&B evil, AKA The Diet Coke of Evil (Just one calorie, not even enough)

Spartan · Post by **Spartan** » 2002-11-21 03:56pm

The Empire is more evil but seriously I would rather live under Palpatine than the Founders.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-11-21 03:59pm

The Empire is not only more evil, but also less opressive.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-11-21 04:01pm

More evil, less oppressive, and only half the Calories!
New, Death Star 3, Its a planet-killer AND a floorwax.
"They blew up Alderaan, But Look at That Shine!

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-11-21 04:02pm

The founders were willing to kill every single Cardy remember - they arent exactly warm and fuzzy.

Mike: I dont see what the empire's super weapon obsession has to do with anything really

Mike_6002 · Post by **Mike_6002** » 2002-11-21 04:06pm

TheDarkling wrote:The founders were willing to kill every single Cardy remember - they arent exactly warm and fuzzy.

Mike: I dont see what the empire's super weapon obsession has to do with anything really

The Tarkin Doctrine, Fear will keep the local systems in line, they were willing to blow up one of the crown jewels of the galaxy(Alderrean) to prove the Tarkin Doctrine and kill some Rebels, The Dominion used a half-assed aproache, slow destruction, and one time relased a plauge on a planet once in a while, the Empire it's a daily thing, see the Galaxy, blow it up!!!

CNS Sarajevo · Post by **CNS Sarajevo** » 2002-11-21 04:18pm

TheDarkling wrote:The founders were willing to kill every single Cardy remember - they arent exactly warm and fuzzy.

Mike: I dont see what the empire's super weapon obsession has to do with anything really

You don't think Palpy's...er....compensating, do you?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-11-21 04:18pm

Yeah that worked like a charm

- frankly the Dominion was as nasty as the Empire its only the fact hat the empires motives were worse. (by which I refer to the emperor).
Their leader actually liked evil whereas the Dominion simply had the founders thinking they were superior beings and that they knew better and thus should control the solids - for both their and the solids wellbeing.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-11-21 04:19pm

CNS Sarajevo: The thought did occur to me

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-11-21 04:21pm

The Dominion's motives are worse. They're fucking Nazis.
The Emperor's motivation is just to stay in power, and he's willing to do everything to acheive this.

starfury · Post by **starfury** » 2002-11-21 04:25pm

the empire is merely authoritan, the dominion is racist in addition to being ruthless, they even geneticly engineer slaves, something the empire would never condone.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-11-21 04:26pm

No the Cardies were the Nazi's the Dominion were...... well i guess thats why the Cardies and the Dominion got along so well

, at least the Dominion did have so what legitimate reasoning behind their madness Palp was just a wack job.

Lets not forget that actual memebrs of the dominion didnt even know they were members - the Dominion dont seem to bother the general populace of their empire whereas Palp's got off on watching people fight and die.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-11-21 04:28pm

starfury: errmmm CLONES, Something even Thrawn the nicer upgraded dictator used and the storm troopers may or may not be clone troopers but the leader still used them.

Admiral Drason · Post by **Admiral Drason** » 2002-11-21 05:27pm

I never felt that the Dominion was that evil. They seemed just bad but not evil. I would still live under Palpy because hes just cool.

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-11-21 06:58pm

TheDarkling wrote:No the Cardies were the Nazi's the Dominion were...... well i guess thats why the Cardies and the Dominion got along so well , at least the Dominion did have so what legitimate reasoning behind their madness Palp was just a wack job.

No, the Dominion are the Nazi's, Cardassia is Italy.

Palpatine did have legitimate reasons for wanting to be in power - he probably thought that he could do a better job of running the republic than those pussy-assed politicians who were threatening to turn the Republic into the Federation (really, the TF was INVADING A MEMBER PLANET, and they have to DEBATE whether to send some warships to kick their asses?) Besides, he was evil.

The Dominion on the other hand, is more worried about taking over the alpha quadrant on the other side of the galaxy, where the only method of access if one freaking wormhole, which is easily locked off, when they do not stand to gain an appreciable return on investment, when they could just as easily expand in the Gamma quadrant, when they are at a much greater threat from the borg, when they can't even accomplish the invasion without help from a local power... need I go on? The dominion is not only without cause to invade, their invasion is just plain stupid. So stupid in fact, that the Federation WON when all they would have had to do to stop that is to just overrun the minefield with drone ships. And you say there is a METHOD to their madness? That Palpatine was a wack job compared to them? ROTFLMDGFAO! I dare you to back up that total bullshit.

