Species 8472

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-11-21 04:42pm

10000 LY in six months, that means they are capable of 1/2000 of the speed of the Empire, congratulations.
Personally, I recomend you read the whole summary of Scorpion, if you pay attention, you might learn something.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-11-21 04:43pm

That was my entire point - 8472 will go on destroying worlds until the empire can defend all its worlds good enough - at ANH they simply dont have the ships to do that after a few years of buildup they will be able to do so but how much destruction would have be brough down upon them? 8472 simply then fades into the night having destroyed 1000's of enemy worlds (possibly do major harm to the economy - ref pervious evidence of undefended prime targets) withou taking much damage in return.

Beyond that we dont really know what to expect since ship numbers on 8472 are unknown, exact weapons/shields are unknown as is the limitations on the portals - as said previously if they can open them in an atmosphere the empire goes down hard once 8472 learn of coruscant unless that wrinkly fellow senses the danger, which im not convinced of) but I would expect a few 8472 spies to gather some choice intel.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-11-21 04:45pm

consequences: Concession accepted.
You will note I cited other evidence and that the ship was damaged plus it didnt have access to its realm.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-11-21 04:55pm

TheDarkling wrote:That was my entire point - 8472 will go on destroying worlds until the empire can defend all its worlds good enough - at ANH they simply dont have the ships to do that after a few years of buildup they will be able to do so but how much destruction would have be brough down upon them? 8472 simply then fades into the night having destroyed 1000's of enemy worlds (possibly do major harm to the economy - ref pervious evidence of undefended prime targets) withou taking much damage in return.

After s8472 has destroyed a dozen worlds they'll begin to face resistance since the millitary will be on full alert by then, and a thousand rim worlds won't affect the Imperial economy.
Assuming they even get that far to begin with, which is doubtfull.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-11-21 04:59pm

The military can be on alert but when you have more system than ships you have a problem .

I have also mentioned a major compnent of the imperial economy was undefended- the most important driod construction planet in the empire.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-11-21 05:14pm

TheDarkling wrote:I have also mentioned a major compnent of the imperial economy was undefended- the most important driod construction planet in the empire.

So they will attack that as their first target because the moment they choose another planet to fire their first shot on, those places are going to recieve top priority.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-11-21 06:00pm

Okay, one more time with the Empire's industrial capacity, in the vain hope that your head can be dislodged from your ass with enough kicking.
3 BILLION ISD hulls worth of volume in six months. In Secret. Without permanent facilities in place. This means that in six months the Empire can have 300 ships over every inhabited world, without straining itself.
The first time a planet is destoyed, the Empire goes on full alert. Why? Because the Empire can communicate in real-time across an entire galaxy.
The first time Species 8472 loses a dozen ships they leave. Why? Because they are still pussies.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-11-21 07:09pm

consequences:

lets not include act of plot device here or I can simply say 8472 are unbeatable.
The imps cant produce 3 billion ISD in six months - or at least it cant crew them since if they had the ability they would do so.

Wow real time communciation - the POWER

Refute my points on the 8472 cowardice issue or concede - in fact I will accept that now since you will never accept that just like this thread will crop up again and people will be reset to their bias.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-11-21 07:39pm

TheDarkling wrote:consequences: lets not include act of plot device here or I can simply say 8472 are unbeatable.
The imps cant produce 3 billion ISD in six months - or at least it cant crew them since if they had the ability they would do so.

Disproven. Your claim of 'Act of plot device' is a fallacy.. If you call the Empire's observed production plot device, I will call Species planetbuster a plot device. Fuck off with your pathetic inability to debate honestly.

bozman · Post by **bozman** » 2002-11-22 12:23am

WAAAHAHAHAHA

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-11-22 12:25am

TheDarkling wrote:OK where to begin....

The infiltrators were infiltrators in training (obviously you need backstory so here it comes).

AFter 8472 pulled out of the DQ they realised the greatest threat to their people was the Federation so they began a program designed to gather as much information about the Federation as possible.

That was bright of them. Why didn't they shadow VOY, in the meantime?

They constrcuted apporx 12 space stations scattered across the entire DQ - each one a mock up of San Fransico or more accurantly SF Academy and HQ.

Inside these space stations members of 8472 using a newly developed technology that allowed them to shapeshift were [posing] as SF [personnel] the purpose of which was to train up before going on a mission to infiltrate earth (when Voyager discovers them they are mere weeks away from executing the plan - this is approx 8 months after the 8472 withdrawl from the DQ).

