Force Sub Winter 1941, Russian Front Tanks vs Mechs

[The Yosemite Bear]

Due to some time Traveling The SS Panzer Corps now has one Zeon Mobile suit for each tank.

The Russians also have T-90s, LOS Missiles at the Infantry Platoon level, and Hinds.

General Winter is in full effect.

*Now everyone, remembers what happens to a structure landing after an extended leg and back pack jump, with Russian Mud, and legs for locomotion don't you?*

[MKSheppard]

Due to some time Traveling The SS Panzer Corps now has one Zeon Mobile suit for each tank.

The Russians also have T-90s, LOS Missiles at the Infantry Platoon level, and Hinds.

General Winter is in full effect.

*Now everyone, remembers what happens to a structure landing after an extended leg and back pack jump, with Russian Mud, and legs for locomotion don't you?*

"General Zhukov! Our Tank Corps are breaking through their front lines,
they have no mobile reserves! They're all bogged down in the mud while
our tanks outrun them!"

[MKSheppard]

And while the Zeon Mecha guys are trying to dig their mecha out of the
mud, they get overrun and killed by wave after wave of T-90s roaring out
of the forests, with SMG infantry clinging to their turrets, spraying everyone
with their PPSh-41s as they charge through the Zeon rear areas

[Sea Skimmer]

The slaughter would be unprecedented, though Ka-52's would be much better the Hind's. The Germans would be in full retreat within a couple days.

[Dark Hellion]

Does anyone realize that the tanks are severly outgunned. The Zaku I had a 100mm Machine gun. The russian tanks only have 80mm cannons. Zakus withstand multiple hits from a gun that is 20mm greater and has at least twice the muzzle velocity. Plus Zakus wont have much trouble with mud. 1 meter deep much only barely covers their feet.
Before you do a mech bashing thread learn a little about the universe and don't be so goddamn smug. Mech's aren't a good real life concept but any idiot can tell you that sci-fi is not real life. Mechs in sci-fi are good. They are generally better than tanks. Please don't start a big tank vs. mech discussion, they are idiotic as both sides are too arrogant and stupid to give any points to the other. This post is clearly designed to be inflammitory. Just think before you post next time.

[consequences]

The T-90 has an 80 mm cannon? Since when? How did you calculate the muzzle velocity of the Zaku's machine gun?

[Sea Skimmer]

Does anyone realize that the tanks are severly outgunned. The Zaku I had a 100mm Machine gun. The russian tanks only have 80mm cannons. Zakus withstand multiple hits from a gun that is 20mm greater and has at least twice the muzzle velocity. Plus Zakus wont have much trouble with mud. 1 meter deep much only barely covers their feet.
Before you do a mech bashing thread learn a little about the universe and don't be so goddamn smug. Mech's aren't a good real life concept but any idiot can tell you that sci-fi is not real life. Mechs in sci-fi are good. They are generally better than tanks. Please don't start a big tank vs. mech discussion, they are idiotic as both sides are too arrogant and stupid to give any points to the other. This post is clearly designed to be inflammitory. Just think before you post next time.

Why dont you take your own advice moron?

Before you spew more bull about learning about mecha's, why don’t you learn something about real life. THE T-90 HAS A 125MM GUN, NOT 80MM.

Your entire argument is based off of one gun having twice the muzzle energy of another, yet you don’t even know how big one of the guns is. Thus any calculation you may have done are total bullshit. This is further reinforced by the fact that in ordered to calculate the muzzle energy of the T-90's gun you'd need the muzzle velocity and shell weight. Any source that gives you that would also note its correct bore. The fact that you don’t have the correct bore make it a near sure thing that you're just guessing about the whole damn thing.

[Sea Skimmer]

And while the Zeon Mecha guys are trying to dig their mecha out of the
mud, they get overrun and killed by wave after wave of T-90s roaring out
of the forests, with SMG infantry clinging to their turrets, spraying everyone
with their PPSh-41s as they charge through the Zeon rear areas

Tank descets don’t last very long when you have reactive armor on the tank as well.

[MKSheppard]

Plus Zakus wont have much trouble with mud. 1 meter deep much only barely covers their feet.

......