TheDarkling wrote:Lets not forget that actual memebrs of the dominion didnt even know they were members - the Dominion dont seem to bother the general populace of their empire whereas Palp's got off on watching people fight and die.

The Dominion continually opress all non-shapeshifters in their empire because of the Founder's prejudices, whereas Palpatine treats everyone more or less fairly. The Dominion isn't even kind enough to tell people that they are members until they're needed for something, whereas Palpatine has the decency to let them know what is expected of them. The Dominion apparently fights wars with solids just for the hell of it whereas Palpatine only kills if he has a reason (and yes, terrifying repel sympathisers into submission is a valid reason.) The Dominion is even so heartless as to infect planets with genetic plauges so that they die slowly - at least Palpatine had the decency to kill them quickly with a DS superlaser. Your statement is incorrect - it is the dominion that likes watching people suffer and die, not the Empire.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-11-21 07:19pm

First off... wait

ok now its out of my system.

I say Palp is a wack job because he enjoys evil and you question the Dominions war tactics and then ask me to back myself up? try targetting my already put forward reasons.

In truth I cant tell wether you are joking are just being an idiot - the fact that the Dominion doesnt affect their memebrs pretty much proves they dont really affect their serfs whereas average Joe citizens hate the empire.

Palp kills em fast? yeah he also enjoys killing one guy over and over again, hes one swell guy

so the urge to do that overwhelmed me.

The dominion never showed that it liked watching people die just that a plague was more effective as a deterant.

They dont fight wars fdor the hell of it they fight wars to bring "order" to the solids - remember father knows best.

data_link · Post by **data_link** » 2002-11-21 08:01pm

I say Palp is a wack job because he enjoys evil and you question the Dominions war tactics and then ask me to back myself up? try targetting my already put forward reasons.

You were saying that there was a method to the dominion's madness, whereas palpatine is a wack job. By that I took you to mean that the dominion was more sane than Palpy. Which, as I showed, is clearly not the case.

In truth I cant tell wether you are joking are just being an idiot - the fact that the Dominion doesnt affect their memebrs pretty much proves they dont really affect their serfs whereas average Joe citizens hate the empire.

Actually, the average joe is perfectly fine with the Empire - or did you forget that Luke's friends were going to the Imperial military academy - unless you are suggesting that the rebellion actually operates a legitimate military academy that the Empire hasn't destroyed? Find me one example of a dominion serf who would even consider becoming part of the dominion military. Also, remember that Luke was genuinely surprised to learn that C-3P0 even knew of the rebellion's existence - if the rebellion is as small as implied by that statement, then this would suggest that the vast majority of the citizens are no more opposed to the empire than say, America is opposed to G. W. Bush's takeover of the White House.

Palp kills em fast? yeah he also enjoys killing one guy over and over again, hes one swell guy so the urge to do that overwhelmed me.

Where does he enjoy killing one guy over and over again? If you're talking about Luke, remember that Palpatine was not trying to kill him. And since you haven't adressed my actual point, I'l assume you agree. Concession accepted.

The dominion never showed that it liked watching people die just that a plague was more effective as a deterant.

The Empire never showed that it liked watching people die, just that destroying planets was a more effective deterrant.

They dont fight wars fdor the hell of it they fight wars to bring "order" to the solids - remember father knows best.

The Empire doesn't fight wars for the hell of it, the Empire fights to bring order to the galaxy. And if I recall, the Empire wasn't racist about it.

Also, the Dominion fights wars because they want revenge over all the solids who once opressed them (IIRC, one of the founders even states this explicitly). Solids aren't even given the same rights as the Founders - the whole system SCREAMS racist nazism, and certainly doesn't benefit the solids. The Empire on the other hand isn't racist, and has a legitimate reason to be - it's more effective and orderly than the old republic, as I showed (and you never adressed). There are many people who think highly enough of the Empire to serve in its military - there is not one solid (aside from the Jem'hadar, who are genetically engineered to serve, and the Vorta, who are given special rights in return) who would even think of serving in the dominion military. You were saying...?

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-11-21 08:34pm

data_link wrote:Where does he enjoy killing one guy over and over again? If you're talking about Luke, remember that Palpatine was not trying to kill him. And since you haven't adressed my actual point, I'l assume you agree. Concession accepted.