Okay, so would would they withdraw completely from the DQ because of such small casualties? How did they know enough about SF academy to build mockups of it, but not recognize that if they stayed in the DQ, SF would not be a threat to them? How CAN SF be the biggest threat to them, if the Borg easily outmatch SF?

The leader of the group was pretending to be Bothby (a gardner/wiseman) upon meeting Janeway he asked how many SF ships were in the DQ and what SF intentions where, he then states that SF wont be able to destroy all of their training camps in time.

If SF can't even destroy their training camps, HOW CAN SF BE A THREAT TO S-8472?

There was never an 8472 spy acting as a member of Voyagers crew and this therefore deals with a whole slew of your "gripes".

So.... how did they gain such detailed knowledge of SF so easily? If they DID know so much about SF so quickly, WHY DIDN'T THEY RECOGNIZE THAT SF WAS WEAK?

No the position and heading of Voyager - please tell me you arent this stupid - how would 8472 was on a course for earth - they may be going o something much closer along that flight path, not to mention that whenever 8472 meet Voyager they are heading for specific place not stright to earth (if you meant that the "spy" you thought they had on Voyager could access the console and not 8472 ships just by watching Voyager then that still wouldnt work since this spy didnt exist).

They would probably know the same way they figured out everything there was to know about SF command. I guess that if it's possible to gain such detailed knowledge of a ship so easily, there would be no reason to shadow VOY, but there would also be no real reason to go to such lengths to infiltrate SF Academy, either.

Lossing track of a specific ship among millions (given a distinctive ship) and one which was runnning at full pelt out of the engagement area isnt exactly high stupidity - during WW2 could you get upto the second reports on the postion of enemy infantry???? no of course not since we couldnt observe the entire earth then, its would seem that 8472 like a crystal ball with unlimited range -the fools I put my order in for one months ago

LMAO! There's only one ship in the entire quadrant that can hurt you, and you disengage so completely that you lose track of it, but you AREN'T stupid? How is this possible? Either Species-8472 ships are slower than VOY (difficult to imagine), or they are stupid. They should have shadowed VOY, unless they already knew everything there was to know about VOY. This IS stupidity, or cowardice. WHY would you lose such a vessel? Doesn't Species-8472 have any warp capabilities?

Your insistence that they risk full scale conflict with the Borg/Fed alliance (of which they knew nothing) just to keep an eye on one ship among possibly millions (they have no knowledge of Fed fleet size at this point) to gain intel they can (and intend to) get from another source with far less risk and far more gain is frankly silly.

Ah, of course, there was never a war with the Borg, Borg planets were just being destroyed in interstellar incidents. THEY WERE ALREADY AT WAR WITH THE BORG. Darkling, you appear to be missing the point. If they could gain information about SF and its fleet movements instantly, that is the ONLY example in which they should not have dispatched a ship to follow Voyager around, at a distance. Such a vessel would not have to engage Voyager or the Borg. It would merely have to follow them. This would be invaluable data, no matter what was going on, and if Species-8472 had the huge number of ships that you attribute them as having, then it should require no significant resources to do so.

So far you still havent given good enough reasoning and you entire position relies on a spy that never existed (bang - opps with that your leg a just shot out from underneath you?) and a shadowing idea that was unecessary and perfectly reasonable to explain their desicision.

Your position is self-contradictory. Besides, the source of their information is irrelevent. How is it possible to gain such detailed information about SF command without even knowing that VOY is alone in the quadrant?

Then we come to the fact that you have ONE event, even if we ignore reasoning and say your shadowing idea was the absolute best thing they could have done and a blind chimp would have done it since it had no drawbacks (not true), to prove that the entire race is stupid - im sorry one possibly bad choice (and it wasnt, at least not from their POV) is not enough to brand an entire race stupid.

Their FLEET made a bad choice. This is a warlike race. Their fleet should, therefore, represent their race in intelligence. Voyager was clearly their most important problem, at the time, and they responded incredibly poorly to the threat. That is an indication of stupidity. And YES, even a blind chimp would have done it. You would not have, Species-8472 would not have, but EVERYone else would have. This is not brain surgery. Anyone should have been able to see that this was the correct course of action. What part of this do you not understand?

MOO the fact that you have taken to flaming, insisting that your interpretation of someone words is more valid than the person who wrote those words (Alyeska) and outright inventing cannon (or not knowing hte subject material well enough - you could simply of asked for more info you know) seems to indicate you are going down in flames.