Before you do a mech bashing thread learn a little about the universe and don't be so goddamn smug. Mech's aren't a good real life concept but any idiot can tell you that sci-fi is not real life. Mechs in sci-fi are good. They are generally better than tanks. Please don't start a big tank vs. mech discussion, they are idiotic as both sides are too arrogant and stupid to give any points to the other. This post is clearly designed to be inflammitory. Just think before you post next time.

Do you have any fucking idea how bad the Mud is in russia?

It is fucking insane, and mud has tremendous SUCTION. It takes
something like 200+ tons of pull to rip a 70 ton tank out of
a mudpit.

[MKSheppard]

Tank descets don’t last very long when you have reactive armor on the tank as well.

This was a force sub....I would expect Zhukov would stick to his old practices
of tank riding infantry until they discovered the ERA

[Dark Hellion]

Sorry I missed the T-90 part. I thought we were using WWII tanks. However, since the tanks in Gundum fire shells that have muzzle velocities of 10 kps and these are considered no threat to a zaku. To think that a modern tank firing 1600 mps shells (this is a sabot the average tank only has a dozen of these) is honestly an enourmous threat.
The tanks will only kill mechs on a lucky shot to the cockpit and the zaku may have a shield that can block that. Infantry will not be ably to aproach with cracker grenades and 105 mm machine gun rounds firing at them. And tanks will go down hard to 280mm bazookas and beam rifles.
This is not a battle the russians can win. They are just outgunned and innaffectively armed to take out a force with a century or more tech advantage.
To give you another look at it. 65,000 Civil war troopers with average weapons versus 25 T-90 tanks with the tracks removed. The T-90s win because the civil war troops cannot harm it and the T-90s mow down everything in range.
No one who has ever watched gundam could honestly think that the tanks can win. This is just a place to flame mechs and you chose gundam because its too easy to flame Btech. If you want to flame get AIM or MSN instant messanger and send it to eachother cause noone else gives a shit about this bullshit tanker wanking thread.

[consequences]

65000 Civil War troops would win because the tanks would run out of ammunition and food, please obey your own rules on posting, and think.
How the hell do you block something incoming at 1600mps with a shield? By the time you have seen it and registered its presence across its effective range it has already hit you. This goes double for during the series when they block shots that are supposed to be six times faster.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Sorry I missed the T-90 part. I thought we were using WWII tanks. However, since the tanks in Gundum fire shells that have muzzle velocities of 10 kps and these are considered no threat to a zaku. To think that a modern tank firing 1600 mps shells (this is a sabot the average tank only has a dozen of these) is honestly an enourmous threat.
The tanks will only kill mechs on a lucky shot to the cockpit and the zaku may have a shield that can block that. Infantry will not be ably to aproach with cracker grenades and 105 mm machine gun rounds firing at them. And tanks will go down hard to 280mm bazookas and beam rifles.
This is not a battle the russians can win. They are just outgunned and innaffectively armed to take out a force with a century or more tech advantage.
To give you another look at it. 65,000 Civil war troopers with average weapons versus 25 T-90 tanks with the tracks removed. The T-90s win because the civil war troops cannot harm it and the T-90s mow down everything in range.
No one who has ever watched gundam could honestly think that the tanks can win. This is just a place to flame mechs and you chose gundam because its too easy to flame Btech. If you want to flame get AIM or MSN instant messanger and send it to eachother cause noone else gives a shit about this bullshit tanker wanking thread.

First of all, the Mud during the Russian winter is so bad, were talking tarpits, it would require more force then the mechs could produce to get out of that mud, We are not talking a mere meter or two, landing after a jump the Zaku would sink about waste deep into the mire.

Then they would be dead meat for a flanking attack.

[Dark Hellion]

I have a question, why don't the russian tanks sink then. A t-90 is something like 50 tons. It is wide but i don't think it is wide enough.
And another question, do the zeonic forces get top of the line units or jujst zakus. Dom tropen units hover above the ground about 1 meter at all times and gouf flight suits fly. Many suits can generate 100-200 tons of thrust for long periods of time which should be enough toallow them to escape.
I am sorry about being a jerk but this is obviously not ment to be a serious thread. It's like me posting a TA vs. SC thread. While at first appearances one would assume similarity when looked at in detail one force is obviously superior.

