SW vs ST ground forces commanded by YOU

[AdmiralKanos]

OK, here's the drill: normally, when we talk about SW and ST ground forces, we are basically talking about two forces that seem to have shit for brains when it comes to most effectively using the resources at their disposal.

So if you, assuming some tactical skill, took command of a typical ST or SW ground force in some battle from one of the movies or shows, how would you have altered their tactics (using the same numbers of men and types of equipment as in the original battle) to improve their performance?

Name the battle and describe how you would improve their tactics to improve their performance. Special credit for turning an historical loss into a victory.

[Lone_Prodigy]

The RotJ ground battle. My change is simple for the imperial forces: order the base commander not to open the doors under any circumstances short of a direct order by me to do so. Easy, simple win.

[Patrick Degan]

Endor: for a start, unlike Col. Klink, I'd never have opened the doors to the shield bunker before getting the all-clear from the Emperor.

Beyond that, I'd have sterilised the area surrounding the bunker for a radius of 500 metres, denying any infiltrating or insurgent force any possible cover. They'd have to come across open ground. Minefields at the perimetre with armoured pillboxes and a continuing AT-AT/AT-ST patrol; attackers would have faced every possible disadvantage trying to make an approach within the security zone.

[Noble Ire]

The Battle of Naboo: The Gungans.

Even though it was simply a distraction, and the Droid Army was deactivated eventually, the Gungan Grand Army could have planned their operation better. Rather than placing the entire force in the open, grassy valley, only deploy half the force, a few Fambaa shield Generators, a convincing number of cavalry and infantry in the open field, in full view of the approaching exetermination force (after all, the TF didnt know how many Gungans were left, so they could be easily be decived that a half sized force was everything they had.) Place the artillery (catapults) under cover in the forest at the top of the hill behind the battle field, as well as some guard forces. Have a few infantry units stay at the crest of the hill just beyond the forest, with a few of the plasma ball carries, fully loaded and faced down the hill. Keep a Fambaa with them, deactivated. Place the remaining forces (most of the Cavalry, a few artillery units) in cover of shrubry (if available) or out of line of sight behind the hill's outlying slopes.

Presumably, even if the TF spots the outlier forces, they will still proceed by pushing their force directly towards the main infantry force, especially if the bulk of the side forces are hidden. The forward Fambaas ignite their shields as the tanks move into range and the shelling starts. However, after a few hits, the Fambaas "lose power" and the Gungan force is compled to retreat, the infantry breaking into a mad rush for the visible rienforcements on the hill. The TF moves in pursuit, presumably killing the slower Fambaas. The main force reacheds the top of the hill, and the rear shields come on line, covering them, as well as the ammo carriers. The TF shells a bit, and then deploys its ground troops to penetrate the sheilds. However, when the droids push through the shields, they are met by a rain of plasma ball fire from the Gungan troops, as well as the payloads of the larger artillery ammo, which are unleashed and roll down the hill into the advancing soldiers.

While the troops are distracted, the artillery still hidden in the forest open up from either side of the shield dome, targeting tanks. The ATTs try to manuver into a firing postion of the artillery, but their progress is impeded by the still active shield. At this point, the TF's rear is completely unguarded, and having inched forward during the tank advance, the Cavalry and support artillery move in from behind, peppering the MTTs and their support tanks. Even if the ground troops are able to destroy the shiled, they are now with out tank support and surrounded. Checkmate.

[Murazor]

The rebel commando, ROTJ. Don't take a slow and clumsy thing like C3P0 in a operation where you need a critical success. If for some reason you must include him (to speak with R2-D2, perhaps) use some cammo paint so that the Stormtorpes don't spot the golden droid from a mile away. Of course, in the movie it was C3P0 who saved the day becoming the Ewok deity and all that, but from a SoD point of view it is just plain ridiculous.

[NecronLord]

The Jem'Hadar could have won the battle at AR-556 (or whatever) by simply coming at the enemy via unexpected routes, and using their holograms to join the attack, resulting in wasted ammunition on the part of their enemies. One could keep using the holograms all night, and then use them as a diversion for the main attack.

[The Guid]

The Jedi in the Gladiatorial Arena. All jump in, bunch around Obi Wan, Padme and Anakin for about 5 seconds as you give 2 of them lightsabers and release their bonds then use the Force Jump and Force run thing to scatter amongst the crowd so that fire can not be concentrated up on them (Anakin can carry Padme.) Make their way back seperatly to whatever craft brought them before anyone really knows what's happened. Oh and don't stand there for 20 seconds or so beforehand whilst Mace Windu has a mano-a-mano with Count Dooku.

Battle of Hoth as the rebels. Get some explosives and completely trash the approach to the base. I'd love to see the AT-ATs deal with huge craters!