I await you ifs,buts,maybes and insults.

PS If you have time and its not to much trouble try to fit a fact or two in aswell - possibly even some intelligent reasoning.

Perhaps it would be easier to have your work interpreted if you learned to spell properly, construct consistent points with the canon you clearly understood so well, and made any effort to understand basic military matters.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-11-22 05:24am

They dont gain information on SF automatically out of nowhere - I would guess that they obtained a SF database after there withdrawl so once again I repeat, they didnt know Voyager was alone (Try to seperate what you know from what they knew, even though you dont seem to be capable of it).

Once they have the database they believe that there is classified info left out (SF in the DQ for example) - you simply arent willing to understand their position.

They withdrew to gather Intel - how many times??????

As for SF destroying SF training camps it was because at this point they knew the bulk of the Feds fleet was in the AQ although they were still worried about an attack on their own domain - yet further proof of the portals not being range limited.

That more or less takes care of everything you said apart from the them not provoking a fullscale conflcit with an unknown and deadly enemy (the Feds).

You would have made that choice (I will take you as an expert on chimp level intellect) because you knew Voyager was alone they didnt know this however try to seperate your knowledge from theirs, you dont seem to be getting this concept.

Prehaps you could understand me better if you a) stopped focusing on small errors (spelling (well rather typing) Nazi) b)actually learned some canon (concession accepted on the spy thing) c)actually understood the concept that 8472 arent all knowing.

You have more less repeated what you said last time - this is either dishonest of you or you just dont understand the situation, its plain as day to me but maybe thats because I watched the episodes in question instead of just inventing things.

I await you next post on why they should have kept a shipin the DQ even though I have already shown many times you have got a leg to stand on (or if you have you havent yet presented it).

SirNitram: It was an act of plot device but my comment was light hearted, I did however include a possible reason behind the lack ships, doesnt the imperial sourcebook say it was going to take the imps 20 years to be upto full power -that would be 120 Billion ISD's which taking 50 Planets as the empires size would put a few 1000 ISd's in each planets orbit, slight obver kill.

If the Imps could build and crew 3 billion ISD's in 6 months they could have had full control in that time making the Death star pointless (approx 100 ISD's per planet taking into account transit time this means any planet could have fleets numbering in the 1000s in hours if not minutes).

Therefore the Empire is either to stupid to go for a big fleet (a valid claim given the super weapon of the weeks) or there is some limitation on how many ships they can press into service (crew,special parts,fuel,etc).

Frankly either thing works in 8472s favour since the imps either cant build and deploy the ships that fast or they wouldnt since they would prefer to build the 8472 buster, of course it would take time to research,build and deploy such a weapon - not to mention building in the fatal weakness 8472 could exploit to win the day (someone in imperial R&D didnt want the Imps to win methinks.)

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-11-22 05:32am

Have you actually considered, Darkling, that the Empire isn't at war? It would not need all these ships? It's doing anti-terrorism work.. One does not need a battleship in every port to do that! When you have worlds like Coruscant(projected populations above 500 Trillion), and cloning, staffing isn't a problem.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-11-22 05:32am

How does one DS compare to 4 billion ISD's?
This is how:
1 DS = 1.000.000 crewers
4 billion ISD's = 148.000.000.000.000 crewers

1 DS = 25.000 turbolaser turrets
4 billion ISD's = 256.000.000.000 turbolaser turrets

1 DS = 1 computer system
4 billion ISD's = 256.000.000.000 computer systems

1 DS = Nearly self sufficient resource base by itself(IIRC)
4 billion ISD's = Will require supply lines and infra structure build up to support all those ships for food, spare parts, tibanna gas, engine fuel, starbases to maintain all the ships.

Etc, etc, etc.

As for the imperial fleet strenght around ANH, I'd wage 6-10 million ships and around TESB 12-22 million ships based on the official data.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-11-22 05:36am

And the 8's still can't do any serious damage to the Empire, if they dare to attack any important planets they'll get smeared.

Meanwhile it wouldn't take long to build a basic automated defense platform, essentially a mini DS, a sphere, a reactor and a compound laser of a few hundred teratons in firepower and they'll be able to defend any world with these with ease against 8472 incursions.