Consequences, as for the shield part, let me reiterate, the tanks cannot achieve a kill without a shot to the cockpit, just hold the shield in front of the cockpit. It is that simple.

[Vejut]

105 mike-mike would be machine cannon/autocannon--just a nitpick.

T-90's are tanks designed and built in russia--they probably have they're ways--and beyond that, ground pressure of mechs>>ground pressure of tanks (8 square meters with 50 or more tons on top (being VERY generous, I think...6x6 feet...vs. the same mass spread over 12 square meters (numbers are guess, est. feet on mech 2m x 2m (6ftx6ft, large IIRC), tracks on tank 3 ft (1m) wide, by 18ft (6m) (about...sorry, I think in american units...)) Tanks may get stuck, but the Russian's will be prepared for it, and in any case will get stuck less and less heavily than the mech.

10000m/s...this comes from where?

280mm bazookas...so? how much damage/energy does it put into the target? A 12-in parrot gun (Civil war era cannon) is no match for a 12-inch WWII cruiser gun.
Furthermore, how common are said 280's...and IIRC, you don't mention that beam cannons only get 6 rounds (thats IIRC...)

AND...what proof do you have that the armor can stop a shell "anywhere but the cockpit...and how is the pilot going to see out the cockpit with a sheild in front of it...

[Dark Hellion]

Vejut, the 280mm bazooka shell is far more destructive than a 120mm machine gun. This is clear from the affect the two shells have on zakus. 120mm machine gun puts abunch of holes in it and it either explodes or just falls down too damaged to move. The bazooka rapes them in one shot.
The 10,000 m/s comes from some site and many people on other forums have agreed. I don't have the original site, sorry, I lost it when a virus ate my bookmarks. It is the gun of the tanks in MS Gundam. The machine guns have a similar muzzle velocity.

As for the armor. The fact that 120mm machine gun rounds bounce off the luna titanium armor on most high end mecha and it takes many hits to even down 1 normal (ie without the normal negative character shields that fighting the gundam bring about) zaku it seems that the guns of the T-90 would be less than effective.

As for the cockpit. Watch an episode. They never look out of the cockpits. They got 360 degree field of cameras that are hooked to cockpit monitors.
And also what affect will hundreds of 18 meter tall suits flying around at 90km/h have on the russian moral.

[Sea Skimmer]

Vejut, the 280mm bazooka shell is far more destructive than a 120mm machine gun. This is clear from the affect the two shells have on zakus. 120mm machine gun puts abunch of holes in it and it either explodes or just falls down too damaged to move. The bazooka rapes them in one shot.
The 10,000 m/s comes from some site and many people on other forums have agreed. I don't have the original site, sorry, I lost it when a virus ate my bookmarks. It is the gun of the tanks in MS Gundam. The machine guns have a similar muzzle velocity.

As for the armor. The fact that 120mm machine gun rounds bounce off the luna titanium armor on most high end mecha and it takes many hits to even down 1 normal (ie without the normal negative character shields that fighting the gundam bring about) zaku it seems that the guns of the T-90 would be less than effective.

As for the cockpit. Watch an episode. They never look out of the cockpits. They got 360 degree field of cameras that are hooked to cockpit monitors.
And also what affect will hundreds of 18 meter tall suits flying around at 90km/h have on the russian moral.

No math + no link= no claim. Anyway it would be a minimal threat, a shell moving that vast would shatter on impact with reactive armor or even just RHA.

The Russians are unlikely to fear the Mecha, they have a ten to one advantage in armor and thousands of missiles and Hinds. Massed fire will blow them to peices easily, assuming the AT-11's dont just slice through the armor.

Armor that stos Kenetic rounds bestis less then brilliant against HEAT attacks.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Especcially since the hinds and the Infintry have the LOS missiles (anyone on the speed of those puppies) *eagerly awaits Phong's enjoyment*

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Well, the T-90s would be bogged down in the mud too. And Zakus have jump jets. And better LOS. And they use super hardened steel at the very least. And even the cockpit is so heavily armored that AT missiles have trouble penetrating even with direct hits.

Not that tanks are weak, but they would be outclassed here. And if we bring in the Doms... And even if the Zaku sank waist deep (mud must be at least 8m deep) it can still torso twist...