Battle of Endor as the Imperials. All bunch around the shield generator doors - make that the top priority. Also, on a slightly angrier note from me, don't become victims to one of the most ludicrous things that happens in Star Wars.

[Crazedwraith]

Battle of Yavin, as the Rebels. When Drath Vader drops a few fighter behind the trench runners. Drop the next trio of fighters behind him. Either to take him out or if thats impossibe to minimise the time Vader has to blow the second group up.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Battle of Hoth, as rebels: The use of high-powered missiles such as proton torps fired near the feet of the AT-ATs should pretty easily take out all of the biggest guns o the ground assault force. Set up a larger defensive perimeter near the Shield Generator and once again use heavy artillery to nuke the advancing forces. Ask everyone politely to wear good goggles for when the blinding light comes.

Battle of Endor, as Imperials: First, lock the damn doors doors on all walkers and tell the captains not to open them under any circumstances- stormtroopers can shoot whatever's on top.
Second, order the men to keep the door closed at all costs.
Finally, have the men scorch/sterilise/burn the forest out to one kilometre around the base, so that nothing can sneak up on us.

Battle of AR-558, as the Jem'Hadar: First, use those holograms and phased mines to the best advantage possible. Second, don't just charge screaming straight into the bottleneck. Divide the force into several teams which will all find different avenues of attack and sneak into the base under the Shroud, as the holograms distract the Feds. Finally, if possible, have the Dominion replicate some enemy 'antiques'- F-22s, M-1 Abrams tanks, and M16s.

[Lancer]

just a note:
if protorps have kiloton or megaton yields, are you sure you want to fire them so close to your ice-cave base?

[Macunaima]

With the Dominion fleet, during the battle on Call to Arms: unlike Dukat, Weyoun and Damar, I would made of the Defiant my top priority, having most of the fleet -- if not all -- to get on top of the unshielded, uncloaked Defiant deploying those mines, and engage it. With that much firepower, the Defiant could become a dust of debris very quickly, and then I would turn my attention on the station. But considering the importante of the wormhole, the Defiant would be really the main objective, no question about it.

[Darksider]

Call to Arms battle as Starfleet:

Get some more damnd ships to cover that station! It's the most important peice of real estate in the galaxy at this time period, and the feddies managed to lose it in the opening battle of the damnd war........

News Flash: The Dominion won't care about losing one of their shipyards if they can bring thousands of ships in from the gamma quadrant. Hold that station at all costs. Reinforce them, then worry about offensive actions.

[Knife]

Spooky, I've been arguing about tactics of Seige of AR558 with Newland on his board. Anyway;

Seige of AR 558.
Dominion.

The Jemmies had an ORP some 3 klicks from their objective. The Fed's knew they were there so the Jem's didn't have tactical nor strategic suprise. They did have superior numbers though and freedom of movement. They also knew that there were mines in the area and had the ability to recon by hologram.

The Plan.

Utilize your hologram recon force to 'probe' and 'harrass' the Federation troops to distract and demoralize them while you split your force into three teams. A) team is the assult force. B) team is the support force. And C) team is the security/reinforcements force.

Ultimately, going through the bottle neck is bad. Seeking an alternate avenue of approach would be keen. However, for shits and giggles, lets say there isn't.

Team A moves up the canyon to a place just out of sight of the Federation defensive postions. Team B scales the cliff line at some point between their ORP and the Fed defenses and moves up towards the cliff edge facing the Fed defenses. Team C moves up behind Team A and/or extract point for Team B, or a position that covers both extract for A and B.

On signal and/or time, Team B lays out a supressive fire from their elevated positions. They fire from prone to limit their exposure to both enemy sight and enemy fire. Most of the Federation fighting positions were either rocks or stacked crates. The elevated positions would eliminate this cover and leave the Fed's exposed to the Jem Hadar fire.

Team A, with supportive fire, manuvers by FIRE TEAM and not enmass, through the rest of the canyon with supportive fire from their own organic fire teams, using the sparce rocks in the canyon as cover to manuver. (note: The Dominion put the mines in the area, it shouldn't be too hard to figure they might have a deactivation code/signal to deactivate them since they do want to go inside the station to secure it.)

Either the Fed's are over run and retreat to the station proper, or the A and B teams decimate them. Either way, assualt team secures the Fed defensive positions, and C team moves up. If A team is able to continue attack, A team moves towards the caves to assualt the station. If not, C team takes over role as assualt team and moves to the station.

Once either A or C team has the outside positions secured and either A or C team moves to the station, B team repells down or climb's down the cliff face and takes up position with the remaining security team and at this point B team becomes trailer team for the assult team in the station.

Note: Mostly small arms and gernades at this point, though B team coud use gernades against exterior Fed fighting positions as well in the initial attack.