And possibly a very large buildup of planetary shields would also happen.
And with this extra incentive the Empire will consoldiate it's holdings even quicker.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-11-22 05:42am

HDS:I agree, if the 8472 cant take an ISD with ships numbering in the 10s then they cant win but nor can the Imps, 8472 will waste alot of planets find the rest to strong and call it a draw.

It would also probably cause the empire to rally more support since a war would cause people to support the government more since the fall of the Imps would cause disaster.

Thanks for pointing out what I was saying about the DS to ISD ratio, I believe those figures make the situation all the more clear.

SirNitram: They dont clone navy staff do they?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-11-22 06:02am

The jury is out on navy staff, but we know it was done during Thrawn's campaign.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-11-22 02:48pm

Hmm, you know, the stats that His Divine Shadow quotes are from materials that have been disproven as accurate by observations of the canon, in addition to common sense arguments.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-11-22 03:15pm

I will leave you to debate that with HDS however common sense points to the fact that imps cant field the amount of ships you state they can.

consequences · Post by **consequences** » 2002-11-22 03:18pm

A combination of cloning, mass conscription, and advanced droid control technologies means they can.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-11-22 03:26pm

It isnt just crewing the ships (again if they can they would - either they cant crew them as you say or they wont even when the empire begins to fall apart).

It cuold be that manufacture of engines or reactor cores etc is very differcult yes they make be able to build 3 Billion ISD hulls (I personally disagree but simply because it clashes with alot of other stuff) but if reactor cores (or computer cores etc) are very differcult to build and they can only build a few 1000 of those a year then thats alot of useless space hulks.

I will make my point again (since everyone else on the thread doesnt seem to be actually supporting your idea) if the imps could field such a huge army then why dont they? they sure have enough reason to do so - the DS was for the purpose of ruling by fear what they couldnt control by force (anyone want to help me out on the 20 years thing Im sure its from one of the RPG books) however if they could put 10000s of ISD in orbit of each world the death star becomes pointless since that many ships is easily enough to enforce the new order without fear (or extra fear producing devices) .

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-11-22 04:48pm

TheDarkling wrote:It isnt just crewing the ships (again if they can they would - either they cant crew them as you say or they wont even when the empire begins to fall apart).

It cuold be that manufacture of engines or reactor cores etc is very differcult yes they make be able to build 3 Billion ISD hulls (I personally disagree but simply because it clashes with alot of other stuff) but if reactor cores (or computer cores etc) are very differcult to build and they can only build a few 1000 of those a year then thats alot of useless space hulks.

I will make my point again (since everyone else on the thread doesnt seem to be actually supporting your idea) if the imps could field such a huge army then why dont they? they sure have enough reason to do so - the DS was for the purpose of ruling by fear what they couldnt control by force (anyone want to help me out on the 20 years thing Im sure its from one of the RPG books) however if they could put 10000s of ISD in orbit of each world the death star becomes pointless since that many ships is easily enough to enforce the new order without fear (or extra fear producing devices) .

Darkling's right. There are quite obviously a vast number of resources that go into a ship like an ISD. Those resources take the form of personnel (who also need to be trained--which takes time), raw materials, industrial facilities, and money. If I'm trying to build a car, and I have thousands of tires but no metal, then I clearly will be unable to create a complete car. Similarly, possessing the raw materials to build an ISD is meaningless if the Empire doesn't have the industrial facilities to construct them.

BabelHuber · Post by **BabelHuber** » 2002-11-22 05:27pm

But having lots of ships requires not only the manufacturing, but also the payment for staff and maintenance, not to speak of the additional costs for logistics and supply.

It could be that a superweapon was seen as the cheapest possibility to achieve the goal of controlling by fear. Additionally the senate didn´t want the Navy as big as Palpatine built it. This could have caused some resistance, which was finally overcome when the Empire could get rid of it.

AFAIK the Executor was built afterwards, which would fit.

Myriads of Droid-controlled Ties should be simple and fast to build for defence purposes, and if the Voyager could destroy a S8472 ship, a few dozen Ties could probably, too.

The Empire would gain the sympathy of the population immediately and raise production and training. S8472 had fought the Borg for a few month, and if this was all that they can they couldn´t overcome the empire within only a year orso, given the much bigger size of the Empire compared to the Borg.
The Empire could defend itself and cause heavy casualties while slowly getting stronger and stronger. Imagine an imperial counter Attack with fleets let by Vader or Trawn heading mercilessly into S8472 space. This is clearly the point where the fun would end.