Although i concede that ten to one odds with aerial support would force a defeat of the Zakus, though I believe the Zakus would take their fair share down with them.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Dude it comes down to overpressure distribution. First of all, the series SHOWS that Zakus and Dom's though designed for space with their jump packs do have to land. It shows that when encountering mud, or an unstable structure not capable of supporting their surface area, they do break through, and become mired down. (They can't just continually hover on their jet packs)

The other thing is that people say well this has hardened steel shiedl, or titanium armour (In refrence to superiority of Landmates, Fakkes, and Zakus vs. Modern tanks) and then completly fail to understand what modern armour is like. (Read it's not aluminum foil, or WWII tank armour)

Also I said modern LOS missiles were on the Russian side, None of the missiles ever dipicted in any of the MSG series are transsonic.

[SAMAS]

So let's get this straight:

You give one side only Mobile Suits, and the other gets mixed armor, including air suppourt, and you think it all comes down to Zakus getting stuck in the mud?

Okay, I'll take your stacked scenario, and see if I can work with it. First, a few questions:

#1: How many tanks did the Germans have?

#2: How deep is the mud?

[Evil Sadistic Bastard]

Dude it comes down to overpressure distribution. First of all, the series SHOWS that Zakus and Dom's though designed for space with their jump packs do have to land. It shows that when encountering mud, or an unstable structure not capable of supporting their surface area, they do break through, and become mired down. (They can't just continually hover on their jet packs)

The other thing is that people say well this has hardened steel shiedl, or titanium armour (In refrence to superiority of Landmates, Fakkes, and Zakus vs. Modern tanks) and then completly fail to understand what modern armour is like. (Read it's not aluminum foil, or WWII tank armour)

Also I said modern LOS missiles were on the Russian side, None of the missiles ever dipicted in any of the MSG series are transsonic.

Yosemite, I mention the Dom because it has a hoverjet system. That renders most difficult terrain irrelevant.

And I agree that Zakus can't hover forever, but they can certainly hover long enough to get to solid ground. Shoot the ground, if it splashes, don't land there.

[SAMAS]

One Last Question:

#3: Is the Antarctic Treaty still in effect?

[The Yosemite Bear]

No I only mentioned Landmates and Fakkes because of the fallacy someone brought up:

Claiming that Doms & Zaku's have case steel which is equal to WWII tank armour, so that means their armour is inferior to modern armour. (Go fig)

Actually the way we know that the 120mm Machine gun, or Missiles in a MSG force are NOT transonic comes down to three points

1. Unprotected humans have survived being in the imediate area of a mobile suit battle and still have thier hearing.

2. The Recoil of a Transonic round in space would "Not Be good" in it's effects on the frame stress.

3. Someone has actually used one of those shields to intercept a missile/120mm rifle round in the mobile suit series. Even with enhancement, a round traveling at transonic speeds, at close reange can not be intercepted.


The reason we also know that MSG armour is lighter then modern tank armour. 1. It was designed for space operation and high manuverability in vacume, while you no longer have gravity to fight, you still have inertia. Since the multi-jets allow them to be highly manuverable in space, and in fractional gravity, (But not all that manuverable on the ground), The armour had to be made out of a fairly light wieght material.)

Also, mech's have a higher target profile, (Thus they can be seen and engaged at a much greater distance then the tanks could)

[The Yosemite Bear]

Actually the substitution was one for one.

The Nazi's have as many Zeon Mechs from the first War as they had tanks. Since I added Hinds for fighters, the Nazi's have their Stuka's replaced with Zeon air power as well.

The Russians have their modern day/Very Near Future equivelents in terms of Armour, Artillery, and Air. (Thus the Russian Tank killer air craft have become Hinds and Su-27's), The Russians have their latest tank model of today, They have their Artillery replaced with modern (and in the case of the LOS & Metalstorm system Very Near Future, equivilents)

Both sides have their Platoon based anti-armour weapons upgraded (So that the infantry stand a small chance), to the appropreate equivilients. (I guess this means all of the Panserfausts have been replaced by RPG-7's that never run out of ammo )

The historical road, and enviornmental conditions are as per winter of 1941.