Once the station is secured, mission accomplished.

[Lord of the Farce]

just a note:
if protorps have kiloton or megaton yields, are you sure you want to fire them so close to your ice-cave base?

My concern exactly. It's hardly a real victory if your solution ends up burying half of your own people and equipment under countless tons of ice, just to buy a few more minutes which are now worthless for the evacuation.

[Lord of the Farce]

As for my take on the ROTJ ground battle, as the Imperial commander, I'd make sure that if anybody calls for reinforcements at the rear bunker entry, I send it in the form of a spare AT-AT loaded with Stormtroopers, blasting its own path to the said location.

[brianeyci]

U.S.S. Odyessy

I wouldn't have rammed the Galaxy. The assumption is that the Galaxy had its shields down and would have been able to defeat the three bugs had they not rammed. I would have saved ramming for a major battle, where I would use it en masse. Then ramming would turn from a strategic weapon "scare tactic" to a tactical weapon that would win me a major battle. In later episodes ramming was used a lot, but they were prepared for it because of the Odyessy encounter.

AR-558

The mines were horribly ineffective. I would not use them. I would, as suggested by others, turn on fake holograms permanently and throw them through the single entrance (assuming there is only one way in). The Feds would have to continually waste ammunition shooting at the holograms. Let's say every fifth man would be a real Jem'Hadar. At the same time, I would be boring through the rock with whatever weapons and explosives available to create a secondary entrance. When the time for the attack came (several days of holo-assault), holo-assault combined with the surprise of a few Jem'Hadar coming through a hole in the rock face would be enough. If possible, there would be more than one tunnel being dug.

Weapons Platforms

I would never rely on a weapon that was so easily disabled by one feat of technobabble. No matter how great the gain, I would never rely on something that could be defeated by one act of "kryptonite". The resources for weapons platforms would be allocated to building ships, or traditional planet-based weapons emplacements which do not have such a glaring weakness.

Starfleet Command

Assuming the Breen also under my command, rather than destroy Starfleet HQ, I would have beamed in and taken hostages. The pursuing Starfleet vessels probably would not have the gut to kill their precious Admirals. Safely in Dominion territory, the Admirals could then be tortured or used as negotiation cards.

Betazed

Given the Dominion willingness to execute large numbers of the civilian populace on Cardassia, there's no reason why they should use this tactic as a last resort. Execute the entire planet. "Fear will keep the local systems in line", or in this case split them apart. Federation member planet defections would be massive.

Sacrifice of Angels

I would have ignored Rom's mines, and plowed through with my 5000 battleships. So who the fuck cares if a few hundred of them die. The Alpha Quadrant is mine.

As a paranoid commander, I would never have trusted the Cardassians. I would have put them on the flanks of my fleet, away from the battle as a reserve rather than the center. When they betrayed me, they would be in no position to alter the outcome.

Brian

[The Grim Squeaker]

In the rotj commanders case i wouldnt have tortured and frightened the entire native population,:roll:

when i know that im going to be under attack by a guerilla strike force and that i can gain the whole species adulation by giving them any broken down old droid i have lying around.
(imagines the ewoks barbecuing Chewwy

[Bounty]

Betazed

Given the Dominion willingness to execute large numbers of the civilian populace on Cardassia, there's no reason why they should use this tactic as a last resort. Execute the entire planet. "Fear will keep the local systems in line", or in this case split them apart. Federation member planet defections would be massive.

The genocide on Cardassia didn't start until the final hours of the war, when the Founder was going insane and wanted revenge on the Cardies.

And what would mass-killings of Betazeds accomplish ? Convince the rest of the Federation that their best option is to fight, because any Dominion occupation will lead to bloodshed anyway ?

Leave the Betazeds alive as long as they supply resources. Then give the Fed memberworlds a choice : surrender and you live, fight and you suffer. Simple.

[brianeyci]

The genocide on Cardassia didn't start until the final hours of the war, when the Founder was going insane and wanted revenge on the Cardies.

I know this. As a ruthless Jem'Hadar commander, I wouldn't need to wait for a Founder. I would have to clear my plan with a Founder, but given their racial phobia of "solids", it would be easy to make a case.

And what would mass-killings of Betazeds accomplish ? Convince the rest of the Federation that their best option is to fight, because any Dominion occupation will lead to bloodshed anyway ?

No. Make it clear "resistance is futile". If you join the Dominion, you get trade benefits and Dominion "protection", beter than having your entire species annihilated.

Did you not get the Tarkin quote?

Leave the Betazeds alive as long as they supply resources. Then give the Fed memberworlds a choice : surrender and you live, fight and you suffer. Simple.