Darkling is talking about Bevel Lemelisk, the engineer in charge of the Death Star project. After Yavin, the Emperor killed Lemelisk but transferred his soul to a clone body, telling him to develope a better Death Star. Lemelisk was killed a total of seven times, IIRC.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-11-22 12:05am

I don't believe in "evil" or "good" governments. Governments exist out of necessity, and always benefit some people while harming others. I'm sure if you asked the Founders or the Emperor's elite forces if their governments were evil, they would say "no." On the other hand, if you asked their slave races, they might say "yes." It all depends on your point of view.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-11-22 12:37am

data_link wrote:The Dominion continually opress all non-shapeshifters in their empire because of the Founder's prejudices, whereas Palpatine treats everyone more or less fairly.

Yes. They are equally inferior beings who, from Palpy's POV, live only to serve the Emperor.

You all get treated like shit, but atleast you are equal shit.

Some of tthe claims here about the Empire are out there. Remember, the "huMAN" policy? For the twit who claimed no slaves, Chewie was a slave.

The Empire is speciest (Thrawn had to bust his ass all the way to the top and even then only the Emperor's patronage let him into the military), sexist (Dalla had to sleep her way to the top), probably racist (Never seen any minorities among the movie crews, though General context fo speech and what not indicate a Prachett racist viewpoint), genocidal (Alderaan), oppressive (Rights being revoked left and right), and geared towards civillian slaughter (it is specifically stated that SDs were designed for planetary bombardment).

And yes, they are space Nazis. They definetly have a facist feel to them, and their hunting of the Jedi mirrors the holocaust.

How the fuck are some people defending them?

BabelHuber · Post by **BabelHuber** » 2002-11-22 05:05am

First of all we have to define what a Nazi is. If I remember correctly, there is a difference between being a Nazi and a fascist.

A fascist:

- Thinks he is part of an elite who will create a better society.
- Victims in this process are a necessary and inevitable side-effect which is excused by the greater goals that have to be reached.
- Denies the existance of an objective morality (that´s why such people can commit such big crimes while being a 'normal' citicen )
- Likes the thought of unlimited power of the state and parades which show it.

A Nazi additionally has a racist opinion. From his point of view, the inferiour races must be annihilated.

The Empire is clearly a fascist state, but the Emperor is no Nazi.

Hunting down the Jedis doesn´t resemble the Holocaust. Jedis can be of different races, and an individual of a species who is no Jedi won´t be affected. Compare that with the Holocaust. If someone was a Jew, there was no excuse. Even if he fought for Germany in WW1, he still was delivered to Auschwitz. That´s quite a difference, isn´t it?

The founders OTOH are not interrested in creating a new society. Their only goal is to suppress all other species to stay in power. The goal is to take total control so nobody can harm them.

If the fascist societies of the 20th century are any indication, you can live in the Empire without problems if you collaborate.

You cannot make a decision like that in the Dominion. You are from inferiour race, therefore you have no rights. Period.

The Dominion is more evil.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-11-22 05:38am

Edata_link: Ender pretty well addressed your silly notion about the Imps playing fair with regard to spieces/race/sex/hell even religion (Jedi), where did you come up with this idea because I am shocked you could think the empire fair.

The Imps also research plagues its just the Dominion seems to be better at it, Luke says himself he hates the empire and he live on a world with almost no Imperial presence - the Rebellion is common knowledge where do you get that fact it isnt from? please tell me you have more to back it up than the fact that Luke was shocked C3PO had first hand contact with the rebellion.

The Dominion more or less treats it people equally (apart from the Founders) and they have so little run influence they some planets dont even realise they are members.
The Dominion military is closed off to average people but thats doesnt imply huge amountys of evil - Im not painting the Dominion as fluffy kittens just less evil than the Imps under Palp.

As for the Empire being more efficient than the OR, the OR lasted for 25,000 years the Empire lasted less than 50, order does not make a government right, the ends do not justify the means and in this case even the ends are wrong.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-11-22 11:41am

BabelHuber wrote:Hunting down the Jedis doesn´t resemble the Holocaust. Jedis can be of different races, and an individual of a species who is no Jedi won´t be affected. Compare that with the Holocaust. If someone was a Jew, there was no excuse. Even if he fought for Germany in WW1, he still was delivered to Auschwitz. That´s quite a difference, isn´t it?

Judiasm is a religion. Being a Jedi is a religion. That is the comparrison, not the race bit. The belief that judiasm is a race, and that people "look jewish" is flawed. You can be jewish and not look a damn thing like the stereotype. So your attempt to paint being jewish as being a distinctive race is just stupid. Oh, and even if a Jedi fought for Palpatine in the Clone Wars he was still purged.

Yes, the Jedi Purge does mimic the Holocaust. It was intended to, and does.

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[Evilness] Empire vs Dominion