Too bad there weren't swaths of Federation member planets defecting to the Dominion in the show, since this is exactly what they did anyway.

Brian

[wilfulton]

ESB: Ground battle of Hoth.

Bury the shield generator beneath the ground to make it a more difficult target for the walkers to hit.

Dig a trench across the most likely avenue of approach, 1 km farther out than the AT-AT's could reach with their guns, just to piss them off. The AT-AT might be able to shrug off the heaviest blasters from the front, but sticking a foot into a trench will send the whole thing crashing down to the ground, where it's top armor becomes vulnerable (probably after its shield generator is smashed from kissing the ground too hard, or the crew is too fucked up to care whether you blast 'em or not).

Plant claymore mines (if available, improvise if not, because I'm guessing the rebels dug their base somehow) along the most likely avenues of approach for infantry (I know the fragments probably won't hurt stormtroopers through their armor, but they're loud, so the defenders will know they're coming, and no armor can protect against the demoralizing effect of being pounded by explosions).

Dig murder holes over all entrances to allow the defenders to stand above entering imperial troopers and drop heavy objects on them. Proton grenades, large chunks of ice, full garbage bags, etc. Then...there has got to be something in there that is flammable, rig a flamethrower or fougass to burn out the intruders. Snowtrooper-ka-bob.

If I can't have my "burna", then we'll have to settle for an E-web at the entrance, to hose off the incoming snowtroopers. Shouldn't have it out facing the AT-AT, we'll use the heavy blaster turrets for that, and they'll be dug into the ice, to make them smaller targets. They should only be hitting the tops of the AT-AT's anyway as they tumble into the trench of doom.

And against Star Destroyers coming in against Hoth, once disabled by the ion cannon, have the fighters engage them to fuck with them, distract them, and let the transports escape.

And oh yes, in the beginning. Safety brief, always go in buddy teams (groups of two at least, never go outside alone), and watch for wampas!

[Kuja]

ESB, from the Imperial side:

Call in half a sector fleet's worth of ships, making sure to includ Interdictors in my request, to rendezvous at the edge of the Hoth system at a particular time, then jump in together and blockade the area over Echo Base. Have as many ISDs as possible send in ground forces, not just a piddling half-dozen walkers. With the Interdictors running, my superior force could disable or destroy the frantically escaping transports at will, and the massive assault force on the ground would send the Rebels into an utter panic, not to mention the numbers would lessen the delay between landing and the destruction of the Ion Cannon and the Shield Generator. The heart of the Rebellion would be crushed like an insect, and with so many prisoners, I could interrogate the location of their fleet.

Exit the Rebels.

[The Grim Squeaker]

How would murder holes help? if theyre on top than theyll be blasted by AT-AT’s

[JointStrikeFighter]

I think he meant within the tunnels in the base, so a hole in the floor.

[Elfdart]

Hoth Rebels:

Instead of sending out one or two transports at a time, bunch them up under the shield, fire the ion cannon, then launch all at once and flood one zone, then fan out. One dazed ISD is not going to be able to hinder a jailbreak like that, and its buddies won't be much help until it's too late.

Tank -er, AT-AT ditches would be useful at about 20 kilometers. Wiring the base to explode as the last transport leaves as a final "FUCK YOU, DARTH!" would be nice.



Endor Rebels:

Once the shield is down, several fighters should stafe Imperial troops and vehicles on Endor.


Yavin Rebels:

TAILGUNNERS! If it's so hard to dodge the guns on TIE Fighters in the trench, it should be just as hard for them to dodge the swivel guns on a Y-Wing. Tyree, Dutch and Gold Five might have survived if they had tailgunners.

(This assumes that the vehicle guides are correct and Y-wings can be configured as two-seaters with a gunner.)

[dworkin]

Hoth: Empire

The aim of the battle isn't to squash the Rebels, that's just an added bonus. The aim is to catch Skywalker. So while smacking the rebels around some is needed the real priority is to locate the rebel base's ship staging area and attack that as well. Have fighter screens out so that ground cannon won't just ace the ISDs.

And focus on capturing his confidants to use to trap him. Oh wait, they did that. Maybe stop killing all my officers.

Death Star: Empire

When my advisor says there may be a risk I listen to him! When vader goes to engage the Rebels himself I send some extra squadrons to help.

TWOK: Fed

Again, when my tac officer suggests something I'll listen and raise the shields and order the Reliant to power down. NOW!

Endor Rebels: Take a fucking big bomb. As big as can go on a repulsor. If all goes to poo float bomb towards base and set off. OK, you die but that shield had to come down at all cost.

Endor Empire: Free fire zone around all bits of the base. Camera's to show those inside what's going on outside (so they have a clue as to what's going on). If the camera's go out you stay locked up until Palpy or Vader knock on the door.